Procreation is murder preceded by decades of torture.

[Darkover]

Procreation is ethically worse than murder

Both involve the same highly unethical act of deciding over life or death for someone else without their consent, deciding for someone else whether they should exist or not, whether they should be an existing consciousness in this world or not. But at least the consequence of murder is the sweet release of death, while the consequence of birth is everything but death is a sweet release from.
Childbirth creates an entirely new death that would not have happened otherwise. Refraining from having a child is the only way to truly prevent another person's death - not just delay it. When you have a child, you have now created a new person who will suffer and die


Procreation is one of the worst crimes that anyone can commit. Someone who procreate acted in all possible immoral ways:

1- Denied consent

2- Enslaved, because now the child will be forced to work to live.

3- acted selfishly.

4- condemned death, because the only certainty of life is death.

5- tortured, because now the child will have to deal with dramas and possibly other horrible things that life does.

 

[davidtorez]

Don't forget to add that there is also the option of adoption available to people who really want children. Save a life, don't create more suffering and start a life.

 

[dolemitedrums]

Life didn't work out in one way or another for most of us...but we don't need to project that onto the world. I am certainly glad that the people I care about were born and that they by and large enjoy and want to continue life.

 

[Ash]

If any mods are reading this, do you think we could have a special section for the daily message of doom? I thought we'd get a break when I saw that a certain someone had received a temporary ban.

 

[Tesha]

Rather than write endless posts of negativity, you could always consider embracing the good things in life. Smile, laugh, share some happiness…

 

[indefinitesleep]

I really like this forum but some people on here have the worst takes

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do hold antinatilist views myself but, I'm not sure I'd go this far. I think you have to take into consideration that some people are genuinely grateful for their lives. They at least seem delighted that they got to experience life- even if some parts of it were unpleasant. I don't think it's fair to just call them wrong or delluded because their perspective on life is different.

I'd only go so far to say that having a child exposes it to enormous risk. Certain things are inevitable- it will die some day. It will more than likely have to witness other deaths along the way. It will very likely be in pain at points. It will have to conform to societies rules or suffer horrible consequences. It will very likely need to earn money and make it's own way in life (unless you're mega rich.) There are also so many things you can't protect it from- abuse, rape, bullying, murder, failure, aging, illness.

To me, it's not necessarily that a parent will definitely be condemning a child to a terrible life. It's that they (to my mind) are taking such an enormous risk with someone else's life- which to me, doesn't seem fair- on the off chance that it might be ok. Even if the likelihood is it will be ok, it still seems too risky to me.

Add to that the influence of genes, hereditary illnesses- including mental illness. Just how well placed the parents are to actually parent. Is their relationship stable? Just what kind of environment will that child grow up in? Can they even afford a child? Genes too really. What are the parents good at? That child will likely take after them. Will they be able to find work in what they'll likely enjoy? I'm glad my creative genes will die with me. Most creative people I know are unhappy on some level.

That all said, I have friends with children and they do seem ok so far- thank goodness. I don't think it's a given that all people will end up like us but, the possibility is so sad really. I always wonder when I see children about- how life will pan out for them.

 

[Darkover]

I really like this forum but some people on here have the worst takes

is it as immoral to force someone to suffer when they no longer see life worth living as it is as taking someone's life without their consent?
To force people to die when they think that their lives are still worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
To force people to suffer when they think that their lives are no longer worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
it's all about the sovereignty of the individual to choose and they've taken away the right of the individual autonomy they are interfering with that right

 

[indefinitesleep]

is it as immoral to force someone to suffer when they no longer see life worth living as it is as taking someone's life without their consent?
To force people to die when they think that their lives are still worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
To force people to suffer when they think that their lives are no longer worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
it's all about the sovereignty of the individual to choose and they've taken away the right of the individual autonomy they are interfering with that right

i agree with us being able to take our own lives without interfering, or having some euthenazia legalized. but that doesnt mean you whipe everyone out or stop people from creating life.

 

[DreamEnd]

If any mods are reading this, do you think we could have a special section for the daily message of doom? I thought we'd get a break when I saw that a certain someone had received a temporary ban.

Amen

 

[davidtorez]

I really like this forum but some people on here have the worst takes

Even adoption over procreation ?

 

[indefinitesleep]

Even adoption over procreation ?

adoption is a good thing but this guys just saying we should just stop reproducing entirely till the human race just dies off I mean cmon now

 

[Darkover]

adoption is a good thing but this guys just saying we should just stop reproducing entirely till the human race just dies off I mean cmon now

The non-existent are not deprived of any pleasure. They crave neither for being born, nor for the joys of the world. Does such a place exist where unborn babies cry out that they're being deprived of enjoying the joys this world has to offer?

 

[doneforlife]

is it as immoral to force someone to suffer when they no longer see life worth living as it is as taking someone's life without their consent?
To force people to die when they think that their lives are still worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
To force people to suffer when they think that their lives are no longer worth living would be an undue interference with people's freedom.
it's all about the sovereignty of the individual to choose and they've taken away the right of the individual autonomy they are interfering with that right

I agree. One should have the choice.

