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Alucard

Alucard

Wizard
Feb 8, 2019
606
After opening a topic on the concrete means to commit suicide without pain (which I hope will bear fruit), I propose to open a second one to share the philosophers' reflections - as well as ours - showing that life is not a duty and that it is absurd to condemn someone to live ; so, now that we have the medical means to die without pain, it is intolerable that these means are not available in pharmacy, accessible to all.

To begin, I propose an article I wrote on the subject. Here it is.

"Jean-Paul Sartre and Albert Camus have shown - each in their own way - that life is absurd. "The absurd is the essential notion and the first truth," writes Camus in The Myth of Sisyphus. "The absurd, finally, is one with the human condition," writes Sartre in Situations. This does not mean that we can not give meaning to our life, but that life has no meaning that pre-exists us, that is, that would have been defined for us before our birth: it has only the meaning we give it.
If life had an intrinsic meaning, in other words if it was not absurd, it would mean that the meaning would be imposed from outside and that we would not choose it: we would be subject to this meaning, which would be foolish. On the contrary, if life is absurd, then it belongs to us, since we choose the meaning we give it. The absurd is therefore the condition of our existential freedom: if it has scary aspects in that it deprives us of landmarks, it is above all the mark of our dignity.
If life had meaning, it would also imply that the sufferings we endure and the horrors of history are part of this meaning and are therefore legitimate: to deny the absurd is therefore an intellectual terrorism justifying the unjustifiable: if everything makes sense, so Nazism and Daesh too. To say that life has meaning is to resign oneself to the unacceptable. On the contrary, to say that it is absurd is to rebel against the fool and thus become aware of his moral responsibility: if life is unjust, then it becomes urgent to bring about justice through his actions. If God had a plan that wars, diseases and natural disasters served, and if this plan constituted the meaning of life, then that meaning would be morally intolerable, which is why Cioran writes in his Accuracy of Decomposition: "The life does not make sense, it can not have any. We should kill ourselves on the spot if an unexpected revelation persuades us to the contrary. Indeed, such a meaning would be absurd!
Once we understand that life is absurd, that it belongs to us, and that we are the only ones - we human beings - to be able to build meaning, it becomes absurd to prevent people from dying on the pretext that they do not have their life and they have to live for something other than themselves (God, society or family). If our life belongs to no one but ourselves (neither to God nor to doctors), as we have shown, then every human being, in the name of his dignity, must have the choice to live or not to live, that is to say to die when he decides. Far from being a "morbid" thought, it is rather an affirmation of life: only the freedom to die when it is decided makes it possible to live by choice, by a taste for life, and not by constraint. But the difference between living by choice and living by coercion is the same as that between a love story and a rape ... by choice in the first case, by force in the second case.
Therefore, when a person no longer wishes to live, because of an incurable disease or other factors, to help him die in dignity is our moral duty; to condemn it to live, on the contrary, is the most unjust and arbitrary cruelty (in the name of what to condemn to live?). This is our ambition : to allow everyone to die with dignity when life is no longer a joy ... to live worthily, ie by will and not by force, before death . That laws forbidding euthanasia show that we have not yet come out of barbarism and that religious obscurantism still reigns. But let us dare to be a little Hegelian: by our struggle, reason and freedom will eventually triumph over chaos."

So, let's expose our arguments against this aberrant and cruel society...​
 
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J

JustAboutDone

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2019
3,532
I'm sorry not to be able to enter the discussion but I just wanted to say that your English is superb! I think I saw on a thread you posted, when you joined yesterday, that you were French and struggled with English but, honestly, not at all. It's amazing.
 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
After opening a topic on the concrete means to commit suicide without pain (which I hope will bear fruit), I propose to open a second one to share the philosophers' reflections - as well as ours - showing that life is not a duty and that it is absurd to condemn someone to live ; so, now that we have the medical means to die without pain, it is intolerable that these means are not available in pharmacy, accessible to all.

To begin, I propose an article I wrote on the subject. Here it is.

