So has anyone been in a situation where they told the shrinks "My suicide is rational; let me do it"

[Leucosticte]

I've been in that situation when I was in prison, and the shrinks would say, (1) if you're in prison for committing a crime, you've forfeited a lot of your rights, including any right you might have to commit suicide, and (2) while you're in prison, the prison officials have a legal obligation to take care of your needs, including your need for forcible intervention to keep you from killing yourself; otherwise, they can be sued by you and/or your family.

I've also been in a situation where I was on supervised release with court-ordered mental health treatment, and the shrink said that if I threatened to kill myself, he had to take action, by which I assume he meant he was going to call 911, or go to the magistrate and try to get me committed. But that was no longer a situation where I was in custody, so maybe he was just trying to cover his bases by saying he did his due diligence of informing everyone who needed to be informed, so that they could make whatever decisions needed to be made; that way he wouldn't have the burden of taking responsibility for not doing anything. It was never made clear whether I would have actually been committed to a hospital, and force-fed and whatnot if needed; those decisions are ultimately up to a judge, if you appeal it to that level, and I didn't press the issue.

I'm just wondering if anyone has been in a situation, where they said, "Hey society, I'm going to check out, because this shit is lame" and seen what happened when they didn't back down. I'm not really interested in unsupported statements like, "Oh man, if you say you're gonna kill yourself, they're gonna do such-and-such" based on what you heard or what you think; I'm interested in actual experiences people have had themselves, or that they can cite to some official literature (e.g. statutes or court cases or whatever). Thanks.

 

[Partial-Elf]

A few points:

1. I feel a similar way about rationally "stepping away from the table." It's a game I don't enjoy much and would prefer not to play. It's not a passing emotional response for me, but rather a well thought out and long lasting stance.
2. You and I are in a tiny minority of people that understand that manner of thinking. Most people view our attitude towards life as insane and dangerous and a product of severe mental health issues. This is especially true of mental healthcare providers who are trained to view and categorize behaviors through the lens of mental illnesses.
3. If you tell a mandated reporter (like a teacher, social worker, or mental healthcare provider) that you're planning on offing yourself or hurting someone else, they're obligated by law to tell their supervisors or the relevant agency. People in these professions err on the side of overreporting rather than underreporting because they don't want to lose their jobs and licenses when it turns out you told them you wanted to die and the investigation reveals they didn't report you.
   
4. Assuming you're in the United States, involuntary commitment laws vary by state but are generally in line with Florida's Baker Act. You need to look up your state's laws, but the basic structure is more or less the same. You tell a mandated reporter that you have a specific plan to off yourself, they report it to whomever, then you're involuntarily committed to a treatment center (most often at your own expense) until they deem you "better."

The takeaway here is that there's NO POINT in trying to convince a therapist or really anyone else that your suicide is rational. In fact, doing so is a good way to get yourself committed. People in those roles won't be swayed because it's their job not to be swayed. If you want to change peoples opinions about issues like this, consider advocating for tangential political issues like death with dignity, etc. It's not exactly what we're after but to some extent we have to meet our culture where it's at and try to push the envelope forward from there. If you genuinely want to suicide, tell as few people as possible.

 

[johnny]

Why would you ever do that? That's just asking for trouble and attention

 

[Leucosticte]

The takeaway here is that there's NO POINT in trying to convince a therapist or really anyone else that your suicide is rational. In fact, doing so is a good way to get yourself committed. People in those roles won't be swayed because it's their job not to be swayed. If you want to change peoples opinions about issues like this, consider advocating for tangential political issues like death with dignity, etc. It's not exactly what we're after but to some extent we have to meet our culture where it's at and try to push the envelope forward from there.

We don't actually have any American suicide organizations that are similar to Exit International in advocating for the right of non-terminally-ill people to die. The Libertarian Party used to advocate for such a right, but they've become cucked.

It seems like it's going to be up to the individual to have to fight on his own. Right now, suicide is probably the only right I'm free to fight for, given how much the Overton window has shifted. I can get a jury trial, and see if a group of normies will agree that suicide can be rational, and that it is good to have "a spirit that scorned an ignominious life, held only at the mercy of an usurper, or by flattering his villainy, and abetting his usurpations; and a spirit, which those that want it can never admire. Great souls are not comprehended by small!"

I just think I have a better argument than most that I'm one of these:

We find, on the contrary, in history, many examples of the great and magnanimous heroes of antiquity, choosing voluntary death, often in the midst of health, with the greatest calmness of mind; sometimes from satiety of life and glory, either when they could gain no more, or apprehending that the future caprices of unconstant fortune might sully the past; and oftener still, to avoid submitting to disgrace and servitude.

 

[Xerox]

Regardless of your perspective, realize you are in the miminority. Telling anyone, esp a mandated reporter, is not in your best interest. If you fund yourself compelled to this, you need to reexamine your true motives.

 

[Leucosticte]

Regardless of your perspective, realize you are in the miminority. Telling anyone, esp a mandated reporter, is not in your best interest. If you fund yourself compelled to this, you need to reexamine your true motives.

You have to tell a mandated reporter if you want to trigger the legal process in which you have the opportunity to fight in the court system for your right to die. It doesn't really matter whether I tell a mandated reporter, though, because there are people around me who will tell if I don't.

 

[Misanthrope]

Well, I can't properly answer your question. Because the times I have expressed my suicidality was because I wanted help. With no interest in engaging in a pointless debate with bureaucratic systems bound by legislation that is going to ignore me anyway because the law is essentially blind.

If you were in the UK I could tell you all the laws that are at work that deprive you of your liberty, and why that isn't any kind of breach of your rights. Even if you think it is. I can explain what your rights actually are and the processes involved in protecting those rights.

Suicide for me is a rational choice that I am making for a variety of reasons that I have thoroughly explored and sought to mitigate before coming to a final conclusion. Even with those mitigations my quality of life is not as I want it to be and is destined to get worse even though it is not fatal. It does not matter how rational that is though, shrinks are a hammer and suicide is a nail to them. To expect otherwise simply seems delusional.

I am also rational enough to know that you will get a much more aggressive interventionist response. It makes no sense to me to act this way as it is entirely counterintuitive to my end goal of an uninterrupted death. I don't need society to sanction my suicide, I am not bed bound and paralyzed requiring right to die legislation. It is also a pointless exercise because it does not result in anything productive. It is up there with facebook petitions attempting to ban meat, in how utterly an empty gesture it is. You just look madder to them and they are the wrong people to be proving rational suicide to in the first place. As they are just doing a job regardless of their own feelings they have processes to follow.

If you want to legitimise rational suicide you would be better focused on tackling a glaring issue that in all honesty, I find mind-bogglingly neglected in this debate. Making further meaningful debate far more difficult.

That issue is how little there is in the way of study of rational suicide within academia. In most psychology textbooks it gets a cursory mention, but that is about it, or none at all in some. It is fascinating to me that psychiatry, meant to be the forefront of understanding on the issue does not even bother to meaningfully pursue this. Instead too busy voting disorders into existence and never defining 'non-disordered'. That is poor science. It also means having a rational discussion about it in legislative places is harder because you don't have the data to pull on to underline your point.

I don't understand why you would do this though, it is like you are out to prove something. However, it is the equivalent of trying to prove to Coca Cola's factory workers that Pepsi is better…

 

[Logic]

I've been in that situation when I was in prison, and the shrinks would say, (1) if you're in prison for committing a crime, you've forfeited a lot of your rights, including any right you might have to commit suicide, and (2) while you're in prison, the prison officials have a legal obligation to take care of your needs, including your need for forcible intervention to keep you from killing yourself; otherwise, they can be sued by you and/or your family.

I've also been in a situation where I was on supervised release with court-ordered mental health treatment, and the shrink said that if I threatened to kill myself, he had to take action, by which I assume he meant he was going to call 911, or go to the magistrate and try to get me committed. But that was no longer a situation where I was in custody, so maybe he was just trying to cover his bases by saying he did his due diligence of informing everyone who needed to be informed, so that they could make whatever decisions needed to be made; that way he wouldn't have the burden of taking responsibility for not doing anything. It was never made clear whether I would have actually been committed to a hospital, and force-fed and whatnot if needed; those decisions are ultimately up to a judge, if you appeal it to that level, and I didn't press the issue.

I'm just wondering if anyone has been in a situation, where they said, "Hey society, I'm going to check out, because this shit is lame" and seen what happened when they didn't back down. I'm not really interested in unsupported statements like, "Oh man, if you say you're gonna kill yourself, they're gonna do such-and-such" based on what you heard or what you think; I'm interested in actual experiences people have had themselves, or that they can cite to some official literature (e.g. statutes or court cases or whatever). Thanks.

Honestly if you find the right psychologist they will respect your descion of suicide, as long as your reasoning in philosophically sound, talk to you honestly about it. Although you still should not tell them I am committing suicide at x because that gives them an obligation to report you. I have had psychologist agree with my reasoning before I was a professional. (I haven't seen any since) They don't understand death etc any more than the average person.

Psychiatrist espically have so much malpractice. For instance the research clearly shows you fix most form of depression and anxiety long term through changing environmental factors with social relationships almost always being the most important factor. If you come to a psychiatrist with a common form of anxiety or depression rather than telling you exercise is as effective of a treatment option, with improving social relationships generally being more effective they will tell you something like if you take an antidepressant it's like taking insulin for diabetes which is simply completely untrue. Most of the effect of an antidepressant is a placebo in most form of depression and anxiety(see Ivan Kirsch head of placebo studies at Harvard). Keep in mind these are the same people who pushed opiates are not addictive recently, being gay is a mental disorder and a million other things. It's a very flawed system and most people just assume it's currently a great system, it's simply not true. Big pharma spend some the most in lobbying(legal bribery) out of any group, as such malpractice and corruption is rampant. You should always be In control of your death, never let anyone tell you, you can't die no matter where you are or what you have done. A common occurrence in the ICU in America is someone being hooked up to machine to live to the last possible second despite being in more pain than being raped everyday. Despite the fact we pay far money than any other country on health care out life expectancy and infant mortality is absolute garbage.

 

[Thewhowithin69]

I guess that there is a small part of me that would like for my death to be validated or maybe just that I want the freedom to make that choice. I'm well aware our system is not set up for this and I don't expect that to change! But I have considered going to another country, even though it's such a bother and so expensive, primarily so that I would have the right to say goodbye to my daughter.
I moved to Oregon but I thought the tumor in my spine would turn into cancer which It did not. That means I am not terminal so I don't have the right to the states medically assisted death. I actually considered fighting for it but I know what the outcome will be and I don't have the energy to fight for that right. If my daughter wasn't so shy I might have considered it. And again in all transparency I think I just want my life to have meant something, to leave something behind of value, that benefits others who are in similar places. But then I think do I want suicide to be easier for others?? And while I think I'm prochoice my instinct is to really exhaust all avenues before agreeing that death is the best option. I have lived a life of judgement and I'm very against it theoretically. I really don't believe I ever have the right to weigh in on someone else's decision until I can live their life for them....so after all that do I want my death to be a catalyst for other deaths?? Can't say that's the legacy I want to leave behind. I'm open to sharing my story because I think that we don't talk about rational suicide near enough but that's very different then fighting for my right to die legally. And the only reason I do want to share my story is because I don't think that suicide is really my best option....I think it's what I'm left with. My depression is horrific and has lead me to some serious attempts when I was much younger. But I can say today I'm actually grateful I didn't succeed. Because even for all the pain and dispair, I cling to those moments of peace and joy. No there weren't that many of them and they are so hard to rememeber when I'm in the dark...but my physical pain is what really drives me over the edge. I think living this life means some of us who are empaths will not have a comfortable way of it, there is too much ugly out there for us not to be effected!! And I struggled for all my life to find a purpose, to leave some kind of legacy beyond just surviving. Now I have to be proud of that survival alone. It may not be much in society's standards but considering what my history is I think it's not such a bad thing!!
Sorry that's was a ramble....I just wanted to say that I DO understand the desire to have my choice be validated I just don't think it's realistic! It's why I like Belgium's stance, they allow you to choose death for unbearable suffering and yes that means you have to have suffered some to qualify but there have been some youngsters allowed. I think having to fight for that right means you will not be impulsive and for me personally that's a good thing!
If my story can help people talk about things that make them uncomfortable then that seems like a good thing....I don't want to just be a statistic, yes she killed herself because she was crazy....umm NO. I don't want my death to be dismissed as mental illness although it sure has played a part!! I have been sick my whole life and that wasn't my choice...I tried so hard to get healthier and had some small successes but I defaulted back to the mental illness anyways....those who know me, if they were allowed, would agree that while they don't want me to be gone they do want my suffering to be over. Seems like I should have the right to say goodbye as if I had some other "acceptable" illness but I don't....I don't like that but really don't think there is much that can be done unless I'm willing to fight and I'm too sick to fight....what a fun cycle this is!!

 

[Logic]

Well, I can't properly answer your question. Because the times I have expressed my suicidality was because I wanted help. With no interest in engaging in a pointless debate with bureaucratic systems bound by legislation that is going to ignore me anyway because the law is essentially blind.

If you were in the UK I could tell you all the laws that are at work that deprive you of your liberty, and why that isn't any kind of breach of your rights. Even if you think it is. I can explain what your rights actually are and the processes involved in protecting those rights.

Suicide for me is a rational choice that I am making for a variety of reasons that I have thoroughly explored and sought to mitigate before coming to a final conclusion. Even with those mitigations my quality of life is not as I want it to be and is destined to get worse even though it is not fatal. It does not matter how rational that is though, shrinks are a hammer and suicide is a nail to them. To expect otherwise simply seems delusional.

I am also rational enough to know that you will get a much more aggressive interventionist response. It makes no sense to me to act this way as it is entirely counterintuitive to my end goal of an uninterrupted death. I don't need society to sanction my suicide, I am not bed bound and paralyzed requiring right to die legislation. It is also a pointless exercise because it does not result in anything productive. It is up there with facebook petitions attempting to ban meat, in how utterly an empty gesture it is. You just look madder to them and they are the wrong people to be proving rational suicide to in the first place. As they are just doing a job regardless of their own feelings they have processes to follow.

If you want to legitimise rational suicide you would be better focused on tackling a glaring issue that in all honesty, I find mind-bogglingly neglected in this debate. Making further meaningful debate far more difficult.

That issue is how little there is in the way of study of rational suicide within academia. In most psychology textbooks it gets a cursory mention, but that is about it, or none at all in some. It is fascinating to me that psychiatry, meant to be the forefront of understanding on the issue does not even bother to meaningfully pursue this. Instead too busy voting disorders into existence and never defining 'non-disordered'. That is poor science. It also means having a rational discussion about it in legislative places is harder because you don't have the data to pull on to underline your point.

I don't understand why you would do this though, it is like you are out to prove something. However, it is the equivalent of trying to prove to Coca Cola's factory workers that Pepsi is better…

It's more like arguing against someone who thinks they are a wizard, in a world where everyone thinks they are a wizard but are not actually wizards. Their thinking is based on magic and if you really try you might be able to change their opinion, however their wizard friends may just take it back. I don't like arguing with wizards.

 

[Xerox]

It's really not that nefarious. Most mental health workers aren't put here to make you live a life you don't want to. Will they do the job for you? Of course not.
Guarantee most ppl., whatever their profession, probably think "don't let the screen door hit you on your way out."
No one's gonna give you the green light. You Should not expect that.
Focus on the task at hand. These tangential arguments are just that.

 

[Thewhowithin69]

BTW I have told every medical professional I am rationally suicidal and not one of them has seemed too concerned. I fill out that stupid form each visit and Mark it honestly and I'm sure it's not even read. They have dismissed me so often, even in the ER for suicide and they sent me to a methadone clinic because I wouldn't want to die if I wasn't hurting....the psychiatrist was the one who suggested microdosing mushrooms but told me I had to figure it out myself cuz it's still illegal. I've just found it interesting how when I was younger any mention of suicide was taken quite seriously but now that I'm older it's easier to dismiss.....but maybe that's just my experience!
I have an appt for a psychiatrist so that I can have a letter of recommendation for euthenasia so will be discussing rational suicide but since I'm planning on dying elsewhere they seem to be ok with it.....

 

[Thewhowithin69]

It's really not that nefarious. Most mental health workers aren't put here to make you live a life you don't want to. Will they do the job for you? Of course not.
Guarantee most ppl., whatever their profession, probably think "don't let the screen door hit you on your way out."
No one's gonna give you the green light. You Should not expect that.
Focus on the task at hand. These tangential arguments are just that.

So your saying us working through this is simply a tangent?? Well glad you have it all figured out but when anyone says what I should or shouldn't do I instantly get angry.....don't invalidate my need to explore how I die!! Not sure why you would want to.....if we need a green light and can afford one we can get one....expecting here in the US you at right that won't happen.

 

[Fenty(nal)]

This story would get my old psych in a LOT of professional trouble, but I rationally had this conversation with him. I didn't cry, and I approached it with a lot of logic. His response was that based on our long history, he wasn't going to have me involuntarily admitted to the hospital. Whatever I chose to do when I walked out that day was up to me.


Why am I still here? My dog.

 

[Xerox]

@Thewhowithin69, I'm sorry I offended you. No, I don't think this is a tangent, and I certainly didn't want to invalidate your thoughts or feelings. I agree with you. Unfortunately, I know that simply isn't the case. I truly am sorry. I don't wish to add to your pain.

 

[TAW122]

The takeaway here is that there's NO POINT in trying to convince a therapist or really anyone else that your suicide is rational. In fact, doing so is a good way to get yourself committed. People in those roles won't be swayed because it's their job not to be swayed. If you want to change peoples opinions about issues like this, consider advocating for tangential political issues like death with dignity, etc. It's not exactly what we're after but to some extent we have to meet our culture where it's at and try to push the envelope forward from there. If you genuinely want to suicide, tell as few people as possible.

Fully agreed and as far as the last sentence is concerned, even I would tell NOBODY (except for the people in this community.) There is simply too much risk and too much to be lost for even one person (doesn't even have to be a mandated reporter, could be a friend, family member, or even a stranger) to blow the whistle (rat out, snitch, report). We simply have odds stacked against us and if anything, little or no support (aside from our small community on here or liked minded individuals off the radar) for our cause. Fighting our fight via tangential political issues is our best chance at seeing change.

That issue is how little there is in the way of study of rational suicide within academia. In most psychology textbooks it gets a cursory mention, but that is about it, or none at all in some. It is fascinating to me that psychiatry, meant to be the forefront of understanding on the issue does not even bother to meaningfully pursue this. Instead too busy voting disorders into existence and never defining 'non-disordered'. That is poor science. It also means having a rational discussion about it in legislative places is harder because you don't have the data to pull on to underline your point.

This makes sense. I wished there was more academic related research into this, but I guess because a big part of the funding in academia is provided and granted from the government, the government itself sees it as counterproductive to do so because it might find that suicide is a rational choice and that more people would do so. This in turn (at least to the government) would result in less workers and the government as well as society would lose their wage slaves and thus slow down. Therefore, for them, they see it as a net loss so they never want to open the doors to it.

@Thewhowithin69 I wished the few states that allowed assisted suicide would be more open like Belgium. I don't like the fact that the current states that allowed the right to die have a very narrow criteria in which it is permitted (which even then, a lot of situations it isn't executed properly or even delayed until the very second until death - which is almost equivalent of having a natural death). Maybe someday these states will adopt the Belgian model, but at this present day, that is just a wishful dream.

 

[Thewhowithin69]

@Thewhowithin69, I'm sorry I offended you. No, I don't think this is a tangent, and I certainly didn't want to invalidate your thoughts or feelings. I agree with you. Unfortunately, I know that simply isn't the case. I truly am sorry. I don't wish to add to your pain.

Thanks....I am horribly sensitive right now. Go figure. Lol.

 

[ctrl_alt_delete]

"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every [person] has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."

~ Arthur Schopenhauer - Studies in Pessimism: On Suicide​

The essential, or rather existential question is this: to whom does my life, my very own life, belong? Is it to 'God', or 'the State', to a partner, pet, companion or friend(s), or does it not rather belong to me? And, if that is taken as a given (prove me wrong), then is it not both entirely logical, rational and ethical to accept personal responsibility for the whole of that life including the time and reasoning of the disposal of what is, after all, mine own property?

I used to be libertarian, but that political position has been subsumed to the cause of social conservatism, liberal economics and socialist ethics; i.e. destroyed utterly by semantics and the rhetoric of hate and fear. These days I consider myself an Ethical Nihilist, with Green Oak-leaves.

Ethically-speaking we humans have absolutely fucked this place, are close to bringing about the extermination of a third of all currently existent species, as well as our own long-suffering drawn-out extermination, for the sake of affordable new shoes and I hold the ethical position that I want nothing at all to do with all of this stupid stupid horror so fuck you all, bye and so, am really rather glad to go. Of course, I am rational enough to never mention this to anyone who could have the power and cultural insanity to presume that they can assume responsibility for my life "for my own sake".

To be well-adjusted to an insane species is to be insane.

 

[I am ___________]

I have only told my twin about how I feel, I have not told anyone else nor did I leak any plans of mine. You cannot trust people at all, if given the chance they will use it to stab you in the back. Health professionals and the pharmaceutical companies (generally society as a whole) do not care your or my problems, they just want to take advantage of it and gain as much profit as possible while you are still here. You can see it clearly in our hospitals, they are not interested in curing, only "treating". By what do they mean by "treating" ? Doing what they think will make it temporarily go away while producing harmful side effects that cause other issues. We live in a world where suicide really is a logical choice to consider, it will only get much worse as time goes on.