Discussion The subtractive nature of suffering

[Superdeterminist]

Something I've noticed, which seems to be common to suicide objectors, is that they seem not to view suffering as a negative experience. They will describe suffering as either unimportant, or as beneficial because it "enables growth". This difference seems central to the divide between pro-choice and anti-choice people. Most of us here seem to agree that suffering is purely negative in quality, and only subtracts from the value of existence. For us, the worthwhileness of life can be calculated by a weighting of the total happiness against the total suffering, but for anti-choicers, no such calculation is valid, or if it is, the answer will always have a positive value regardless. Have you noticed this or something similar?

 

[Pluto]

It is easy enough for an average person to write off modest quantities of suffering. It can be considered a part of the adventure of the hero's journey, hence why there could never be a watchable movie in which there is no suffering at any point.

But to comment on extreme suffering without simply stretching the preceding argument that hardship is just a part of the game, one has to experience it first hand. It leads to a completely different strain of logic, whereby a line must be drawn in the sand beyond which it is unacceptable to push on.

A 'normie' would want to avoid even admitting that such suffering is possible, which is also why we don't like to focus on the atrocities of the world (or even the way we treat animals and nature daily), as it would start to break down their world view. Hence their dismissal of our point of view is a part of their own survival and mental health maintenance.

 

[soundsinteresting]

I think the main difference is pro lifers have it made/lead a comfortable life while suicidal people are leading a broken down dysfunctional life.

 

[_Minsk]

Its just a matter of suffering..

 

[Superdeterminist]

I think the main difference is pro lifers have it made/lead a comfortable life while suicidal people are leading a broken down dysfunctional life.

That may well be. I would just like to grant them the charity that perhaps their lives aren't literally better than ours, because they tend to get offended by that idea.

 

[Zzzzz]

People know that there is incredible suffering everywhere in the world, but it's too much to think about. If people knew everything that happens in their town or even neighborhood, they would probably have trouble sleeping at night. In order for people to function or be happy, they often justify or minimize other people's suffering, while tending to consider their own problems of greatest importance.

But yes the anti suicide people do have a tendency imo to view great suffering as a much lesser evil than death. I have the opposite view. They seem to view life as only an obligation and nothing more.

 

[Rational man]

Something I've noticed, which seems to be common to suicide objectors, is that they seem not to view suffering as a negative experience. They will describe suffering as either unimportant, or as beneficial because it "enables growth". This difference seems central to the divide between pro-choice and anti-choice people. Most of us here seem to agree that suffering is purely negative in quality, and only subtracts from the value of existence. For us, the worthwhileness of life can be calculated by a weighting of the total happiness against the total suffering, but for anti-choicers, no such calculation is valid, or if it is, the answer will always have a positive value regardless. Have you noticed this or something similar?

Great points. I would also say that its easy to say that suffering is part of life. And I would agree to a point. I would say that suffering can be beyond endurance, in my case physical pain that is uncontrollable. I wonder if all objectors would can find themselves in our 'shoes'. Maybe they have a change of heart. It doesnt always happen to other people mindset.

 

[FuneralCry]

I believe that if anyone says that suffering is in any way beneficial, then they are delusional. I think if someone believes that, it is just a way for them to cope with the harsh reality of this life. I think that all suffering is completely unnecessary and we would all have been better off without all these negative life experiences. To me, the fact that so much pain exists in this world is horrible. Many of these anti choice people live under a delusion that life is always worth living and they do not respect the right to die.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

I have noticed this pattern among anti-choicers too. What they don't realize is that there is a certain point where the suffering goes beyond that which makes you a "better" and "stronger" person. Once it gets to the point where that suffering starts to break you, to weaken you, you know you won't be able to offer those you love and the world as much as if you were happy. This kind of suffering is just a net negative for everyone, whether or not the person chooses to ctb. That's how I see it at least.

 

[Nanako]

You can boil down an anti-choicer's views on suicide to ignorance. They've all been lucky enough to not have to deal with any sort of debilitating mental and/or physical condition that significantly decreases their quality of life, and the hardships they've had to deal with in their lives have been either manageable or completely reversible.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

You can boil down an anti-choicer's views on suicide to ignorance. They've all been lucky enough to not have to deal with any sort of debilitating mental and/or physical condition that significantly decreases their quality of life, and the hardships they've had to deal with in their lives have been either manageable or completely reversible.

I think this is true to a degree- most anti-choicers have probably not felt the pain we have felt. But some have endured a insufferable amount of heartache and still cling to this idea that life is beautiful/always worth living/everything happens for a reason etc. It's sad in the sense that I believe they've been gaslit by what they've heard from others and what they want to believe