The morality of suicide

[yeaimhere13]

The same dilemma I run into every time I find myself fantasizing about wanting to die. I would simply be causing more suffering to my family members, friends and loved ones. Especially my mom. She once told me that she if I ended my life, she would follow along with me. I haven't been the same since she said that. But.. I want the suffering to end. It would be so much easier to go through with it if I had nobody in my life. Yeah, poor me, there's people that actually care! But death, man, death. Pure bliss.

 

[offbalance]

I mean you're on a pro choice forum so I suspect you'll get a lot of replies saying how it's your body and your decision and yada yada but I understand how you feel. However the pain I'm in outweighs considering other people, personally…

 

[Forever Sleep]

I agree- that morally speaking, we ought to try to avoid deliberately causing others pain and, there's no denying that suicide does hurt others.

However, what are the chances a living, sentient being would suffer to some extent in this world? I'd say- 100%. Of course, the extent of that suffering will vary person to person. How much assistance they get in mitigating harm will vary also.

It's not something that can be accurately predicted but, what's for certain is that some things are inevitable or at least very likely. We will 100% die some day. We are very likely to experience the death/ loss of others. There are also things that- for the best will in the world, our parents won't be able to entirely shield us from. Bullying, illness- physical and mental, violence, sexual assault. So- is birthing a sentient being into a highly volatile situation- which you can't effectively protect it against- moral?

I would argue that it isn't moral to have been brought here. So- we start out in an unfair environment with unfair expectations placed on us. No matter what, we are expected to survive. Many of us are pressured to thrive too. To not become a burden on our parents. No matter what's going on for us. So, to some extent, I see suicide as a correction of their own moral mistake.

Also, presumably they wanted to give us free will. Otherwise- what is this? Slavery? But, free will is just that. We may make choices they don't agree with. We may even make choices that hurt them. Again though- that's something they ought to have considered when they brought independent life here. That it wouldn't always do what they wanted.

Whilst I'm sure many would- be parents have good intentions, they open a can of worms when they choose to procreate. They are effectively inflicting bad things as well as good on that being's life. Why would they even expect their child to stay here if all it does is suffer? Is that moral? Should any of us expect another to stay here and suffer for our own benefit? Where's the morality there? That's hugely cruel!

Parents dumped us in this mess- knowing full well how it could turn out. And- would- be parents do know. They've experienced life themselves- they know how difficult it can be. They also know the chances they are giving their child- their genes, any heriditary illnesses, their finances, their partners/ themselves/ their environment- how likely the child will encounter violence/ bullying. There's a bunch of stuff they could predict.

They also know enough about life to know how unpredictable it is. They would have heard about people being struck down with random horrible illnesses. People being raped. Any number of dreadful things that can happen. So- claiming naivity isn't a valid excuse.

Maybe they thought we would be able to cope with whatever life throws at us- as they have? But then- have they? Can they? How happy are they really?

If you get a parent saying they couldn't go on if they lose their child then- they are conceding that some things in life would be bad enough to make them want to leave it. So- they realise that's possible. Will they think that action is justified? Presumably, they would also be leaving people behind whom they would hurt? So- a double standard also exists there. How moral are double standards? Not at all- surely. You can cope but, I can't. How dare you want to escape the bear trap I've shoved your head into.

 

[Jadeith]

So yea, as offbalance said, i will yadda yadda a bit - ctb is a choice. Your choice. Or at least should be. And it should be well thought through, weighting all the arguments for and against it as there's no turning back once you do it. That's why i'm highly against doing it under a pressure, impulse or whatever. Like heartbreak for example.
Now - if pain of others, caused by your departure, outbalances as an argument the pain you are experiencing then you are in similar situation like me. Want to be gone. Want to be gone now. Want to finally rest. But can't. Because of others. Because they will suffer. Because they depend on me. So i stay. For now. But it's still a choice.
Keep in mind that the weight of these arguments changes over time. What once was enough to keep you here, might not be enough tomorrow. And that's valid too, as it was your choice too to assign specific weight to a specific argument.

 

[avalokitesvara]

If I stay alive and suffer one person is suffering. If I kill myself, one person's suffering ends, but at least 3 people will be profoundly devastated for the rest of their lives, 2 children will have their lives forever warped by it, and many other people will be very very upset. It's mathematically unavoidable for me that dying would cause net greater suffering in the world.

 

[Jadeith]

It's mathematically unavoidable for me that dying would cause net greater suffering in the world.

True. But that only works when, mathematically speaking, your suffering (x) = other person suffering (y) and that's not always the case. And who's gonna decide value of (x) and (y)? Ultimately, you...

 

[yeaimhere13]

I agree- that morally speaking, we ought to try to avoid deliberately causing others pain and, there's no denying that suicide does hurt others.

However, what are the chances a living, sentient being would suffer to some extent in this world? I'd say- 100%. Of course, the extent of that suffering will vary person to person. How much assistance they get in mitigating harm will vary also.

