Discussion (Theory) suicide is an evolved trait

[cleanchris]

Suicide is thought to be a weird side effect of higher intelligence, however if it had no purpose it probably would not be so common and ubiquitous. I believe it evolved as a way for (1) men who were useless to the tribe (permanently injured, too old, disfigured, ext) to ride themselves from the tribe (who he would have been closely related to) and ensure their survival (2) allow women who were being neglected to revive the attention and resources they need (Women are automatically important to a tribe due to childbirth)

Curious what you guys think

 

[Fadeawaaaay]

It's possible. I wonder how much suicide existed in our ancient ancestors anyway. I wonder what suicide rates are like with "primitive "tribes of people currently living. I suspect suicide rates are much lower. If you're a member of a tribe you probably have plenty to do, acceptance, a role to play, plenty of support.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Suicide is thought to be a weird side effect of higher intelligence, however if it had no purpose it probably would not be so common and ubiquitous. I believe it evolved as a way for (1) men who were useless to the tribe (permanently injured, too old, disfigured, ext) to ride themselves from the tribe (who he would have been closely related to) and ensure their survival (2) allow women who were being neglected to revive the attention and resources they need (Women are automatically important to a tribe due to childbirth)

Curious what you guys think

Having trouble since there are many ways to interpret what you wrote. I'm guessing you mean that male suicide will cause effect 1 and 2. If not, I think you actually meant 2 to be the result an unsuccessful attempt made by a woman (she can't get resources/attention when she is dead).

I don't really buy that there's a big difference between sexes for the evolutionary reasons behind suicide. Seems like both men and women ctb for similar reasons. Just so happens that men do it more since they are, in most situations, more expendable (genetically speaking). In some countries women are doing it more, I'd expect them to do it less than men in a natural setting.

 

[Smart No More]

I guess maybe it could be a sign of intelligence in that it (suicide) is a logical conclusion for someone to come to and accept when you're no longer useful to anyone or yourself. Many people live that way for years into a natural death seemingly oblivious or in some kind of ongoing longing so for someone to identify the actuality of thing maybe does take a certain higher intellect. That said, I wonder if that makes SI less of an issue for someone of higher intellect.
Having been someone of relatively high intelect I certainly feel some relation to this theory but it also highlights the fact that there is quite a void to pass between useful and useless and therefore ready. SI therefore still an issue. SI is useful when you have your health and then cruel and useless when you don't. To truly surpass SI at the right time would certainly be a sign of evolution which could be perceived as an inteligence in itself when actually it's believed by science to be a simple form of cause and effect however, if it does in fact become more easily overcome by somebody in their lowest eb of usefulness then maybe that indicates intelligence afterall. Bit of a feedback loop in the mix there.

 

[Somber]

There is an entire wikipedia page on suicide in antiquity with a variety of opinions and views from Socrates or Plato to the biblical interpretation:
Suicide in Antiquity (Wikipedia)

 

[cleanchris]

Having trouble since there are many ways to interpret what you wrote. I'm guessing you mean that male suicide will cause effect 1 and 2. If not, I think you actually meant 2 to be the result an unsuccessful attempt made by a woman (she can't get resources/attention when she is dead).

I don't really buy that there's a big difference between sexes for the evolutionary reasons behind suicide. Seems like both men and women ctb for similar reasons. Just so happens that men do it more since they are, in most situations, more expendable (genetically speaking). In some countries women are doing it more, I'd expect them to do it less than men in a natural setting.

I was attempting to explain the suicide gap (women attempt suicide more but men are more successful due to differing methods, leading some to believe female suicide is usually more of a call for help) my theory is that female suicide is more of a threat to the group, like "if you don't treat me better, I'll remove myself from the group and not make children" which could have a very real impact in a tribe of ~150 members

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I was attempting to explain the suicide gap (women attempt suicide more but men are more successful due to differing methods, leading some to believe female suicide is usually more of a call for help) my theory is that female suicide is more of a threat to the group, like "if you don't treat me better, I'll remove myself from the group and not make children" which could have a very real impact in a tribe of ~150 members

I think the gap is just a biproduct of less testosterone and shit. The theory is basically that men are wired to have a different strat altogether, well-known. I'm sure ppl can read about this in actual science (I am tipsy).

I think women making a lot of shitty attempts are due to hormone/brain differences rather than connected to suicide, biproducts of other shit. I think if everyone had N women in a bad spot may end up ctbing similar to men in same spot.

