Help The problem with addiction: How do you manage it?

[dragonofenvy]

I was looking into psychology research, partly out of boredom, partly out of trying to find answers for myself, and partly because it's my new autistic obsession (haven't had one of these for years). In particular, I've been looking into addiction psychology because I've got several addictions. Not anything like hard drugs that give cravings or horrible withdrawals thankfully, but stuff that makes you more "mentally" addicted. I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse about it though.

The biggest challenge with overcoming addiction is giving someone a reason to overcome it. They're addicted to something for a reason: it fills a void. The best way to get them out of the addiction is to find something to fill that void. My issue, and I'm sure lots of other people's issue on this site, is that we have a damn big void to fill and we probably wouldn't be on this site if we knew what to do about it or could do anything about it. Sure, I can simply choose not to do the stuff I'm addicted to and can congratulate myself for going a week or two before relapsing and trying again. The problem though, is that this cycle's just gonna repeat and repeat forever since the void isn't being filled.

The thing is - I don't want to overcome my addictions (you could also read this as "I can't overcome them"), but I do want to manage them. I know damn well that I've got a massive void that will never fill, but I also don't want to spend so much time and money with porn, THC, copious amounts of alcohol and soda, among other things. My question to those who have an addiction of any kind, even something like gaming or shopping, it doesn't have to be hard drugs or whatever: How do you manage it? Sure, my addictions could be way worse but saying that it could be worse doesn't make it any better.

 

[Argo]

Well it's not just a matter of it "it helps fill the void so why wouldn't I", since you already know it doesn't fill the void. If it did, eventually the void would get filled and you'd stop. So all it does is mask the problem. Some things are worth avoiding completely, other things are fine in more moderate or rare amounts. So not everything is the same. Do you have to perfectly abstain from ever touching an alcoholic drink in your life? No, unless you're a hard case of a recovering alcoholic, probably not. The problem is why are you doing this thing-- are you doing it with a healthy mindset, or an unhealthy one? You can do almost anything with an unhealthy mindset. And you can do many things that seem bad in excess with a healthy one.

You're never going to be happy if all of life is just about getting to the next thing that promises to make you feel good, or promises to distract you from your problems. Start there.

 

[dragonofenvy]

You're never going to be happy if all of life is just about getting to the next thing that promises to make you feel good, or promises to distract you from your problems. Start there.

I've lived with this thought for years. I know that life isn't about distractions. I've just never been able to figure out what else there is for it.

The problem is why are you doing this thing-- are you doing it with a healthy mindset, or an unhealthy one? You can do almost anything with an unhealthy mindset. And you can do many things that seem bad in excess with a healthy one.

It's the unhealthy mindset - it's to cope, to distract, to not be bored. I wanted to moderate it because I look back and think "man why am I wasting my life with this?" But then I'm not sure what I'd do.

 

[Argo]

It's the unhealthy mindset - it's to cope, to distract, to not be bored. I wanted to moderate it because I look back and think "man why am I wasting my life with this?" But then I'm not sure what I'd do.

See how you know all this already? It's not like this is new information for you. It's not a knowledge problem.


Just think about a scenario where you've succeeded to reduce doing something you know you're doing too much of, or you know you do for bad reasons. And then, in a specific moment, you fail. What is the description of the mind in that moment? What's present and what's absent? The simpler the answer, the better.

I wanted to moderate it because I look back and think "man why am I wasting my life with this?" But then I'm not sure what I'd do.

There are things you have to do and want to do that are both worth doing, right? Even doing nothing is doing something. Even figuring out what to do, is doing something. It's not about what you're doing, it's about what your mind is like as you're doing it.

 

[dragonofenvy]

Just think about the moment where you've succeeded to reduce doing something you know you're doing too much of, or you know you do for bad reasons. What is the description of the mind in that moment? What's present and what's absent?

I knew logically that this was what I needed to do. Well, I knew but I didn't know. I don't know maybe I just needed someone to tell me or to bring it out of my subconscious or whatever. I don't have an answer for that as I've never done it, or if I have I threw the thoughts away.