 

[indefinitesleep]

The non-existent are not deprived of any pleasure. They crave neither for being born, nor for the joys of the world. Does such a place exist where unborn babies cry out that they're being deprived of enjoying the joys this world has to offer?

life is pain for alot of us, me included i wanna pass as bad as anything but most people i care for love life, why deprive people that pleasure if it suits them, we'r living the human experience sometimes its not for you sometimes it is

 

[UKscotty]

Almost like FC is back with the daily gloom and pro death evilness.

Most people are happy to be alive and grateful.

The whole consent to be alive thing makes absolutely no sense as someone who doesn't exist can't consent. They can decide to leave life if they are one of the 0.01% who doesn't want life.

Just because we suffer doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

[Darkover]

The whole consent to be alive thing makes absolutely no sense as someone who doesn't exist can't consent. They can decide to leave life if they are one of the 0.01% who doesn't want life.

the number that cbt each lifetime is close to 1 percent, the number of attempted suicides is 16 percent of the population in a lifetime

Most people are happy to be alive and grateful.

1.3 billion people – or 16% of the global population – experience a significant disability today
16 percent of the world's population have a mental illness
As many as 828 million people were affected by hunger in 2021 thats 9.8% of the world population
9.2% of the global population, or about 700 million people, live in extreme poverty.

 

[Tesha]

1.3 billion people – or 16% of the global population – experience a significant disability today
16 percent of the world's population have a mental illness

Neither of which indicate that a person is unhappy or unfulfilled with their lives.

 

[Darkover]

Neither of which indicate that a person is unhappy or unfulfilled with their lives.

5 percent of them have depression next you'll be saying you can have depression and still be happy

 

[thewalkingdread]

do you think we could have a special section for the daily message of doom

This forum already has a section for suicidal pro-lifers. It's called RECOVERY.

Do you really expect that, in a pro-choice suicide forum, people are going to be talking about sunshine and rainbows? Get real...

 

[UKscotty]

the number that cbt each lifetime is close to 1 percent, the number of attempted suicides is 16 percent of the population in a lifetime

1.3 billion people – or 16% of the global population – experience a significant disability today
16 percent of the world's population have a mental illness
As many as 828 million people were affected by hunger in 2021 thats 9.8% of the world population
9.2% of the global population, or about 700 million people, live in extreme poverty.

Don't assume just because someone is disabled or poor that they are suffering though. That's nazi ideology, putting them all to death.

Happiness and suffering is internal. Many people are happy with what they have in life.

Suicides are not even close to 0.01% let alone 1% only a couple of million a year CTB which is tiny compared to the global population.

 

[Darkover]

Suicides are not even close to 0.01% let alone 1% only a couple of million a year CTB which is tiny compared to the global population.

i suggest you do your maths if you know you how to use a calculator then come back to me

 

[Tesha]

5 percent of them have depression next you'll be saying you can have depression and still be happy

Gosh, you better sit down for this.

Yes, it's possible to have depression and also feel happiness.

But you already know that….

 

[DreamEnd]

i suggest you do your maths if you know you how to use a calculator then come back to me

Suicide

Every year more than 700 000 people take their own life and there are many more people who attempt suicide.

www.who.int

Overview. Every year 703 000 people take their own life and there are many more people who attempt suicide.Aug 28, 2023

Out of how many people living? 7 and a half billion?

 

[Darkover]

Suicide

Every year more than 700 000 people take their own life and there are many more people who attempt suicide.

www.who.int

Overview. Every year 703 000 people take their own life and there are many more people who attempt suicide.Aug 28, 2023

Out of how many people living? 7 and a half billion?

only 0.01% of people CTB per year 800,000 people die of suicide not in an average lifetime, it's estimated that for every successful suicide there are 20 attempts, that's 0.2% percent of the population attempting suicide each year and over the span of the average lifetime that's 1,280,000,000 attempts or 16 percent of the population attempting suicide or 64 million deaths in an average lifetime 0.8% percent of the population committing suicide

 

[divinemistress36]

When you have had a really hard life it sure feels this way. Most people have some appreciation for life we are in the minority mental illness and brain injuries disort our perception of everything

 

[DreamEnd]

only 0.01% of people CTB per year 800,000 people die of suicide not in an average lifetime, it's estimated that for every successful suicide there are 20 attempts, that's 0.2% percent of the population attempting suicide each year and over the span of the average lifetime that's 1,280,000,000 attempts or 16 percent of the population attempting suicide or 64 million deaths in an average lifetime 0.8% percent of the population committing suicide

Why calculate it over lifetime? Can you send a link where you got that?

 

[Darkover]

Why calculate it over lifetime?

why calculate it by the year

Why calculate it over lifetime? Can you send a link where you got that?

why calculate it by the year, i write it my self and calculate it my self with a percentage calculate https://percentagecalculator.net/
global 8,000,000,000 billion population,

More than 700 000 people die by suicide every year. For each suicide, there are an estimated 20 suicide attempts.
https://www.who.int/health-topics/suicide

 

[Tesha]

You're presuming that someone only ever attempts suicide once in their lifetime. We know that's not true. You're also not taking into account the abilities of people over an average lifetime … for example not many babies are capable of attempting suicide.

 

[Lady Laudanum]

Yikes, did FC have a second account all along? Lol