I am agree with women more valuable. We have twice as many female ancestors. But men and women are still very similar biologically. (Same-same, but different lol).

 

[Snake of Eden]

It also used to be much more prevalent in the past to die than to survive. Modern advancement in medicine and agriculture, hygiene practices and way of living made it easier to survive and live for long. Everything in modern civilizations resulted in less deaths and unnaturally extended life spans. I dont feel suicide was more prevalent in the past. Also it is a cultural thing. Some societies and cultures just dont have any place for suicide in them and some do put alot of emphasis on it.

 

[Depressed Cat]

Suicide is indeed an evolved trait, it has to be. Survival instinct is natural to all animals and it is very strong.

Suicide is also a sign of will power, for the mind requires great will to overcome the strong inbuilt survival instinct.

Men commit suicide more often than women, but women make more suicide attempts. This means men are more successful attempting to CTB. This may be because women use less lethal methods.

It can also mean that the survival instinct of women is stronger than that of men. This is quite natural if you think of it, because women are more important to the survival of the species than men.

 

[Darkover]

suicide a natural reaction to disease sickness loss hardship it's the easy way out provided you have the right method to use, life is enslaved in awful poop it's a hellhole too

 

[blueclover_.]

Suicide is thought to be a weird side effect of higher intelligence, however if it had no purpose it probably would not be so common and ubiquitous. I believe it evolved as a way for (1) men who were useless to the tribe (permanently injured, too old, disfigured, ext) to ride themselves from the tribe (who he would have been closely related to) and ensure their survival (2) allow women who were being neglected to revive the attention and resources they need (Women are automatically important to a tribe due to childbirth)

Curious what you guys think

I do think suicide is a result of higher intelligence, because to resist survival instinct requires mental capability of understanding the diagram of pain and pleasure.

I disagree that men and women evolved suicidality for different reasons based on cultural roles. Suicidal thoughts are purely born because the subject knows that suffering comes alongside life, and that has nothing to do with gender roles in human societies. Even dolphins are capable of being suicidal, and dolphins are known to be one of the smartest animals.

Personally, i am tired of people (mostly men) correlating everything with sex. Humans are much more than pp and vagene.

 

[Nightmare Painting]

If it's a evolutionary trait then it's a useless one because the people who do the most damage and cause the most suffering to humanity as a whole are the sociopaths sitting at the top that don't commit suicide.

 

[Smart No More]

If it's a evolutionary trait then it's a useless one because the people who do the most damage and cause the most suffering to humanity as a whole are the sociopaths sitting at the top that don't commit suicide.

Sometimes evolution isn't beneficial. We may be witnessing the ddying out of a species. It happens. It may be that we're both too clever and/or too greedy and narcissistic for our own good. Like a snake eating it's tail.

 

[Ta555]

Personally I don't think it's an evolved biological trait but a cultural one. There have been many cultures in the past where suicide was seen as honourable and encouraged in some instances. Like think about the harakiri of samurai in medieval Japan for example. Even right up to the mid 20th century it was ok to kill yourself while serving like the kamikaze.
In the early days of Christianity many killed themselves just to get to the promised heaven.
In some cultures older people would take themselves out into the wilderness to die from hyperthermia and/or starvation when they thought they were now a burden rather than an asset to the tribe.
I don't think there's a biological drive to suicide in anyone for no reason (there's always a reason behind it) but cultural pressure or norms make it really easy when you decide you've had enough.

 

[Smart No More]

I personally feel a biological urge to ctb so it's hard for me to agree entirely with that however it alerts me to the possibility that there's various motivational factors for suicide and therefore may well me a lot more complicated than evolution. It could actually be both an evolutionary trait and and a cultural thing. That is to say that the effect can be from multiple and varied causes.

 

[Insomniac]

In some cultures older people would take themselves out into the wilderness to die from hyperthermia and/or starvation when they thought they were now a burden rather than an asset to the tribe

wow. I didn't know that. Nice..

We have twice as many female ancestors

we have twice as many female ancestors?

@cleanchris, here is a super cool article I read a few years ago relating to the topic https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...depends-an-evolutionary-theory-about-suicide/

Having been someone of relatively high intelect

I'll sound a bit generic but why do we insist on defining intellect by the intensity level of fruitless mental gymnastics..? most people who are called smart are people who achieve nothing. the "smart" "but" "lazy" myth.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

These evolutionary theories always have so many holes in them its like reading your horoscope.