I'm going to try the next time. I'll write it down. I'll see what I can do from there. Thank you, really. You've helped me a lot.

 

[Kasumi]

Being honest I'm having a hard time understanding psychological addiction, but one thing to consider generally is the difference between addiction and dependence.
In my mind, dependence just means that you can't do without a thing, but thats not actually a problem.
We can't do without water, sleep, the internet, a car or public transportation, etc.
Addiction on the other hand means to me not wanting to do without something that is harmful or a problem, e.g. gambling or substance addiction.

 

[dragonofenvy]

Being honest I'm having a hard time understanding psychological addiction, but one thing to consider generally is the difference between addiction and dependence.
In my mind, dependence just means that you can't do without a thing, but thats not actually a problem.
We can't do without water, sleep, the internet, a car or public transportation, etc.
Addiction on the other hand means to me not wanting to do without something that is harmful or a problem, e.g. gambling or substance addiction.

So in my case, I would like to not drink or use edibles, but I just do. I don't have withdrawal or anything like that. I used to need to use edibles to deal with my workday. Now I use it because if I don't I can't stand the boredom but I don't have any physical symptoms when stopping it or alcohol, soda or porn, etc..

I can't tell if my use is a problem or not (which for many addicts is a cope, they say "it's not a problem"). I thought quitting my job was the way to make me stop but apparently not. I guess I just don't fully understand what's going on with myself with this I just know that I don't want to constantly be doing these things but don't know how to keep it moderate. It isn't harming me. I think. It's not impacting relationships (I don't have many to be fair) and it's not impacting my job search but I just know it's something I don't want to keep doing in the future. It's really hard for me to explain what psychological dependence/addiction is in my case.

 

[Kasumi]

Well afaik alcohol pretty much is a problem, though thc probably is not so much, as far as I understand moderate use of thc isn't dangerous or unhealthy when you're an adult and don't have risk factors like an anxiety disorder in which case it might make it worse or even lead to psychosis.
Imo, ask an actual doctor who knows exactly about the pharmacological effects of thc.

My first step would be trying to figure out why I still take them even tho wanting to stop, then weigh the risk of taking them over the use I get from them.
For example anxiety is a big problem for me and affecting my life a lot and the only thing that helps are benzos.
If we ignore the fact that my doctor doesn't want to prescribe me more than for occasional use only I would have the option of taking them daily, in which case I'd become dependent on them within a few weeks.
I would see how they affect me over time, if they don't cause any weird side effects then there would be no reason for me to get off of them.
If they do then I need to weigh those side effects against their intended effect, f.e. is having my short term memory affected worse than my anxiety is affecting my life?

Sadly doctors usually don't think that we're capable of making informed decisions for ourselves and are irrationally scared of things that contain the clause "may lead to dependence"...

 

[Andrews]

I've been in several meditation groups in the past. I remember there was a guy who said he overcame drug addiction thanks to those classes. Now he didn't give too much details about how it actually works.
Probably it gave him a state of calm and he could observe his thoughts, impulses more easily and then some willpower to resist them. Then in time probably the brain rewires and the person doesn't feel the need to do those things anymore.

 

[mortuarymary]

I'm heavily addicted to benzodiazepines
I take 20 Zopiclone a night. It's the only way I get through the night. It's not heavy drugs but still an addiction and one I'm in no hurry to end.

 

[carac]

Have you looked at Gabor Mate, he had an addiction to shopping himself. He does a lot of work looking at childhood trauma

 

[mortuarymary]

I'd say shopping too. I don't half buy some shite.

 

[Kasumi]

I'm heavily addicted to benzodiazepines
I take 20 Zopiclone a night. It's the only way I get through the night. It's not heavy drugs but still an addiction and one I'm in no hurry to end.

not trying to be that person, but zopiclone isn't a benzodiazepine

anyway.. if it's not causing unwanted side effects for you then what reason is there really to stop taking it?
You probably started taking it for a reason, if that reason now disappeared then I'd understand but if it didn't what are you even gaining from stopping it?

