Hi to all. It is my first post here, I registered only some days ago but I am lurker since almost an year. As the first thing I want to thank you all for these beautiful community, here I feel i can discuss topics and feeling I can't even nominate with other people in real life. Sorry for my bad English. Now quick to the point...I got my hands on 14.5 grams of T (Thiopental/pentothal/thiopentone) as powder for injection. I have read on pph that is possibile to use it as N alternative, since it is a strong barbituric. I am gonna take together with probenecid cause it seems to prolong the effect of thiopental. Maybe i will take also 1 gr of dilantin. From my knowledge and asking to a pharmacology professor i know thiopental should be more lipophilic than Pentobarbital (N) and should be well absorbed by Gastrointestinal tract. What do you think about this plan? is T a valid alternative to N or should I buy N with D or A? the other problem is that half of the vials of thiopentone i have are expired (august 2020) but from what I learnt here, powder barbiturate can last for years after the expiration date reported on the vials, even though I kept them in a room in a dry and dark place but with temperature slightly upper than what is reccomended (30 °C, here summer is very hot). Any suggestion would be very appreciated.
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Is anybody also registered to exit international forum? Would be so kind to ask a question for me?
I would want to ask more clarification about what PPH says but I am not registered to it and I can't (less than 50 years old)
I'm doing my research but i would feel safer if someone can help me in this field.
I would want to ask more clarification about what PPH says but I am not registered to it and I can't (less than 50 years old)
I'm doing my research but i would feel safer if someone can help me in this field.
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esoterispeec
Student
- Nov 20, 2020
- 130
Thiopental Isn't orally bioavailabe, it can only be used intravenously. Intravenously the LD50 for humans is 6.5g, but orally its probably like 100g. Feel free to pm me.
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It is used as intravenous cause it is an anhestethic but is also orally available- pentothal is also know as truth serum (and was used orally for this porpouse). to quote PPH page 443:
The powder can be dissolved in water and takenorally with rapid effect. 10gm of the drug (the contents of 20 ampoules) dissolves rapidly in~5Oml of water, and if drunk leads to rapid loss of consciousness and death. Alcoholis a useful supplement.
Why do you say it is not orally available?
@esoterispeec
Can't PM to you, maybe it's because I am a new member
The powder can be dissolved in water and takenorally with rapid effect. 10gm of the drug (the contents of 20 ampoules) dissolves rapidly in~5Oml of water, and if drunk leads to rapid loss of consciousness and death. Alcoholis a useful supplement.
Why do you say it is not orally available?
@esoterispeec
Can't PM to you, maybe it's because I am a new member
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intr0verse
Experienced
- Jan 29, 2021
- 222
And do you think some answers here by non-expert people would be more valuable then PPH and the opinion of a pharmacology professor? Same if you would have access to the PPH forum whose members are not experts neither. Philip Nitschke's view on the issue is in the book so, you have all the answers.
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the professor tbh (i checked the email) said that is well absorbed but undergoes to a first pass metabolism (hepatic) of 50% but he added that also pentobarbital undergoes to same process.
anyway you are pretty much right- but I am wondering if I can obtain access to the forum can I also get in touch with PN or "staff member" via email?
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intr0verse
Experienced
- Jan 29, 2021
- 222
The staff members there are, just like here, simple, non-expert people willing to give their time to moderating a forum. You wont get expert answers from them. Regarding Philip, i dont think his view on the matter has changed from the book he authored.
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Ok, I thought staff member were also expert people. Thanks for replying, you are letting me know I am overthinking...
I checked out on exit forum official page:
I checked out on exit forum official page:
- Follow-up questions arising from the Peaceful Pill eHandbook
- Exchange of views with fellow forum members around the world
- Answers to questions directly from Exit Experts on related issues (bearing legal constraints in mind)
- Making new friends & enjoying a support network with folk of like mind
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Here is an article that explain well the pharmacology and the structure of barbiturates
As we can see thiopental is just a pentobarbital with a solphur atom instead of an oxigen one. the solphur atom makes it even more lipophilic. in human body a secondary metabolic way of elimination of thiopental is desulfuration to pentobarbital. it means that a little % of thiopental is converted to pentobarbital.
as you can see in the following article the use of a hepatic microsomal enzyme inhibitor like cimetidine seems to increase this pathway (conversion to pentobarbital) decreasing the conversion of thiopental to its major inactive metabolite (carboxylic acid analogue).