Suicide is and always has been such a marginal phenomenon that it hardly has any statistical importance. It's a rare occurance, an anomaly in the matrix that speaks of extraordinary people in extraordinary situations. With substances like N it gets so easy that even non extraordinary people are capable of doing it.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

we have twice as many female ancestors?

Think so, yeah. Basically, your average man would either have died an incel or had sex with two women. Not sure if this is before or after the agricultural revolution, though. Is probably that 2:1 was the relatively egalitarian stat for hunter-gatherers (guys got sick/injured, went out to protect the tribe, etc) and that the extreme brutality of agricultural revolution/industrial revolution/digital revolution won't show up (since the human genome is so old). The last wouldn't even show up, since it involves a few guys engaging in "serial monogamy"/casual sex with condoms/abortions/etc with tens or hundreds of women, whilst as many men watch porn and drink SN.

 

[Insomniac]

Think so, yeah. Basically, your average man would either have died an incel or had sex with two women. Not sure if this is before or after the agricultural revolution, though. Is probably that 2:1 was the relatively egalitarian stat for hunter-gatherers (guys got sick/injured, went out to protect the tribe, etc) and that the extreme brutality of agricultural revolution/industrial revolution/digital revolution won't show up (since the human genome is so old). The last wouldn't even show up, since it involves a few guys engaging in "serial monogamy"/casual sex with condoms/abortions/etc with tens or hundreds of women, whilst as many men watch porn and drink SN.

hmm, I see... I guess it's totally possible, especially in muslim countries where men have up to 4 wives, leaving all the other me to rot lol.

well, this is interesting. I never thought of that, suddenly I feel superior.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I never thought of that, suddenly I feel superior.

Not sure how that follows, but it's good that you feel good about yourself.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

hmm, I see... I guess it's totally possible, especially in muslim countries where men have up to 4 wives, leaving all the other me to rot lol.

Not just that but they marry their freaking cousins for allahs sake.

Cousin marriage in the Middle East - Wikipedia

Cousin marriage in the Middle East - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Polygamy for the win.

 

[NeverReallyHere]

Yeah, the idea that old and less physically-able people are useless is, I suspect, something early humans would generally have looked on with bemusement. These people can still carry out many essential and time-consuming tasks like making tools, clothing, etc and can also look after the young, freeing up more time for the other adults in the group to gather food. Also they will have knowledge, skills and experience which might prove invaluable to the long-term survival of the group. We often see evidence of horrific injuries in the remains of prehistoric humans which were sustained, and healed, years before the individual's actual death, indicating that badly injured people were cared for and not just allowed to die. Also, from what I've read, suicide is extremely rare in contemporary hunter-gatherer societies, leading me to believe that it is largely a phenomenon of agricultural, "settled" societies.

 

[Insomniac]

Not just that but they marry their freaking cousins for allahs sake.

lol I myself live in a Muslim country and well over 50% of marriage in my family are between cousins... and yes, I'm talking about first cousins.

sooo idk man, people are weird. I don't even know how you can look your brother or sister in the eyes after your children have married each other. It's extremely unsettling to me. I simply avoid or stop talking to them when they do that.

I'm just lucky that my parents didn't do something so atrocious.

Not sure how that follows, but it's good that you feel good about yourself.

I was joking don't worry

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

lol I myself live in a Muslim country and well over 50% of marriage in my family are between cousins... and yes, I'm talking about first cousins.

sooo idk man, people are weird. I don't even know how you can look your brother or sister in the eyes after your children have married each other. It's extremely unsettling to me. I simply avoid or stop talking to them when they do that.

Are people in your country aware of the fact that each generation gets sicker and sicker as a direct result of this inbreeding?

 

[Insomniac]

Are people in your country aware of the fact that each generation gets sicker and sicker as a direct result of this inbreeding?

most of them are healthy and they use that as an excuse. the cases of diseases are surprisingly rare. They don't marry only first cousin, they marry second cousin or third cousins too. they like to say that people have been doing this since the dawn of time and still survived.

but it's still horrifying from an ethical standpoint. it's extremely depraved thing to do for people who claim themselves to be so moral. It's not even encouraged by Islam. Islam simply doesn't forbid it, but doesn't encourage it either. they litteraly have no excuse and probably do it out of pure lust because there is a theory about intense suppressed sexual attraction between relatives.

from that Wikipedia page : the Quran, Sura An-Nisa (Q.4:22-5) gives a fairly detailed list of what sort of marriages are prohibited in Islam, (including "... your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and brother's daughters, and sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers ...

Lawful to you are all beyond these".