Benzodiazepines and meds of the Z-family are quiet hard to get off of, though I don't know any specifics to how long it takes and what the withdrawal symptoms are.
Thats why I think it's especially importand to inform yourself before you start taking anything, so you know that continued use leads to dependance which is difficult to stop, physically, and you can make a rational decision if your symptoms are so bad that it's worth it or if there are other available medications.

Other depressants that get you to sleep that aren't as addictive are f.e. gabapentinoids or anti-histamines which don't work on GABA at all.

Something funny to consider, benzos and z-meds are sometimes seen as "dangerously addictive" and associated with drug addicts, but alcohol addiction is common and easily and legally accessible while being way worse for you than those medications (which usually don't even affect your body negatively at all).
So instead of getting access to harmless meds that would help us deal with our problems we are motivated to abuse alcohol instead...

 

[dragonofenvy]

not trying to be that person, but zopiclone isn't a benzodiazepine

anyway.. if it's not causing unwanted side effects for you then what reason is there really to stop taking it?
You probably started taking it for a reason, if that reason now disappeared then I'd understand but if it didn't what are you even gaining from stopping it?

Benzodiazepines and meds of the Z-family are quiet hard to get off of, though I don't know any specifics to how long it takes and what the withdrawal symptoms are.
Thats why I think it's especially importand to inform yourself before you start taking anything, so you know that continued use leads to dependance which is difficult to stop, physically, and you can make a rational decision if your symptoms are so bad that it's worth it or if there are other available medications.

Other depressants that get you to sleep that aren't as addictive are f.e. gabapentinoids or anti-histamines which don't work on GABA at all.

Something funny to consider, benzos and z-meds are sometimes seen as "dangerously addictive" and associated with drug addicts, but alcohol addiction is common and easily and legally accessible while being way worse for you than those medications (which usually don't even affect your body negatively at all).
So instead of getting access to harmless meds that would help us deal with our problems we are motivated to abuse alcohol instead...

So I'm beginning to get a little confused between this post and the last one you made.

Well afaik alcohol pretty much is a problem, though thc probably is not so much, as far as I understand moderate use of thc isn't dangerous or unhealthy when you're an adult and don't have risk factors like an anxiety disorder in which case it might make it worse or even lead to psychosis.

So, what I'm gathering, and correct me if I am wrong, it's fine to use and do certain things (whether it's drugs, drinking, gaming, porn, whatever) as long as it's not causing any problems? Okay, but what exactly are "problems?" I could argue that a gaming or porn addiction (and I will use addiction and dependence interchangeably) doesn't actively cause problems if it's moderate, but when you want to cut down on it but find you're unable to do so, well then I think that it then becomes one doesn't it? Yeah, you're not getting withdrawals or any physical symptoms, but you want to limit yourself but find that you can't. There are a lot of psychological aspects that go into it but I don't want to write an essay right now and be a cringelord that pulls out studies. In a nutshell: You may feel depressed or angry with yourself that you can't stop/moderate which damages your mental health, which in my mind is a problem. This is what's going on with me. I am not directly being affected by all the crap that I've been doing but I would like to not do that stuff.

To paint a better picture since I am sometimes not the best at explaining things, I'll use myself as an anecdotal example except I will use soda and porn as opposed to alcohol and THC. Soda is generally fine (minus that it's messing up my teeth), and porn here and there is also fine. I'm not spending hours on porn or drinking 5 liters of soda per day. The thing is though - I want to stop watching porn, and I want to at the very least moderate drinking soda. I have extreme difficulty in doing both. Does wanting to stop or moderate something but being unable to do so not constitute a problem? Like yeah, I'm not "that bad" compared to some people but I still view it as a problem. It isn't directly impacting me in ways I can see, but what about the impacts I'm not able to see? Right now I'm not someone with anything to lose, I don't have any friendships or relationships, or even a job (that might change soon) so I can't point to those and say "See? This impacts my work and relationships." It's more of an "I want to stop/cut down on it, but I can't and I feel shitty about it."

