Discussion The two reasons for antacid during SN?

[PhilosOfDoom]

1. From reading from here - Harvey, M., Cave, G., & Chanwai, G. (2010). Fatal methaemoglobinaemia induced by self-poisoning with sodium nitrite. Emergency Medicine Australasia, 22(5), 463–465. doi:10.1111/j.1742-6723.2010.01335.x https://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1742-6723.2010.01335.x
The patient after ingesting Sodium Nitrite had lactic acid levels 9.6 mmol/L, which is almost 6 mmol/L higher than the minimum levels to suffer from Lactic Acidosis. It seems to brought upon by cellular impairment due to lowered oxygen to cells, metheamoglobinaemia. Both lactic acidosis and metheamoglobinaemia share similar symptoms, but
it seems that Lactic Acidosis is responsible for most of the body weakness and discomfort. Lactic acidosis would subside after failing or recovering, due to the regeneration of hemoglobin. Antacids would lower the levels of acidosis.

2. The reason stated in Stans Guide, and the main reason. I'll simply quote it, it's much more easy. "In your stomach there is something called gastric juices, one of the components of this juice is hydrochloric acid (HCL). When SN mixes with HCL, it converts to regular salt (NaCL). There isn't enough HCL in your stomach to convert all the recommended dose, but it will reduce it." Interestingly, gastric juices carry lactic acid. And, with the conversion to salt, it actually also can cause stomach discomfort.

I found the lactic acid bit interesting. It wouldn't have been important enough to mention in the guide, but it just gives an even better reason to use them. I don't know if this was already known, but I didn't. If I missed anything, or said something wrong/false, then please comment. Thoughts?

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

EDIT: The loss of oxygen seems to be responsible for most if not all of the discomfort, so SN itself. Lactic acid is a mild cause if it does factor into the discomfort.
EDIT 2: The antacids are not "recommended," anymore. The antacids may or may not influence the lactic acids within the gastric. However, the gastric does not seem to be a notable culprit in that regard. As sn does not seem to agitate the lactic levels within the gastric. This is still presently being research.
EDIT 3: What I meant by lower levels of lactate, I meant within the gastric juices, not the muscles.

 

[Indieblue]

Interesting thread.

 

[one4all]

@PhilosOfDoom Thank you for sharing. And know i hate you because i have to do more research into that LOL J/K
Seriously though. I appreciate the knowledge and you sharing it with the community!

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

@PhilosOfDoom Thank you for sharing. And know i hate you because i have to do more research into that LOL J/K
Seriously though. I appreciate the knowledge and you sharing it with the community!

I'll be honest, I barely even knew what metheamoglobinaemia, lactic acid, nor most of the process of sn prior to the post. Most of it was just a couple hours of articles, like what hypoperfusion meant, the symptoms of excess lactic acid, etc. Quarky00 helped with answering any questions I had. Thanks to you for constantly helping out members here!

 

[one4all]

I'll be honest, I barely even knew what metheamoglobinaemia, lactic acid, nor most of the process of sn prior to the post. Most of it was just a couple hours of articles, like what hypoperfusion meant, the symptoms of excess lactic acid, etc. Quarky00 helped with answering any questions I had. Thanks to you for constantly helping out members here!

I felt Quarky00 was involved or would get involved one way or another. Quarky00 has been enlightening a lot of people with the research she/he has done.

Unfortunately at this time i'm out of Quarky00 's will

@Quarky00 PROPS to ya

 

[ZardozOmega]

Very interesting, but I'm not sure if oral anti-acids would counteract lactic acidosis.

 

[one4all]

Very interesting, but I'm not sure if oral anti-acids would counteract lactic acidosis.

Are you referring to Tagamet\Cimetidine ?

 

[ZardozOmega]

Are you referring to Tagamet\Cimetidine ?

Any anti-acid. I could be wrong, tho.

 

[Roger]

Lactic acid (lactate) builds up in the muscles during exercise. It will not be affected by digestive antacids.

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

Lactic acid (lactate) builds up in the muscles during exercise. It will not be affected by digestive antacids.

While I do not entirely agree, as gastric juices do contain Lactic acid; https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(70)80148-2/pdf. It seems after reviewing Stan's guide, SN itself doesn't seem to increase or agitate gastric juices, the gastric merely converts SN to salt. So I'd say it seems your correct in the regard that it wouldn't help too much, but I'm still debating whether it may still decrease or otherwise effect lactic in the gastric. I'll update. Do you have any research or sources? I may be wrong, and would like to if that is the case.

 

[ZardozOmega]

While I do not entirely agree, as gastric juices do contain Lactic acid; https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(70)80148-2/pdf. It seems after reviewing Stan's guide, SN itself doesn't seem to increase or agitate gastric juices, the gastric merely converts SN to salt. So I'd say it seems your correct in the regard that it wouldn't help too much, but I'm still debating whether it may still decrease or otherwise effect lactic in the gastric. I'll update.

