Venting Pro-life logic. i don't even understand..

[TAW122]

I often hear a lot of pro-lifers say that suicide is not the answer or that it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Personally, I believe that anyone, even if they are healthy and lead a decent life (objectively and subjectively speaking) should still have the right to choose when they decide they want to go or simply had it with life. Therefore, I disagree with their premise off the bat.

However, (putting myself in their shoes and from their point of view) I can see that their reasoning is valid only under the circumstances where one has a high probability (is probably) of improvement or if one is able (has the means - be it physical ability, financial means, social means, etc.) to recover and live a good life (objectively and subjectively).

Now here is where their logic makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Consider two scenarios: Scenario A where one is physically healthy, leads a good life, but has a bad patch or temporary problem of some sort, Scenario B where one is severely disabled, doesn't have a good life, health and life circumstances are deteriorating with little prospects of improvement. In Scenario A, it makes sense (even if I don't agree with it since I believe in the right to die - but it is still valid) for the person to continue trying to get better or make efforts to improve it before giving up. But then, in Scenario B, the same shitheads screech life over death and to continue fighting and living despite the prognosis. This is just fucked up because there isn't a time where they ACCEPT that death is a good solution, not even for terminally ill people. Just looking at some of comments and replys on these threads (#1 quadriplegic after accident, #2 injured athlete unable to live his dreams) makes my fucking blood boil! Especially when pro-lifers resort to mental illness and irrationality (which is another topic for another thread) as their reasons for anti-suicide, choose-life bullshit! No, these people become depressed due to their fucking circumstances not because of chemical imbalance or irrationality, plus depression doesn't imply irrationality or not thinking straight (otherwise almost all criminals can just play the depression card and never be held accountable for their crimes.)!

Sorry, I had to get that anger out of me, I'm sure you guys can see the logical flaws and fallacies that pro-lifers use.

 

[Limbo]

virtue signalling.

People dont actually care dude. They just want to feel like good people. Theres little critical thinking involved.

 

[TAW122]

virtue signalling.

People dont actually care dude. They just want to feel like good people. Theres little critical thinking involved.

Yeah I think that's the case with the vast majority of people that aren't like us nor even think similarly or share the same values. I just had to get some steam out since that was bothering me quite a bit over the past few months.

 

[EpidemicOfDenial]

virtue signalling.

People dont actually care dude. They just want to feel like good people. Theres little critical thinking involved.

I had all the evidence I needed after a suicide by cop attempt. Obviously it was intense so afterward I was pretty out of it yelling at everyone, the nurses at the emergency room had no sympathy for me.

They never said that I attempted suicide, although it was obvious that I did. They said that I was incredibly rude, harrassing cops, they pinned me down and drugged me twice, I'm an immigrant and one of the workers told me that I should be grateful that I'm here and to stop causing trouble because it makes us look bad.

Everyone saw the surface, no one saw the suffering underneath, nor cared. The psychiatrists are probably the worst of all, because they pathologize cultural norms, if I lived in ancient Athens, or in Japan as a Kamikaze pilot, or in stoic society, I'd be branded a hero for committing suicide.

But not here. The business owners need a workforce, and they can't afford to have their employees killing themselves, that would be a great loss of productivity.

 

[EpidemicOfDenial]

virtue signalling.

People dont actually care dude. They just want to feel like good people. Theres little critical thinking involved.

It's not even necessarily feeling like good people. Claiming to have saved someone from suicide is good PR or it looks good on a resume.

 

[DeletedUser4739]

I had all the evidence I needed after a suicide by cop attempt. Obviously it was intense so afterward I was pretty out of it yelling at everyone, the nurses at the emergency room had no sympathy for me.

They never said that I attempted suicide, although it was obvious that I did. They said that I was incredibly rude, harrassing cops, they pinned me down and drugged me twice, I'm an immigrant and one of the workers told me that I should be grateful that I'm here and to stop causing trouble because it makes us look bad.

Everyone saw the surface, no one saw the suffering underneath, nor cared. The psychiatrists are probably the worst of all, because they pathologize cultural norms, if I lived in ancient Athens, or in Japan as a Kamikaze pilot, or in stoic society, I'd be branded a hero for committing suicide.

But not here. The business owners need a workforce, and they can't afford to have their employees killing themselves, that would be a great loss of productivity.

True. One of the primary measures of the impact of depression on a society is how many days of work are lost due to it. What about all the days depressed people go to work? All the people too depressed to work? What a said reflection of a culture's shit values.

 

[EpidemicOfDenial]

True. One of the primary measures of the impact of depression on a society is how many days of work are lost due to it. What about all the days depressed people go to work? All the people too depressed to work? What a said reflection of a culture's shit values.

Outside the West it's even worse. In a Foxconn factory in China, where the assemble electronics w/ assembly lines, they placed a net around the top of the factory building to prevent the workers (who worked 16hrs/day, 6 or 7 days a week) from jumping off the building.

Not because they cared, but they needed them to get back to work.