Is this not a problem? It's not harming you in any way necessarily, but if you can't moderate it I fail to see how it's not a problem. You have a very good understanding of this concept although you did mention you had a hard time understanding the psychological part previously. I am having difficulty understanding the idea that if there are no side effects it's okay. I don't agree. What if I simply want to stop for the sake of it but can't? Unless the conclusion I'm coming to from your posts is incorrect, in which case by all means correct me. I want to be able to understand this better.

 

[Kasumi]

So I'm beginning to get a little confused between this post and the last one you made.

To expand a bit on my last post which got you confused, what I tried to say is, naturally they're taking that medication for a reason and not just because.

Typically Z-meds are used for sleep, e.g. if you suffer from insomnia.
As such, simply the fact that they get dependent on them is no reason to stop taking them imo.
They have a problem (insomnia f.e.) and are taking that medication to solve that problem.
So why stop taking it? (given that the cause of the insomnia doesn't go away of course)

If the medication does cause problems by itself though, such as unwanted side effects (idk, f.e. drowsiness throughout the day), then that's a different story.
If that were the case they would need to decide which is worse, the insomnia or the drowsiness.

Spoiler: Essay

So, what I'm gathering, and correct me if I am wrong, it's fine to use and do certain things (whether it's drugs, drinking, gaming, porn, whatever) as long as it's not causing any problems? Okay, but what exactly are "problems?"

First of this is just my personal opinion.
Most generally my opinion is that it's your body so it shouldn't be criticised for what you do with it.
But since this isn't about other people but about helping each other I rather share my thoughts concerning myself, e.g. what I would do for myself, perhaps this different viewpoint can help you or others who read it.

As long as it's not causing any problem, rationally speaking, why would you not take them?
If caffeine helps you get up in the moning and doesn't affect your cardiovascular system negatively, then why not drink coffee?
If you like gambling, given that you have enough money to spare and it's not causing financial problems for you, then where's the harm, people spend money on their hobbies, in which way is that different from a hobby in that scenario?

Personally I don't like alcohol or any other substances that affect the way I think or feel, so to me, consuming them would be a problem, so getting addicted on them would be bad for me.
But things might be different for other people (sure not about alcohol or other harmful substances but generally speaking).

In your specific case, concerning alcohol and THC, I'd start by trying to understand the effects of those substances, both the immediate and long term effects that might come occour as a result of physical addiction.
In the case of alcohol it's pretty well understood that it's harmful to our physical health, in case of THC I think it's less well understood.
I'd probably go to a doctor that knows about the specific workings of THC, additionally to researching on my own, to try to understand in which ways THC affects my body and mind.

If you know those things you can make an informed decision and pick whatever path is best for yourself.
Weighing the pros and cons against each other, a totally fictional example would be:

Say the drug I'm taking helps me focus on my work and without it I'm having a hard time doing tasks correctly.
It doesn't have any negative physiological effects and also mentally I don't feel negatively affected (f.e. feeling emotionless, anxious, numb, etc), but it does make me sleepy and as a result I can't drive in that state.
In that case I'd see how much this sleepiness affects my life negatively and compare that to how much my concentration issues affect my life.
I'd see if I can somehow find different ways to deal with my concentration issues such changing up the structure of my tasks so I'm able to complete them anyway.
Alternatively it might be possible to mitigate the sleepiness by having a better sleep routine.
If the concentration issues pose a larger problem than the sleepiness, then wouldn't it be the logical choice to pick the lesser evil?

I could argue that a gaming or porn addiction (and I will use addiction and dependence interchangeably) doesn't actively cause problems if it's moderate, but when you want to cut down on it but find you're unable to do so, well then I think that it then becomes one doesn't it?

Yea I agree, and this is the point why I said that I'm having a hard time relating to addiction personally.
Because for me, wanting (like actually wanting) to stop would mean that I will stop.
If I'm not coerced by some other factor (such as withdrawal symptoms in physical dependence) then what's stopping me from reducing that?