Isn't lactic acid present in yoghurt and other fermented milk products? I'm not sure if reducing the amount of lactic acid in the gastric juices will lead to any change in the blood-levels of lactic acid.

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

Isn't lactic acid present in yoghurt and other fermented milk products? I'm not sure if reducing the amount of gastric acid in the gastric juices will lead to any change in the blood-levels of lactic acid.

By gastric acid I presume you mean lactic? I guess I mistakenly didn't finish writing the sentence. By " Antacids would lower the levels of acidosis" I meant within the gastric, not mmol/l levels. Thanks for noticing!

 

[ZardozOmega]

By gastric acid I presume you mean lactic? I guess I mistakenly didn't finish writing the sentence. By " Antacids would lower the levels of acidosis" I meant within the gastric, not mmol/l levels. Thanks for noticing!

yes, I meant lactic acid, sorry for the mistake

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

yes, I meant lactic acid, sorry for the mistake

Nah man, no worries. I've been using the longer "lactic acid" version instead of "lactate", if I used the latter then the issues may have been negated. I am not a good spell/proof checker, so it helps

 

[Jumper Geo]

1. From reading from here - Harvey, M., Cave, G., & Chanwai, G. (2010). Fatal methaemoglobinaemia induced by self-poisoning with sodium nitrite. Emergency Medicine Australasia, 22(5), 463–465. doi:10.1111/j.1742-6723.2010.01335.x https://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1742-6723.2010.01335.x
The patient after ingesting Sodium Nitrite had lactic acid levels 9.6 mmol/L, which is almost 6 mmol/L higher than the minimum levels to suffer from Lactic Acidosis. It seems to brought upon by cellular impairment due to lowered oxygen to cells, metheamoglobinaemia. Both lactic acidosis and metheamoglobinaemia share similar symptoms, but
it seems that Lactic Acidosis is responsible for most of the body weakness and discomfort. Lactic acidosis would subside after failing or recovering, due to the regeneration of hemoglobin. Antacids would lower the levels of acidosis.

2. The reason stated in Stans Guide, and the main reason. I'll simply quote it, it's much more easy. "In your stomach there is something called gastric juices, one of the components of this juice is hydrochloric acid (HCL). When SN mixes with HCL, it converts to regular salt (NaCL). There isn't enough HCL in your stomach to convert all the recommended dose, but it will reduce it." Interestingly, gastric juices carry lactic acid. And, with the conversion to salt, it actually also can cause stomach discomfort.

I found the lactic acid bit interesting. It wouldn't have been important enough to mention in the guide, but it just gives an even better reason to use them. I don't know if this was already known, but I didn't. If I missed anything, or said something wrong/false, then please comment. Thoughts?

Interesting I can see you have done your research, tbh I helped support two people who ctb on Tuesday and Wednesday and they used the SN method and of course followed Stan's method and guide and they were successful, one of them was the fastest and most peaceful I have heard of, 16 minutes to be unconscious, so when my time comes I will be following Stan's guide to the letter, for something so cheap and easy to obtain I think I rather be with it than without.

Cheers Geo

 

[Quarky00]

Unfortunately at this time i'm out of Quarky00 's will

Come back one year!

I felt Quarky00 was involved or would get involved one way or another.

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

Interesting I can see you have done your research, tbh I helped support two people who ctb on Tuesday and Wednesday and they used the SN method and of course followed Stan's method and guide and they were successful, one of them was the fastest and most peaceful I have heard of, 16 minutes to be unconscious, so when my time comes I will be following Stan's guide to the letter, for something so cheap and easy to obtain I think I rather be with it than without.

Cheers Geo

Are you in the US? From what I've heard, A was still... finicky, to say the least. Perhaps, I'm wrong. Haven't looked in a minute.

 

[mpnf]

Are you in the US? From what I've heard, A was still... finicky, to say the least. Perhaps, I'm wrong. Haven't looked in a minute.

Who is A please? And what do you mean by finicky or delicate in what way?

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

Who is A please? And what do you mean by finicky or delicate in what way?

A is a supplier/source. He was very unreliable for a while, e.g only 1 bottle arriving, lower quantities of sn then ordered, etc. He was very good around late 2019, then went bad for a while, he might've gotten better, but I am not too sure. You may want to use the search function for that. He's in the pph, but can't give out the email myself. Give the latest or second to latest a look.

 

[SugarbushMtn]

PPIs like Prilosec completely stop acid production in the stomach but take several days to work fully. SN is also absorbed more readily at a higher pH than is normally found in the stomach so PPIs should help absorption. Your body does become acidotic during SN poisoning and oral antacids will do little to change that but they will do some. IV sodium bicarb is what is given for systemic metabolic acidosis like during SN poisoning or a heart attack. CO2 is also an acid.