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I personally feel a biological urge to ctb so it's hard for me to agree entirely with that however it alerts me to the possibility that there's various motivational factors for suicide and therefore may well me a lot more complicated than evolution. It could actually be both an evolutionary trait and and a cultural thing. That is to say that the effect can be from multiple and varied causes.

Your wording intrigues me... "biological urge to ctb." I've always thought of suicide as a psychological desire, not a biological one. In fact, our biology typically sees us try to preserve our life at all costs. Can you explain more about what you mean?

Suicide is and always has been such a marginal phenomenon that it hardly has any statistical importance. It's a rare occurance, an anomaly in the matrix that speaks of extraordinary people in extraordinary situations. With substances like N it gets so easy that even non extraordinary people are capable of doing it.

I think the rarity of it in the story of human existence speaks to its potential for being something specific to "extraordinary" people, and I don't necessarily mean that in a positive sense, just in a factual one. I have come to believe that humans with exceptional capacity for critical thought and understanding of their insignificance in the vastness of space-time would be more likely than not to come to the conclusion that life is - to put it simply - not worth it. At least, if one received no direct benefit out of life, then there would be no reason to carry on it with it. A simpler mind might be happier accepting traditional wisdom about life as a gift or succumbing to primal urges for survival and reproduction. I say this in full knowledge of my immense bias. I'm sure people with a passion for life could come up with arguments that I am at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder for wanting to die.

Nonetheless, I find this line of thought fascinating. I like that we have some historical accounts of philosophy regarding suicide. Is anyone aware of significant examples of suicide in nature by non-humans? I think that would put the evolutionary discussion in greater context.

 

[Smart No More]

Your wording intrigues me... "biological urge to ctb." I've always thought of suicide as a psychological desire, not a biological one. In fact, our biology typically sees us try to preserve our life at all costs. Can you explain more about what you mean?

Biological drive may be the wrong term tbf. I was replying directly to Ta555's comments saying that the reason for people's suicide is down to social norms and societal pressures because for me it's not those things. However the term I used doesn't quite fit what I mean so I should have rephrased. Basically I was healthy and very happy, living a good life, full of potential and had no reason to be suicidal until my health, memory and cognition were severely impacted by something and it took away any quality of life to the point where I'm just existing. In fact the only thing stopping me from ctb at the moment is my loved ones and the concern I have for the impact it would have on them. Therefore my reason and urge to ctb is a result of biological problems. I didn't mean for it to sound like I considered it a biologically programmed thing and there was no other reason. Back on that theory point though, I don't think it's possible to rule out biological programming in some form as it would still theoretically and logically require a certain sef of cercumstances to be met before it was to be triggered. Similar to fight or flight, fear, anger, happiness and any other emotional trigger for a complex series of chemical reactions to occur in your body and start a chain of events that may appear mental in origin but really are not. For me, there is no point in me living in constant suffering from my health issues as there isn't any escape or potential improvements so the logical conclusion really is death and if it won't happen naturally my instinct is to pull the switch myself. That instinct comes from somewhere and it isn't social pressure or any other outside influence. I guess it may be psychological in its logic but triggered by my biological state.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

there is a theory about suppressed sexual attraction between relatives.

These theories must be popular where you live lol. That said, my sister did try to boink me, but she is a sick hoe.

Your wording intrigues me... "biological urge to ctb." I've always thought of suicide as a psychological desire, not a biological one. In fact, our biology typically sees us try to preserve our life at all costs. Can you explain more about what you mean?

Human's are psychophysical entities. There are no health issues that would be strictly either biological or psychological. Everything affects everything.

 

[Snake of Eden]

These theories must be popular where you live lol. That said, my sister did try to boink me, but she is a sick hoe.

OMG this must be next level traumatizing. I always say if i can pick only one thing that i can eradicate from human experience it would be incest. It is just really really gross. I would kill myself instantly if that ever happened to me

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

OMG this must be next level traumatizing. I always say if i can pick only one thing that i can eradicate from human experience it would be incest. It is just really really gross. I would kill myself instantly if that ever happened to me

Not traumatizing, more like very funny and very sad. She is a manipulative sick lil bitch and i guess she thought i was so desperately lonely that i would sleep even with my own sister. Then she could manipulate me through that. What an absolutely sad clown of a human being.

That said, being a pretty open minded person, i don't see anything wrong with consensual incest per se, as long as birth control is taken care of.

It's just that it's impossible for me to imagine any scenario where that would happen in the real world, which wouldn't be between two totally fucked up people.