F.e. if I may want to try out swimming as a hobby but I spend all my free time gaming so I don't have time for that.
First of, I wouldn't call that an addiction, but if I really want to go swimming,... then I'd just do that?
Like that's the part I don't get,.. if I want to go swimming over gaming then obviously I'd go swimming, if I actually prefer gaming over swimming then I wouldn't go swimming but in that case I wouldn't want to reduce gaming so I can make time for swimming, if that makes sense.
That's the part I don't understand about psychiological dependence.

Let's look at another example, say you're in an abusive relationship but have fallen victim to emotional abuse targeted to make you dependent on your partner.
You are psychological dependent and in that way "can't leave" because you don't want to leave, despite knowing that you should.
Thats what I would define psychological dependence as.
It's less an "I want to leave but I can't" but rather an "I know I should leave and it would be better for myself but the thought alone frightens me so much I don't want to".
On the other hand a lot of people even in healthy relationships become reliant or dependent on their partner in some way, but in that case there is no psychiological dependence since there is no reason to leave, after all, why would you want to leave when you are in a good relationship?

So looking at that I'd say if your what you call "addiction" doesn't cause any problems and it's "moderate", then it's not an addiction.
It becomes an addiction if you think you should stop it or are even trying to find a way, but ultimately fail because you personally don't actually want to stop it, you just think you should.
And I think the key to getting out of those addictions is to be able to make the jump from "I think I should" to "I actually want to".
Because if you want to stop it,.. then you can, nothing is stopping you after all.

Yeah, you're not getting withdrawals or any physical symptoms, but you want to limit yourself but find that you can't.

Why would you though?
Just for the sake of it?
If there are reasons that you want to limit yourself then I think you can if those reasons are more important then the thing you want to limit yourself at.
F.e. If I just think doing more workouts would be good for me but don't actually want to do any, then obviously I won't be able to do them.
We don't do things simply by thinking we should, we do things because we believe that they are important, that they have a positive effect on our lives.
People do work out because they believe it will have a positive effect on their health, so they feel better doing them than not doing them and it only makes sense to do the thing that results in the better outcome for yourself.

There are a lot of psychological aspects that go into it but I don't want to write an essay right now and be a cringelord that pulls out studies. In a nutshell: You may feel depressed or angry with yourself that you can't stop/moderate which damages your mental health, which in my mind is a problem. This is what's going on with me.

As you said, if it damages your mental (or physical) health it is a problem.
More simply, if you think of it as a problem it's a problem.
And that's again what I said I have trouble understanding.
If you see it as a problem isn't that enough motivation for you to stop then?
Though perhaps the negative effect it has on your mental health is less than the positive effect it has?

That would be the only way I could wrap my head around it,.. if lets say it solved one problem, e.g. helps with sleeping, but caused another, e.g. idk causes headaches, then perhaps you don't stop it because you perceive the positive effect it has as more significant than the negative effect it has?
In which case I again think that thorouly informing yourself and exploring those positive and negative effects in depth will allow you to make an decision which you can actually follow through on.

I am not directly being affected by all the crap that I've been doing but I would like to not do that stuff.

Then firstly I'd adk myself why I would like to not to that stuff.
Sorry if this isn't very helpful.. This is just what I'd do in this situation but I'm probably pretty different from other people in that regard so it might not be the most natural thing for others.

To paint a better picture since I am sometimes not the best at explaining things, I'll use myself as an anecdotal example except I will use soda and porn as opposed to alcohol and THC. Soda is generally fine (minus that it's messing up my teeth), and porn here and there is also fine. I'm not spending hours on porn or drinking 5 liters of soda per day. The thing is though - I want to stop watching porn, and I want to at the very least moderate drinking soda. I have extreme difficulty in doing both. Does wanting to stop or moderate something but being unable to do so not constitute a problem?

As I said I think it's a problem (for yourself) if you think it is.

Like yeah, I'm not "that bad" compared to some people but I still view it as a problem. It isn't directly impacting me in ways I can see, but what about the impacts I'm not able to see?

That's why imo thoroughly informing yourself about the things you consume is important.
If you know which specific problems it's causing or not causing you can make a better decision.

What if I simply want to stop for the sake of it but can't?