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.
"The desulfuration of thiopental to pentobarbital has previously been shown to be a relatively minor pathway of thiopental metabolism. In two cases, we observed significant conversion, resulting in blood pentobarbital concentrations up to 50 percent of total blood barbiturate (thiopental and pentobarbital) concentrations. Both patients received continuous infusions of thiopental and had present a condition (hypothermia) or drug (cimetidine) known to inhibit hepatic microsomal enzyme activity. It is suggested that inhibition of hepatic microsomal enzyme activity may prevent thiopental's metabolism to its major metabolite, a carboxylic acid analogue, and increase the amount of thiopental desulfurated to pentobarbital. Inhibition of hepatic microsomal metabolism also decreases the metabolism of pentobarbital. Until further elucidation of the causes of altered thiopental metabolism is available to identify patients more likely to have elevated concentrations of pentobarbital, monitoring of blood drug concentrations in patients receiving thiopental should include determination of both thiopental and pentobarbital concentrations."
this is what i found searching online on appropriate sources
this means that also cimetidine seems to decrease the metabolism of pentobarbital ( thus producing higher levels of the drugs in the blood)
PS: I don't think we can draw conclusions with just a single article on 2 cases but this evidence is interesting.
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esoterispeec
Student
- Nov 20, 2020
- 130
do you know what the difference is between Pentobarbital sodium salt vs Pentobarbital?
Here is an article that explain well the pharmacology and the structure of barbiturates
View attachment 66409 View attachment 66410
As we can see thiopental is just a pentobarbital with a solphur atom instead of an oxigen one. the solphur atom makes it even more lipophilic. in human body a secondary metabolic way of elimination of thiopental is desulfuration to pentobarbital. it means that a little % of thiopental is converted to pentobarbital.
View attachment 66411
as you can see in the following article the use of a hepatic microsomal enzyme inhibitor like cimetidine seems to increase this pathway (conversion to pentobarbital) decreasing the conversion of thiopental to its major inactive metabolite (carboxylic acid analogue).
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.journals.sagepub.com
"The desulfuration of thiopental to pentobarbital has previously been shown to be a relatively minor pathway of thiopental metabolism. In two cases, we observed significant conversion, resulting in blood pentobarbital concentrations up to 50 percent of total blood barbiturate (thiopental and pentobarbital) concentrations. Both patients received continuous infusions of thiopental and had present a condition (hypothermia) or drug (cimetidine) known to inhibit hepatic microsomal enzyme activity. It is suggested that inhibition of hepatic microsomal enzyme activity may prevent thiopental's metabolism to its major metabolite, a carboxylic acid analogue, and increase the amount of thiopental desulfurated to pentobarbital. Inhibition of hepatic microsomal metabolism also decreases the metabolism of pentobarbital. Until further elucidation of the causes of altered thiopental metabolism is available to identify patients more likely to have elevated concentrations of pentobarbital, monitoring of blood drug concentrations in patients receiving thiopental should include determination of both thiopental and pentobarbital concentrations."
this is what i found searching online on appropriate sources
this means that also cimetidine seems to decrease the metabolism of pentobarbital ( thus producing higher levels of the drugs in the blood)
PS: I don't think we can draw conclusions with just a single article on 2 cases but this evidence is interesting.
Upvote
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intr0verse
Experienced
- Jan 29, 2021
- 222
Pentobarbital is an acid, doesn't dissolve in water but only slightly in ethanol, doesn't get absorbed by the GI tract hence, it can't be used for self-deliverance. Pentobarbital sodium is a salt, dissolves well in water and ethanol, is well absorbed by the GI tract and can be used for self-deliverance.
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