It's not something that can be accurately predicted but, what's for certain is that some things are inevitable or at least very likely. We will 100% die some day. We are very likely to experience the death/ loss of others. There are also things that- for the best will in the world, our parents won't be able to entirely shield us from. Bullying, illness- physical and mental, violence, sexual assault. So- is birthing a sentient being into a highly volatile situation- which you can't effectively protect it against- moral?

I would argue that it isn't moral to have been brought here. So- we start out in an unfair environment with unfair expectations placed on us. No matter what, we are expected to survive. Many of us are pressured to thrive too. To not become a burden on our parents. No matter what's going on for us. So, to some extent, I see suicide as a correction of their own moral mistake.

Also, presumably they wanted to give us free will. Otherwise- what is this? Slavery? But, free will is just that. We may make choices they don't agree with. We may even make choices that hurt them. Again though- that's something they ought to have considered when they brought independent life here. That it wouldn't always do what they wanted.

Whilst I'm sure many would- be parents have good intentions, they open a can of worms when they choose to procreate. They are effectively inflicting bad things as well as good on that being's life. Why would they even expect their child to stay here if all it does is suffer? Is that moral? Should any of us expect another to stay here and suffer for our own benefit? Where's the morality there? That's hugely cruel!

Parents dumped us in this mess- knowing full well how it could turn out. And- would- be parents do know. They've experienced life themselves- they know how difficult it can be. They also know the chances they are giving their child- their genes, any heriditary illnesses, their finances, their partners/ themselves/ their environment- how likely the child will encounter violence/ bullying. There's a bunch of stuff they could predict.

They also know enough about life to know how unpredictable it is. They would have heard about people being struck down with random horrible illnesses. People being raped. Any number of dreadful things that can happen. So- claiming naivity isn't a valid excuse.

Maybe they thought we would be able to cope with whatever life throws at us- as they have? But then- have they? Can they? How happy are they really?

If you get a parent saying they couldn't go on if they lose their child then- they are conceding that some things in life would be bad enough to make them want to leave it. So- they realise that's possible. Will they think that action is justified? Presumably, they would also be leaving people behind whom they would hurt? So- a double standard also exists there. How moral are double standards? Not at all- surely. You can cope but, I can't. How dare you want to escape the bear trap I've shoved your head into.

thank you so much for this, it means a lot to receive such a comprehensive reply. i agree with you that deciding to bring a child into this world is basically giving the green light to set them up for failure, suffering, heartache, etc. although, no morally right parent obviously wants that for their child, as children are gifts that should be treasured! but im not a birthday present or a family heriloom. im a living human being that must experience life as it is presented to me, i must live with the cards thrown at me, and suffer through the pain endured unto me. in, roughly, 80% of the animal kingdom, offspring leave their caregivers once they have grown enough to take care of themselves, almost never to be seen together again. friends may be forever, but family is so temporary for them. unfortunately, due to our advanced intellect as human beings, we are expected to remain in good company with our kind forever. it feels like some kind of SAW game that i'll never be able to escape. i understand why i love my family, and why suicide is an option i've tended to put on the backburner, but i don't understand why i was put in a situation that forces my brain to do so. again, thank you for your lovely response to my post.

True. But that only works when, mathematically speaking, your suffering (x) = other person suffering (y) and that's not always the case. And who's gonna decide value of (x) and (y)? Ultimately, you...

ultimately you, and ultimately, a theoretical answer. who's to say alllllll these people will be suffering much greater than i did whilst alive. we can't answer that.

 

[Forever Sleep]

thank you so much for this, it means a lot to receive such a comprehensive reply. i agree with you that deciding to bring a child into this world is basically giving the green light to set them up for failure, suffering, heartache, etc. although, no morally right parent obviously wants that for their child, as children are gifts that should be treasured! but im not a birthday present or a family heriloom. im a living human being that must experience life as it is presented to me, i must live with the cards thrown at me, and suffer through the pain endured unto me. in, roughly, 80% of the animal kingdom, offspring leave their caregivers once they have grown enough to take care of themselves, almost never to be seen together again. friends may be forever, but family is so temporary for them. unfortunately, due to our advanced intellect as human beings, we are expected to remain in good company with our kind forever. it feels like some kind of SAW game that i'll never be able to escape. i understand why i love my family, and why suicide is an option i've tended to put on the backburner, but i don't understand why i was put in a situation that forces my brain to do so. again, thank you for your lovely response to my post.

ultimately you, and ultimately, a theoretical answer. who's to say alllllll these people will be suffering much greater than i did whilst alive. we can't answer that.

That's an interesting thought about animal offspring and their parents although- yes- I suppose you mainly see most of them together only really at the start of their lives.

I'm not so sure with primates though. I think they maybe do stay longer. Stay in familial groups although- it seems to depend on the gender. Boys tend to stay in the group longer apparently. Maybe that's to stop incest though. I doubt young males would have breeding rights.