That is a very good question, and precisely the part I can't relate to at all.
If I can't then there is a reason for why I can't.
I can't think of anything that I wasn't able to stop when I wanted to, but I also can't think of anything I wanted to stop just for the sake of it.
For me it really is just as simple as "If there's a reason to take it, I take it, if there's a reason not to then I don't".

So first of I'd again try to understand my own motivations and feelings towards that matter, why do I want to stop, what do I gain from that?
Why can't I stop, what's preventing me?

You said you didn't want to write an essay, well I guess I did, sorry about that :P

 

[mortuarymary]

Always they they were in the z family

 

[dragonofenvy]

I think we agree on pretty much everything here, other than the psychological part. So I did some thinking. This time around I'm not going to overthink and put it a lot more simply, or try to. This might seem disjointed because I'm going back and rewriting stuff up to 40 minutes after writing it and responding to multiple things at once without using the quote formatting for every little thing, so the flow might not be the best but oh well.

Spoiler: Response

Then firstly I'd adk myself why I would like to not to that stuff.

If I stop using THC, I don't enjoy doing things and feel sad (anhedonia).
If I stop using alcohol, I get bored and become distressed over being bored. Also, I get anhedonia too.
If I don't drink soda, I feel irritable, bored, and sad.
If I don't watch porn, I feel sad and lonely.

All of these things are psychological symptoms. I use the stuff to mask problems I have. If I solved the problems I would likely not use them. I can't solve my problems. So, therefore, I use this stuff to mask. Psychological dependence.

As long as it's not causing any problem, rationally speaking, why would you not take them?

Sometimes you don't realize it's causing a problem. Sometimes you can't quite put your finger on it but you just know something is off. It might be a case of alexithymia, which is essentially colorblindness to one's own internal feelings if you don't want to read the article.

As you said, if it damages your mental (or physical) health it is a problem.
More simply, if you think of it as a problem it's a problem.
And that's again what I said I have trouble understanding.
If you see it as a problem isn't that enough motivation for you to stop then?
Though perhaps the negative effect it has on your mental health is less than the positive effect it has

You would think that, right? But understand, that lots of people realize the shit they do is problematic. Look at hardcore gaming addicts who play games for 19 hours per day or people who abuse hard drugs. They both know they have a problem and they both know it's damaging them but can't stop. Why? Because it does something for them. We both are aware of this but the part where we're divided is "Why don't they (why don't I) stop if it's causing problems?" The problem in my case, which I figured out after talking about this with you (which I want to thank you for btw) is my reasoning for wanting to not do this shit is that I feel bad about feeling bad when I do stop. I want to be able to live decently without all of this stuff. Now, how does one do that? That's the problem. I can't just stop because there needs to be something for me to get out of it. People do destructive things because they get something.

Yea I agree, and this is the point why I said that I'm having a hard time relating to addiction personally.
Because for me, wanting (like actually wanting) to stop would mean that I will stop.
If I'm not coerced by some other factor (such as withdrawal symptoms in physical dependence) then what's stopping me from reducing that?

Addicts understand this logically when told. Addiction psychiatrists understand this. Yet it's very very difficult to get to the "like actually wanting to stop" phase. Because you need to give them a reason to stop. Meaning - you have to give them the thing that their addiction is giving them. This is almost always trying to find a way to make their life objectively better (friendships, a good career, hobbies, etc.) so they stop the behavior. Now I am basing this off of drug addiction research this is going to be very different for a gaming addiction for example.

I don't know what your experience with this is, if you have personal experience or not with using, well, anything. In the case of the psychological and emotional aspect, in a nutshell, it's more of an "I want to use/do [thing]. If I don't use [thing] I feel [emotional response]." Here is a readable source I found. I guess think of it as emotional withdrawal symptoms.

Let's look at another example, say you're in an abusive relationship but have fallen victim to emotional abuse targeted to make you dependent on your partner.
You are psychological dependent and in that way "can't leave" because you don't want to leave, despite knowing that you should.
Thats what I would define psychological dependence as.
It's less an "I want to leave but I can't" but rather an "I know I should leave and it would be better for myself but the thought alone frightens me so much I don't want to".

Bingo. In my case, it's a "Well, what's the alternative? I want a relationship, I don't know how to get another one. I'll just stick with this one."

I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is I want to be able to be happy without doing drugs, alcohol, etc. and it's causing distress that I can't. It doesn't matter for me that they're not causing any tangible problems like the loss of a job. All the research on how to overcome it says that you really have to build someone a better life and then they won't do whatever they're addicted to anymore, or at the very least they can use it without it being a problem.

Me? I use alcohol every day, the same with soda and porn. THC I try to only do every few days. My goal is to not do it so much. Eventually stopping it would be great. I think after talking to you I'm beginning to realize that I'm pointing the finger and saying "Because I use this stuff, this is the problem!" when it's not. I guess I just felt that it was more manageable to be able to try to "solve" addiction over what's really bothering me since I've never been able to deal with that stuff. I use all the crap I use to "solve" the other stuff which I know damn well doesn't do anything everyone who is an addict is aware of this. I guess I just don't know what to do about the problems.

I'm not really sure what the point of my post is now that I've thought about my issues more. I guess I don't know what to do about.. anything. At any rate, thank you for making me think about this more. I mean it genuinely. It helped with my understanding because I thought I already did. I didn't fully understand it. I still don't, but I do a lot more than I did before.

 

[Kasumi]

Apologies for not re-reading what I wrote and if it even makes any sense lol
There's probably some spelling errors too, but it's waaay too late to still be up so I'll be hitting the bedge asap.

Spoiler: Reply

Addicts understand this logically when told. Addiction psychiatrists understand this. Yet it's very very difficult to get to the "like actually wanting to stop" phase. Because you need to give them a reason to stop.

I understand this and that's exactly what I'm trying to say with "like actually wanting to stop".
To me "wanting something" means "like actually wanting to".
If I don't "actually want to" then I simply don't want to.
Of course you need a reason to stop, that's why I said I'd think about what positives and negatives I gain from this and then I can decide if that's reason for me to stop or continue.

it's more of an "I want to use/do [thing]. If I don't use [thing] I feel [emotional response]."

There it is, "I want to use/do".
You do because you want to.
And yes, if possible find other ways to solve your problems.
Specifically for your symptoms and problems the "safe way" is usually anti-depressants.
And naturally maybe you're able to find things you can do to deal with them.
If alcohol has a positive effect ask your psychiatrist for other depressants instead, gabapentinoids aren't really addictive afaik, benzodiazepines and z-meds are, but they're still better than alcohol.

Also, thanks for that link, reagrding what it says about psychological addiction:

"Psychological addictions tend to occur because of a substance or experience activating the pleasure center in the brain, which causes you to want to recreate those same pleasurable feelings in the same way."

Ig now it makes a little more sense why I can't wrap my head around this. I don't see "highs" (simplyfied) as desireable. On the contrary, I don't want to take anything that would affect the way I feel or think, simply put, if I feel good or happy because of a substance I consume, it's not real.
Or in other words, it's just some chemical brain stuff that gives me the illusion of positive feelings, but real feelings are always linked to a real cause, such as your friends doing something nice for you.
If I now would achieve happiness by consumption of some substance it would take the meaning of the feeling away.
Feeling happy would become meaningless as it's something that can simply be achieved by taking some substance, which would mean that f.e. nice things my friends do for me aren't anything special anymore.
I hope that makes sense somehow.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is I want to be able to be happy without doing drugs, alcohol, etc. and it's causing distress that I can't.

Well,.. idk what I should or even can tell you,.. I haven't felt happy or even comfortable in.. I don't even know.
And I want the same thing as you, being able to feel comfortable without drugs, etc.
For me drugs just don't feel compelling enough to use them and I prefer rather staying like this than taking them for the reasons stated above.

All the research on how to overcome it says that you really have to build someone a better life and then they won't do whatever they're addicted to anymore, or at the very least they can use it without it being a problem.

Yea I mean that's kinda what I was trying to say.
If you want to stop then you need to want to stop, and in order to truly want something there has to be suffucient motivation, and that motivation can be positive or negative I think.
F.e. if you find a way to deal with those things without the use of those substances then you'll find it easy to drop them, because.. well why would you continue when you have better options available.
Or for a negative example, if the drugs you consume were actually dangerous, would physically or mentally affect you in a noticeable bad enough way, then that might also motivate you to stop as you might prefer those feelings over getting mentally or physically fucked over.
In the end it's a comparison of the utility and problems that you get from those substances compared to the utility and problems you get from alternatives (while simply doing nothing would also be one alternative oc).
I believe you, me, everyone will always pick that which has the best relation of utility vs problems compared to the other options.
It's just that some people don't have good alternatives and if their problems without those substances are worse than the problems from those substances then it only makes sense to me that you continue using them, and that's precisely when I'd say it's not just okay, but the right decision.

Me? I use alcohol every day, the same with soda and porn. THC I try to only do every few days. My goal is to not do it so much. Eventually stopping it would be great. I think after talking to you I'm beginning to realize that I'm pointing the finger and saying "Because I use this stuff, this is the problem!" when it's not.

If it were you'd never take it to begin with.
Obviously you consume them cause it helps you with something.

I guess I just felt that it was more manageable to be able to try to "solve" addiction over what's really bothering me since I've never been able to deal with that stuff. I use all the crap I use to "solve" the other stuff which I know damn well doesn't do anything everyone who is an addict is aware of this. I guess I just don't know what to do about the problems.

Yea.. I wish I could help you with that but sadly not all problems are easily fixed just because we want them to, some can't be fixed by other means.
The first step would be to recognise those problems, only then you can think about what you can do about them.
Now that I think about it, I could somehow always tell what I'd need to solve problems, I think what stopped me was that I put those things off as "unrealistic", and tried to find other solutions, but that was a mistake, I think they should be seriously considered and explored, sometimes problems just are hard to solve and do require more drastic changes that might be seen as "unrealistic" but tbh, if your alternative is to not solve them, then what does it matter?
Like f.e. someone might know that they can't get treatment for whatever in their country, but moving to a different country might seem unrealistic and it will no doubt cause more difficulties and problems.
But if that's what's necessary then it's necessary,... sometimes things are like that, what's the alternative? Staying and not getting that treatment, or moving and solving the difficulties and problems when they come?

I'm not really sure what the point of my post is now that I've thought about my issues more. I guess I don't know what to do about.. anything. At any rate, thank you for making me think about this more. I mean it genuinely. It helped with my understanding because I thought I already did. I didn't fully understand it. I still don't, but I do a lot more than I did before.

I'm glad I could help!

I guess I don't know what to do about.. anything.

Lots of thinking about who I am, what I really want, what is stopping me from achieving that and what is necessary to achieve that - was what helped me figure things out eventually, but it took a long long time, most of my hs and early university years simply went by without any improvement exactly because of that I wasn't able to know what to do about anything,.. where to start, or even what the problem(s) really was.
And now I'm going to therapy and I can only think how it might've helped something if I did that at that time, it doesn't do anything for me now.
So that might be an option, I don't think therapy can actually treat or solve anything, but I see it more of somewhere you go to to figure out your problems and find ways to solve them in the long run or at least cope with them.

 

[sserafim]

Personally I don't drink or do drugs, but I am addicted to the internet (especially this forum) and caffeine. I can't live without my coffee (and tea), it keeps me alive. I also need help in managing my (internet) addiction, since coming back to this forum I've been on it 24/7.

I was addicted to Pokémon Mystery Dungeon but my mom took away my DS Lite because she was sad/mad that I was wasting my life away playing video games (lol I know it's cringe cuz I'm literally an adult now not a child), so now Pokémon Go has to suffice. I think that if you want to overcome addiction, maybe remove the thing you're addicted to altogether? I think it's called going cold turkey. I heard that it could be bad but if you cut off access to the thing you're addicted to maybe you'll slowly acclimate to not having it.

I also used to be addicted to social media but then I deleted the apps one day and didn't redownload them until recently. I hate how society, corporations and capitalism exploit our dopamine receptors to make us chase after the next hit.