 

[DeletedUser4739]

Outside the West it's even worse. In a Foxconn factory in China, where the assemble electronics w/ assembly lines, they placed a net around the top of the factory building to prevent the workers (who worked 16hrs/day, 6 or 7 days a week) from jumping off the building.

Not because they cared, but they needed them to get back to work.

Yes, I've seen that as well as bars being placed on the windows to keep workers inside. One small thing we can do is not buy stuff made in China and avoid fast fashion, regardless of origin.

The world is sure a fucked up place though. Those factories are a paradise compared to the children working in the coltan mining pits of the Congo.

 

[EpidemicOfDenial]

Yes, I've seen that as well as bars being placed on the windows to keep workers inside. One small thing we can do is not buy stuff made in China and avoid fast fashion, regardless of origin.

The world is sure a fucked up place though. Those factories are a paradise compared to the children working in the coltan mining pits of the Congo.

I'm currently in Kenya right now. Studying politics & economy is my passion. But there are levels even lower than the Congolese mining pits, there's also human slave trafficking rings in Thailand & Libya. There's the drug cartels in Latin America which utilize gruesome torture tactics.

There's the US military which funds rebel groups to subvert enemy governments (e.g. funding rebels in the 80s to overthrow the Afghani government), only to have their plan backfire by their beneficiaries turning against them.

The solution in my mind is not to buy goods elsewhere, because then that elsewhere will most likely replicate identical mal-working conditions (e.g. Bangladesh, Vietnam).

It is inevitable that by living, one causes suffering. Anyone who is legitimately moral is obliged to commit suicide as a form of boycott until the world is no longer predatory.

 

[DeletedUser4739]

I'm currently in Kenya right now. Studying politics & economy is my passion. But there are levels even lower than the Congolese mining pits, there's also human slave trafficking rings in Thailand & Libya. There's the drug cartels in Latin America which utilize gruesome torture tactics.

There's the US military which funds rebel groups to subvert enemy governments (e.g. funding rebels in the 80s to overthrow the Afghani government), only to have their plan backfire by their beneficiaries turning against them.

The solution in my mind is not to buy goods elsewhere, because then that elsewhere will most likely replicate identical mal-working conditions (e.g. Bangladesh, Vietnam).

It is inevitable that by living, one causes suffering. Anyone who is legitimately moral is obliged to commit suicide as a form of boycott until the world is no longer predatory.

I had blocked out the recent human slave auction in Libya that I saw online a few weeks ago. You're so right, it just goes from bad to worse and even worse. The role the US plays in the destabilization and violence is appalling. You're right, my suggestion was a band-aid on a gaping wound. I like your perspective on suicide and had never thought of it that way before. Definitely gives fuel to my fire.

 

[DesperateChallenge]

I agree with you. I was thinking about this the other day. Why does/should anyone have the right to tell me that I have to live? In two of my suicide attempts I was found unresponsive and they probably would have worked (according to the doctors) had someone not found me. What gives doctors the right to treat me, to force me to live when I clearly don't want to? What gives someone the right to tell me I have to go to the ER for a psych eval because I'm suicidal?

I had surgery two years ago for a severe infection and they came in with a case manager for the standard paperwork of "what should we do if you go into cardiac arrest"? They wanted me to consent to life saving measures, check the block and be done with it. I told them DNR. They flipped out, saying that option is usually only given to elderly or those with severe health problems, and "nothing is that bad". They then brought a social worker in to do an eval on me and essentially forced me to consent to life saving measures if something were to happen, otherwise they were going to admit me into the psych unit.

I know it's not the popular opinion with the general public, but I should be able to choose when, where, and how I die without feeling like I'm backed into a corner to choose life.

 

[Prime]

Its never wise to argue with a pro-lifer. Why? Simply 'cause they are brainwashed. They have a pro-life answer ready even before you finish your sentence.

 

[bigj75]

Pro lifers are delusional

 

[starcrossedfate]

Its never wise to argue with a pro-lifer. Why? Simply 'cause they are brainwashed. They have a pro-life answer ready even before you finish your sentence.

They're like NPC's.

 

[Trashcan]

I don't understand the thought process of you could be in the worst situation imaginable, but as long as you're alive, you should be grateful.

Edit: changed "though" to "thought"

 

[Morbid Cam]

I was hoping someone else would say it but when has a permanent solution ever been a bad thing? And in what other context do people ever use a "permanent" solution as a complaint or a con?

 

[DeletedUser4739]

I was hoping someone else would say it but when has a permanent solution ever been a bad thing? And in what other context do people ever use a "permanent" solution as a complaint or a con?

Never thought about those questions. I think the answers may have something to do with the stigma regarding suicide. Just like the phrase "commit suicide" is unusual wording to say the least. The verb "commit" suggests a criminal act. One can't even die without judgement.

 

[worldexploder]

Their is no logic in being pro-life.

"Pro-lifers" are some of the most brutal motherfuckers on the planet. Take Bush for example - so "pro life" he banned federal funding for embryonic stem cell research yet was perfectly content with causing the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis.