Discussion Restart after death

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

What if, after a billion years after the sun explodes, or earth is destroyed, it catalyzes the exact same circumstances that created earth in the first place. What if everything follows as exactly as it did in this planet. What if we are forced to live this cycle of life over and over again as ourselves, unbeknownst that we have walked these steps in life before. But it isn't us. That's why we are unable to remember. That person is just an exact version of us created as a result of the same circumstances occurring in life. I know its a lot of what ifs, but I think about this a lot.

I remember waking up when I was 6 years old. Everything before that day was black. After the day I "woke" up, I felt like that's when I became "me". I feel like my soul has been waiting billions and billions of years to wake up in that body, on that particular day. When people ask me about my earliest memory, I just tell them that I woke up. What if until that age where we "wake" up, we are just hollow husks waiting for a soul?

I feel that death has three possibilities. The most likely would be nothingness. The second would be some kind of recreation/restart of this life. The last one is a possibility so unimaginable to humans, that it cannot be made up in our thoughts (which to me is the scariest).

Does anyone else have thoughts like these? Please share, I find it really interesting.

Also, does anyone else feel that by even coming up with these possibilities, they won't "come true"? It's hard to explain but I feel like only unexpected things can happen, and if I think about them the possibility disappears lol.

 

[issyishere]

Hey man. I used to get scared over this thought too but take comfort in the fact the universe will likely actually die too. Once the last star blows out there will be only darkness and blackholes for googols of years and even they will die too and after that, the universe will just be a soup of electrons and photons growing ever more distant from eachother forever as the dead universe keeps expanding. This is getting philosophical but I just wanted to give you strictly the science side. (:

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

Hey man. I used to get scared over this thought too but take comfort in the fact the universe will likely actually die too. Once the last star blows out there will be only darkness and blackholes for googols of years and even they will die too and after that, the universe will just be a soup of electrons and photons growing ever more distant from eachother forever as the dead universe keeps expanding. This is getting philosophical but I just wanted to give you strictly the science side. (:

New stars are always being made tho? given that we only know what we can observe, isn't there a possibility anyway?

 

[issyishere]

New stars are always being made tho? given that we only know what we can observe, isn't there a possibility anyway?

It's a small possibility yes, but the evidence we currently have suggests the universe is accelerating it's expansion. This means first galaxies will grow distant then stars, then planets and then atoms will be ripped apart as the expansion keeps accelerating! Unless we find some new evidence it appears that the universe will die like us. I think that's beautiful in a way. Hope this gives you some ease of mind (:

 

[drwt]

What if


?

 

[StuFin]

A cold totally dark universe full of lumps of floating rocks. With no life to experience it, it won't really exist.

 

[issyishere]

A cold totally dark universe full of lumps of floating rocks. With no life to experience it, it won't really exist.

Interesting perspective but you are right. It's trippy to think about once you die, it'll be as if you had never lived in the first place. There would be no you to remember. There would be no tragedy because nobody is there to perceive it as a tragedy. No pain, no memories, no sadness, no happiness. Just equilibrium

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

What if


?

That was really beautiful. I would love if it were true

 

[profoundexperience]

What if we are forced to live this cycle of life over and over again as ourselves, ... But it isn't us. ... just an exact version of us created as a result of the same circumstances

I think this is very likely: And it has been happening since beginningless time and will happen forever-and-forevermore.

Why do I think this? It happened once; the "proof" is our direct experience of it right now. That means there was a non-zero probably of it happening. And given the "set of all possible realities" that non-zero probably will reassert itself again... and again... and again...

But it's much "worse" than that: It seems that the MWI of quantum mechanics (which I believe is true and is rapidly gaining support) also implies that every possible permutation also "happens" in its own world. So there is an exact copy of everything as it is now, just the only difference is you died your hair green yesterday (and every infinite shade of variation).

The truth is it is a "probability field" that forever "ripples", like waves on an ocean.

If you bang on all the keys of a piano... all at the same time... always and forever... what kind of song is it?

And that's precisely why I think committing suicide, killing myself, makes absolutely no difference at all (in the grand scheme of that "song"). So if I want to leave this hell, I can and there is no cost in doing that.

 

[StuFin]

I think this is very likely: And it has been happening since beginningless time and will happen forever-and-forevermore.

Why do I think this? It happened once; the "proof" is our direct experience of it right now. That means there was a non-zero probably of it happening. And given the "set of all possible realities" that non-zero probably will reassert itself again... and again... and again...

But it's much "worse" than that: It seems that the MWI of quantum mechanics (which I believe is true and is rapidly gaining support) also implies that every possible permutation also "happens" in its own world. So there is an exact copy of everything as it is now, just the only difference is you died your hair green yesterday.

The truth is it is a "probability field" that forever "ripples", like waves on an ocean.

If you bang on all the keys of a piano... all at the same time... always and forever... what kind of song is it?

And that's precisely why I think committing suicide, killing myself, makes absolutely no difference at all (in the grand scheme of that "song"). So if I want to leave this hell, I can and there is no cost in doing that.

I think maybe this unique universe exists because it's my unique experience of it. When I cease to exist this unique universe ceases to exist. I hope there aren't multiple versions of it and I wake up in another, I'd rather the poor sucker version of me who wanted to stick around gets to "enjoy" that while I have a rest.

Or maybe I've been killing myself over and over again for months, but I keep waking up in the next universe with no recollection.

Must try harder.

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

@profoundexperience I like that. I feel strange, as if this life I lived, although really painful, was a lesson for my soul or something. With all the possibilities, who is to say i'm done experiencing?

 

[issyishere]

I think maybe this unique universe exists because it's my unique experience of it. When I cease to exist this unique universe ceases to exist. I hope there aren't multiple versions of it and I wake up in another, I'd rather the poor sucker version of me who wanted to stick around gets to "enjoy" that while I have a rest.

Or maybe I've been killing myself over and over again for months, but I keep waking up in the next universe with no recollection.

Must try harder.

The only issue I have with this train of thought is that it implies there's some sort of metaphysical plane where you as the consciousness are tied to your body forever and you can change between planes and parallel universes seamlessly. Technically being "immortal" in a sense. I'm under the assumption that when we as the observer cease to exist. The universe ceases to exist and we are a blank slate once again returning to the nothingness where "you" never left because you have no memory of leaving. On a side note this is a fun discussion and I applaud you for bringing this up!

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

Or maybe I've been killing myself over and over again for months, but I keep waking up in the next universe with no recollection.

Must try harder.

I've been wondering this as well because I used to hang myself impulsively. I would wonder if the me in another universe was successful and if I was just in the one where I failed. What scares my about CTB is that I might wake up again in another version of this life, but the me in this reality would actually be successful. ughhh

 

[StuFin]

The only issue I have with this train of thought is that it implies there's some sort of metaphysical plane where you as the consciousness are tied to your body forever and you can change between planes and parallel universes seamlessly. Technically being "immortal" in a sense. I'm under the assumption that when we as the observer cease to exist. The universe ceases to exist and we are a blank slate once again returning to the nothingness where "you" never left because you have no memory of leaving.

I think also that once you're dead nothing exists any more. I don't really put much stock in the idea of multiple universes where every possibility is enacted. It doesn't make sense, it's a kind of scientific religion where we have everything and nothing, we live and we die, all at the same time. Schroedinger has a lot to answer for.

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

I think also that once you're dead nothing exists any more. I don't really put much stock in the idea of multiple universes where every possibility is enacted. It doesn't make sense, it's a kind of scientific religion where we have everything and nothing, we live and we die, all at the same time. Schroedinger has a lot to answer for.

The curse of having such an evolved consciousness in humans is the need to justify our existence :/ In the end, we all want to know why and how we are here, but what if there's no meaning at all? I think that's just it. It's still fun to speculate though, it gives me hope and something to look forward to.

 

[issyishere]

I've been wondering this as well because I used to hang myself impulsively. I would wonder if the me in another universe was successful and if I was just in the one where I failed. What scares my about CTB is that I might wake up again in another version of this life, but the me in this reality would actually be successful. ughhh

Don't worry about this. The biggest flaw is that you would eventually notice that you are defying all odds. (:
edit: replied twice oops

 

[StuFin]

The curse of having such an evolved consciousness in humans is the need to justify our existence :/ In the end, we all want to know why and how we are here, but what if there's no meaning at all? I think that's just it. It's still fun to speculate though, it gives me hope and something to look forward to.

I think that's it, the idea of multiple universes seems to revolve around the idea of "human experience" - you coloured your hair red / green / blue / did one of those and cut your toenails / didn't cut your nails.

Why would such trivialities require a different universe to branch out?

Multiply it by every organism on the planet, or in the universe and - well, it's nuts. IMHO.

 

[LenkaX]

If you were to be born again under the same conditions and everything the same as now, you could also be born as somebody entirely else. Or it could be in a much different ways. But no living person can tell us how it really is, because when the person is entirely dead, then he cannot return and tell us how it is.

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

I think that's it, the idea of multiple universes seems to revolve around the idea of "human experience" - you coloured your hair red / green / blue / did one of those and cut your toenails / didn't cut your nails.

Why would such trivialities require a different universe to branch out?

Multiply it by every organism on the planet, or in the universe and - well, it's nuts. IMHO.

In the egg video mentioned above, it made me think that we don't live our lives again. So maybe there aren't any variations because we are supposed to be this way in this life. Like you said, it would not make sense to branch out into another universe where our hair is colored or not. I guess we really do only live once lol. That leads me to the first and third possibility after death - nothingness or the unimaginable.

 

[StuFin]

You're going to die at some point anyway, so if you end up in another universe do you want to hang around here suffering for ages and then die and reappear, or get on with it asap? Maybe you'll wake up in a better universe?

 

[OopsIdidntwanttodie]

You're going to die at some point anyway, so if you end up in another universe do you want to hang around here suffering for ages and then die and reappear, or get on with it asap? Maybe you'll wake up in a better universe?

Yes but if that's also the case, I could also argue that if i'm going to die anyway, I should spend as much time doing what I want without a care. Then I could CTB and get the best out of both possibilities lol.

 

[LonelyDude15]

We know so little about the universe that poundering it's end is mostly just a fun thought exercise. And death is most definitely just nothing, no one thinks about what happens when a deer or fly dies. Humans are just being sentimental but I think deep down we all know what happens.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I think this is very likely: And it has been happening since beginningless time and will happen forever-and-forevermore.

Why do I think this? It happened once; the "proof" is our direct experience of it right now. That means there was a non-zero probably of it happening. And given the "set of all possible realities" that non-zero probably will reassert itself again... and again... and again...

But it's much "worse" than that: It seems that the MWI of quantum mechanics (which I believe is true and is rapidly gaining support) also implies that every possible permutation also "happens" in its own world. So there is an exact copy of everything as it is now, just the only difference is you died your hair green yesterday (and every infinite shade of variation).

The truth is it is a "probability field" that forever "ripples", like waves on an ocean.

If you bang on all the keys of a piano... all at the same time... always and forever... what kind of song is it?

And that's precisely why I think committing suicide, killing myself, makes absolutely no difference at all (in the grand scheme of that "song"). So if I want to leave this hell, I can and there is no cost in doing that.

I'm not sure how you can assert that it's 'very likely'. There are way too many unknowns, assumptions and hypotheticals in the equation. As far as we know, it's no more than a philosophical thought experiment.
What is 'beginningless time'? According to current estimates, this universe is 13.8 billion years old, which means that time had a beginning, as least as a local event. Asserting that there is some other transcendent time beyond the universe is metaphysical speculation. What is time even? It may not even really exist, but be a function of subjective perception interacting with some kind of external reality, part of the structure of a user interface which doesn't exist if there is no perception. Some physicists (e.g. ed witten, nima arkani-hamed) believe that spacetime itself is actually doomed, because it is incompatible with quantum mechanics, and must give way to more fundamental structures.

What is 'forever'? What is infinity? Is an actual infinity even a possibility in terms of physical reality? Actual infinities yield paradoxes and dilemmas, much like time travel scenarios. For example, if it took an actually infinite amount of time to get to this current universe, how was it ever reached? An actual infinity cannot be overcome to reach (infinity + 1), by definition.

What is the 'set of all possible realities'? As far as we know empirically, the only possible reality is the current one, and even that one isn't understood.

The MWI of quantum mechanics in its realist version has no empirical evidence to support it whatsoever. It's just more metaphysical speculation that allows physicists to publish theoretical papers and cite each other in a cozy little academic coterie.
Even it it were true, the full existential and philosophical implications of many world realism are unknown.
Whatever the 'truth' is about ultimate reality, the chances of any current theory having got it right are vanishingly small.

What is consciousness and what are the conditions for subjective identity? If someone were to create an identical version of you, would there be two separate consciousnesses or one consciousness having two experiences at the same time?

Why were you born as you with your subjective identity? There seems to be no sufficient reason for it based on our limited perspectives, and saying that there is some kind of cosmological loop that recreates the same reality over and over doesn't answer that but pushes it back a stage and just highlights the absurdity of the whole thing.

Whatever reality is or the meaning of existence, it is highly likely that it is something that no one has ever imagined.

I'm curious as to why you're pushing a nihilistic nightmare scenario with such apparent certainty given how little we actually know about the universe, reality, time, infinity, consciousness, subjectivity etc, especially on a suicide forum where people are suffering enough as it is.

 

[Neowise]

What if, after a billion years after the sun explodes, or earth is destroyed, it catalyzes the exact same circumstances that created earth in the first place. What if everything follows as exactly as it did in this planet. What if we are forced to live this cycle of life over and over again as ourselves, unbeknownst that we have walked these steps in life before.

That is actually an interesting theory. I had the same exact idea when I heard that the universe is still expanding starting from one point and will eventually start retracting back into one point. I thought maybe the universe pulsates and history repeats itself every X years. I even saw this as a possible explanation why déjá-vus are a thing (the feeling when something happens and you feel like you've "dreamed" that before).

I don't know if I can believe my own theory there. But I have no arguments against it.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

that the universe is still expanding starting from one point and will eventually start retracting back into one point. I thought maybe the universe pulsates and history repeats itself every X years.

According to current cosmological data, the universe is flat and is accelerating in its expansion, and will continue to do so until heat death, at which point it will no longer be able to 'retract' due the maximum entropy state. The dark matter which makes up about 85% of all matter in the universe is actually contributing to the increasing expansion.
More likely than a big crunch scenario (although still probably wrong) is some kind of conformal cyclic cosmology model (CCC), where the future conformal boundary of the universe when it reaches maximum dispersion 'becomes' the beginning of another universe in the form of a singularity, through conformal rescaling.
There is currently not much empirical data to support CCC and it is a general relativity model, so that if general relativity turns out to be truly incompatible with quantum mechanics and those two domains cannot be unified, then CCC is almost certainly mistaken.

I even saw this as a possible explanation why déjá-vus are a thing (the feeling when something happens and you feel like you've "dreamed" that before).

Deja vu is equally compatible with reincarnation.
Or it could have more mundane explanations, like having experienced a similar thing before but having forgotten it and only retained unconscious memory traces which become 'triggered' when similar perceptions are registered. Or the deja vu situation may be a replication of a dream which has been forgotten, but which has left unconscious remnants.

Memory is very intriguing and not as understood as mainstream scientists like to claim. It's true that brain damage can lead to loss of memories, but there may be several explanations for this. Specific neural structures could just 'be' certain memories, but there is no actual hard evidence for such a reductionistic theory. No single memory has ever been identified with a specific neural structure or set of neurons. Only general correlations have been established.

What could be happening is that the brain acts as a kind of retrieval system or hard drive, which stores and 'reads' a memory disk which exists outside the retrieval system itself, on a parallel plane of some sort, perhaps a parallel time dimension which is not spatial. There is this strange phenomenon called 'terminal lucidity', where just before death, a person suffering from dementia or other neurological disorders suddenly returns to mental clarity with all their previous memories intact. How can this be explained if memories are just neurological structures or sets of neurons?

Rupert Sheldrake has this to say about how memory doesn't appear to be 'located' anywhere in other species like caterpillars and worms, based on experiments:

"When caterpillars turn into butterflies, for instance, in the pupa the whole body of the caterpillar sort of melts down, including the nervous system. You can train caterpillars to prefer certain kinds of food – new ones which their ancestors might never have come across – and then, when the butterfly appears, we find that they seek out these particular food plants to lay eggs for the next generation. So the memory of that learning survives the meltdown of the entire nervous system.

There are several other examples of this kind of thing; for instance, flat worms. (planaria). These don't have a very big brain, but what they have is in their head, and they are interesting because they have an extraordinary regenerative capacity. They can be trained to recognise certain features of their environment, so in a recent experiment, they were trained in this way, and then their heads were cut off. And it was found that when they had regrown a head, they still remembered what they had learned before. So this shows clearly that their memory was not in the brain in the first place."

 

[yetme]

I've been wondering this as well because I used to hang myself impulsively. I would wonder if the me in another universe was successful and if I was just in the one where I failed. What scares my about CTB is that I might wake up again in another version of this life, but the me in this reality would actually be successful. ughhh

you just described a quantum suicide theory.
btw it's author died and left a note to burn his body and through his ashes in the garbage bin, because he believed in his many world theory.
I really hope that this is true and there's another universe where we are all happy and healthy.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

According to current cosmological data, the universe is flat and is accelerating in its expansion, and will continue to do so until heat death, at which point it will no longer be able to 'retract' due the maximum entropy state.

So now there are Flat Universers as well as Flat Earthers??

 

[demuic]

Sorry, sounds like a load of crap. All of this is just speculation and thought experiments, most of which has no basis in reality or reason to believe it other than "it sounds cool". I don't understand getting anxious over fictitious scenarios. I do find such things interesting to think about, but there's no reason to take any such things as fact and certainty when no one can or has proven anything.

 

[needaplan]

interestingly the universe has some similarities with neurons in the human brain. Yes - we can simulate life in a computer. Yes - we can use natural principles, copy and modify them to the point that they are useful to us. But this spark of life, which connects and I quote another user "meat with electricity" is something that can only b achieved by a natural process. This composition of life, which connects us to nature, our solarsystem and the universe. The composition makes it so mysterious, a calculation that exact makes it hard to believe for me, that it has no deeper meaning.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

So now there are Flat Universers as well as Flat Earthers??

precisely.
The flatness can come in many different flavors.
Flat universe + round earth, round universe + flat earth, flat universe + flat earth and round universe + round earth.
More likely is the first one.