"Jean-Paul Sartre and Albert Camus have shown - each in their own way - that life is absurd. "The absurd is the essential notion and the first truth," writes Camus in The Myth of Sisyphus. "The absurd, finally, is one with the human condition," writes Sartre in Situations. This does not mean that we can not give meaning to our life, but that life has no meaning that pre-exists us, that is, that would have been defined for us before our birth: it has only the meaning we give it.
If life had an intrinsic meaning, in other words if it was not absurd, it would mean that the meaning would be imposed from outside and that we would not choose it: we would be subject to this meaning, which would be foolish. On the contrary, if life is absurd, then it belongs to us, since we choose the meaning we give it. The absurd is therefore the condition of our existential freedom: if it has scary aspects in that it deprives us of landmarks, it is above all the mark of our dignity.
If life had meaning, it would also imply that the sufferings we endure and the horrors of history are part of this meaning and are therefore legitimate: to deny the absurd is therefore an intellectual terrorism justifying the unjustifiable: if everything makes sense, so Nazism and Daesh too. To say that life has meaning is to resign oneself to the unacceptable. On the contrary, to say that it is absurd is to rebel against the fool and thus become aware of his moral responsibility: if life is unjust, then it becomes urgent to bring about justice through his actions. If God had a plan that wars, diseases and natural disasters served, and if this plan constituted the meaning of life, then that meaning would be morally intolerable, which is why Cioran writes in his Accuracy of Decomposition: "The life does not make sense, it can not have any. We should kill ourselves on the spot if an unexpected revelation persuades us to the contrary. Indeed, such a meaning would be absurd!
Once we understand that life is absurd, that it belongs to us, and that we are the only ones - we human beings - to be able to build meaning, it becomes absurd to prevent people from dying on the pretext that they do not have their life and they have to live for something other than themselves (God, society or family). If our life belongs to no one but ourselves (neither to God nor to doctors), as we have shown, then every human being, in the name of his dignity, must have the choice to live or not to live, that is to say to die when he decides. Far from being a "morbid" thought, it is rather an affirmation of life: only the freedom to die when it is decided makes it possible to live by choice, by a taste for life, and not by constraint. But the difference between living by choice and living by coercion is the same as that between a love story and a rape ... by choice in the first case, by force in the second case.
Therefore, when a person no longer wishes to live, because of an incurable disease or other factors, to help him die in dignity is our moral duty; to condemn it to live, on the contrary, is the most unjust and arbitrary cruelty (in the name of what to condemn to live?). This is our ambition : to allow everyone to die with dignity when life is no longer a joy ... to live worthily, ie by will and not by force, before death . That laws forbidding euthanasia show that we have not yet come out of barbarism and that religious obscurantism still reigns. But let us dare to be a little Hegelian: by our struggle, reason and freedom will eventually triumph over chaos."

So, let's expose our arguments against this aberrant and cruel society...​
TL;DR. Do you have a favourite eraser?

Oh, and also, "Eh bien, nous avons commis une erreur avec des personnes comme vous, car les procès en public sont des conneries et que les exécutions sont des jeux pour les gagnants - pendant tout ce temps, nous aurions dû rendre la peine. C'est la vraie leçon. C'est la part du perdant, juste de la douleur, pure et simple, de la douleur et de la torture, pas d'avocats chevronnés qui courent partout pour essayer de voir que justice est faite. Je pense que nous aurions un bel endroit paisible ici si tous les spécialistes du chauffage savaient qu'il valait mieux ne pas commencer quelque chose parce que si vous perdez, l'agonie est sur le point de tourner. C'est ce que j'aimerais vous donner. Agonie. Pas ce que tu souffres maintenant. Je veux dire toute une vie, parce que c'est le seul degré de justice auquel je pense que nous sommes prêts pour le moment, et je sais que tout humaniste peut aussi être en désaccord avec moi, mais je ne pense pas que vous le ferez, parce que vous aviez Il y a beaucoup à faire avec mon éducation, je suis comme toi maintenant, sauf que je suis meilleur, parce que tu vas mourir et que j'ai encore un long chemin à parcourir. "
- William Goldman
 
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Raggas

Raggas

Suicide is self expression
Dec 31, 2018
306
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every mail has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person." - Schopenhauer
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,215
"God damn wtf is it with these prole-eiffers man, why can't we live in a Humane Society where my mom gives me the n l want for my birthday, if she hadn't been such a selfish narcissistic bitch and had me in the first place we wouldn't have this problem, man Society sucks" - Confucius
 
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J

JustAboutDone

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2019
3,532
"God damn wtf is it with these prole eiffers man, why can't we live in a Humane Society where my mom gives me the n l want for my birthday, if she hadn't been such a selfish narcissistic bitch and had me in the first place we wouldn't have this problem, man Society sucks" - Confucius

I ham not sure the OP will understand your post as he is French. He has a very similar written style to a user banned a similar time he joined but that is just coincidence.
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Once we understand that life is absurd, that it belongs to us, and that we are the only ones - we human beings - to be able to build meaning, it becomes absurd to prevent people from dying on the pretext that they do not have their life and they have to live for something other than themselves (God, society or family). If our life belongs to no one but ourselves (neither to God nor to doctors), as we have shown, then every human being, in the name of his dignity, must have the choice to live or not to live, that is to say to die when he decides. Far from being a "morbid" thought, it is rather an affirmation of life: only the freedom to die when it is decided makes it possible to live by choice, by a taste for life, and not by constraint. But the difference between living by choice and living by coercion is the same as that between a love story and a rape ... by choice in the first case, by force in the second case.
Therefore, when a person no longer wishes to live, because of an incurable disease or other factors, to help him die in dignity is our moral duty; to condemn it to live, on the contrary, is the most unjust and arbitrary cruelty (in the name of what to condemn to live?). This is our ambition : to allow everyone to die with dignity when life is no longer a joy ... to live worthily, ie by will and not by force, before death . That laws forbidding euthanasia show that we have not yet come out of barbarism and that religious obscurantism still reigns. But let us dare to be a little Hegelian: by our struggle, reason and freedom will eventually triumph over chaos."