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

PPIs like Prilosec completely stop acid production in the stomach but take several days to work fully. SN is also absorbed more readily at a higher pH than is normally found in the stomach so PPIs should help absorption. Your body does become acidotic during SN poisoning and oral antacids will do little to change that but they will do some. IV sodium bicarb is what is given for systemic metabolic acidosis like during SN poisoning or a heart attack. CO2 is also an acid.

Looked it up, and it seems you're on to something. Lactate seems to increase digestively when ingesting foods/liquids, https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/ext/dw/101320317/PDF/101320317.pdf. I did read about sodium bicarbonate, baking soda a bit. But the increase in lactic seems normal following digestion. And, apparently, ppi's will only inhibit 60% of acid secretions after 5 days. I'll update a bit later once I find out more. Thank you!
EDIT 4: Baking soda, an antacid, seems to normalize pH balance within the e.g stomach, and fastens digestion. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) does seem to lessen acidity within your digestive tract, which does include lactic, even if mild. And from more reading, it does seem to buffer lactic acid within the blood vessels and muscles; https://healthfully.com/408081-reco...r-alkalizing-lactic-acid-when-exercising.html
https://www.livestrong.com/article/485588-baking-soda-for-sore-muscles/. I am recommending it. The downsides are nonexistent if mixed with water unless you consume in excess, and it has upsides of mild-high significance. Please reply with sources if any disagreement occurs. Either take a capsule, or in powder form. Take it within 1 hour of eating it, not before; http://baking-soda.us/eating-baking-soda.html

 

[one4all]

Come back one year!

Come back in one year?? Damn i don't think i will be around a year from now. Is there anyway we can make amends?

And you always get pulled back in. I do believe you have made a name for yourself around here.

 

[Quarky00]

PPIs like Prilosec completely stop acid production in the stomach but take several days to work fully. SN is also absorbed more readily at a higher pH than is normally found in the stomach so PPIs should help absorption

False .

Read FAQ , plenty of research against that .

PPIs harm SN absorption (not to a worrying level- don't stop treatment)

 

[PhilosOfDoom]

EDIT 5: Taking back the "fastens digestion", I can't re-find my source for that bit. It helps with indigestion, and upset stomach. I'd venture to say you should let your body naturally process it, the lactate during digestion is released for a reason. The gastric juices is understandable due to the conversion to salt, but lactic acid release within the stomach is there a for a reason, and is secreted from the gastric glandules presumably for breakdown. However, the sources do vouch for lowering lactic acid in muscles, so I still suggest it. By the way, I know the 1st source is outdated, so I'm trying to find a more recent study. But it should still be suitable. And, do a teaspoon of baking soda if you do it, and mix with two ounces of water as recommended by the official company.

 

[SugarbushMtn]

False .

Read FAQ , plenty of research against that .

PPIs harm SN absorption (not to a worrying level- don't stop treatment)

Actually PPIs do not effect SN absorption one way or the other. So skip them.

"In addition, we assessed the changes in gastric pH and plasma levels of nitrite, NOx (nitrate+nitrite), and S-nitrosothiols caused by treatments. We found that the increases in gastric pH induced by omeprazole significantly reduced the hypotensive effects of sodium nitrite in both normotensive and L-NAME-hypertensive rats. This effect of omeprazole was associated with no significant differences in plasma nitrite, NOx, or S-nitrosothiol levels. "

from:

Increase in gastric pH reduces hypotensive effect of oral sodium nitrite in rats

The new pathway nitrate–nitrite–nitric oxide (NO) has emerged as a physiological alternative to the classical enzymatic pathway for NO formation from …

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Quarky00]

Actually PPIs do not effect SN absorption one way or the other. So skip them.

"In addition, we assessed the changes in gastric pH and plasma levels of nitrite, NOx (nitrate+nitrite), and S-nitrosothiols caused by treatments. We found that the increases in gastric pH induced by omeprazole significantly reduced the hypotensive effects of sodium nitrite in both normotensive and L-NAME-hypertensive rats. This effect of omeprazole was associated with no significant differences in plasma nitrite, NOx, or S-nitrosothiol levels. "

from:

Increase in gastric pH reduces hypotensive effect of oral sodium nitrite in rats

The new pathway nitrate–nitrite–nitric oxide (NO) has emerged as a physiological alternative to the classical enzymatic pathway for NO formation from …

www.sciencedirect.com

Seriously?

Same research, line before:
"significantly reduced the hypotensive effects of sodium nitrite"

Line after:
"Omeprazole blunts part of the beneficial cardiovascular effects of dietary nitrate and nitrite."

In layman's terms:

Although the same 1ng SN circulated in blood , it had smaller effects on blood with PPI