In good faith from a place nearby to where this came from and to your own thoughts too, I think it runs dubiously close to ideology when it first doesn't approach life with the same logic. It is however, much less convenient. It could be that I am not as familiar as you are with the texts and ideas you cited or that I am lazy because I am tired but can't sleep and just misread but we wouldn't allow the same social constructs preventing death, to cause those deaths, and I think that's where it has to begin. It isn't by any measure universal but I don't need to cite examples on the forum of people wanting to die because of coercive forces like economy and markets, work, States, gender, class etc..and we end up with a choice still provided to us by what holds domain over the present. There are moral constructs that stand as law, and if this seeks those laws out to rail against instead of against all laws, all constructs, and society, then it is firmly rooted in the realm of politics.




 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
I'm sorry not to be able to enter the discussion but I just wanted to say that your English is superb! I think I saw on a thread you posted, when you joined yesterday, that you were French and struggled with English but, honestly, not at all. It's amazing.
I agree. Amazing, at least, that here "Alucard" isn't writing with that affected "English as a second language style" he used in the other posts. His English is perfectly grammatical here.
I ham not sure the OP will understand your post as he is French. He has a very similar written style to a user banned a similar time he joined but that is just coincidence.
Haha, he's not French, but bilingual all the same. He can write like a native speaker in both English and French.
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
7SSI.gif
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
What's yer point?

You entered into a thread where two people have posted to each other, and are accusing them or the content of being pretentious. So I asked you if you want to talk about the topic, and if you even can, because if you can't talk about the topic, it means that you are pretending to know that something is pretentious, which is faking the appearance of knowledge, which makes you pretentious and the other two people not so much.


tldr stop writing checks you silly internet guy
 
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BlackDragonof1989

BlackDragonof1989

Mage
Jul 12, 2018
526
You entered into a thread where two people have posted to each other, and are accusing them or the content of being pretentious. So I asked you if you want to talk about the topic, and if you even can, because if you can't talk about the topic, it means that you are pretending to know that something is pretentious, which is faking the appearance of knowledge, which makes you pretentious and the other two people not so much.


tldr stop writing checks you silly internet guy
Euh my mind just broke ah sorry I just gotta be a buffer ah buff on me guys <3 I'm a buffer ^^
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129

So what's your point pal?
That I choose not to indulge in some pretentious diatribe about the philosophical aspects of suicide?
I doubt that the majority of people who commit suicide even give it a second thought. They are driven to it by circumstance and desperation, and I'm sure many are spur of the moment. The post reeks of the same pompous attitude of yesterday's man who had a bug up his arse about the lack of attention his well thought out contributions were receiving.
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,215
The post reeks of the same pompous attitude of yesterday's man who had a bug up his arse about the lack of attention his well thought out contributions were receiving.

In defence of the OP l doubt he/she is that same person, NoChoice probably thought Albert Camus played for Arsenal for a start.
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
In defence of the OP l doubt he/she is that same person, NoChoice probably thought Albert Camus played for Arsenal for a start.
NoChoice tried to get back in the door but his well thought out intellectual plea was dismissed as being too low effort for a forum of this calibre. I really think members should have to pass an intellect test before being allowed to enrol. There's all kinds of riff raff allowed in here, and I really think it detracts from ethos that this forum represents, some people seem to think it's Facebook or some other trivial social media site.
 
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J

JustAboutDone

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2019
3,532
NoChoice tried to get back in the door but his well thought out intellectual plea was dismissed as being too low effort for a forum of this calibre. I really think members should have to pass an intellect test before being allowed to enrol. There's all kinds of riff raff allowed in here, and I really think it detracts from ethos that this forum represents, some people seem to think it's Facebook or some other trivial social media site.

How do I do the five stars thing you do?
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
So what's your point pal?

That you went out of your way to enter into a thread to insult two people instead of contributing to the discussion. You are faking knowledge on the topic, you have no such knowledge to make the claim that it is pretentious.

That I choose not to indulge in some pretentious diatribe about the philosophical aspects of suicide?
So instead you try to control discourse on a public internet forum? Have you proven through discussion how it's pretentious? Surely with your prowess on the topic you could do this in several sentences.


I doubt that the majority of people who commit suicide even give it a second thought.

Give what a second thought? Why they're stressed out? Why they're poor? What contributes to making them want to take their life? Their regrets and so on? You actually believe this, do you read anybody else's threads or posts on here except your own?

They are driven to it by circumstance and desperation,

Oh? What was that first word you used there? Circumstance?

and I'm sure many are spur of the moment.

And if you had read my post you would have seen that I already stated this!



The post reeks of the same pompous attitude of yesterday's man who had a bug up his arse about the lack of attention his well thought out contributions were receiving.

I was perfectly content discussing the topic with the op which is why I was in here posting to them and not in one of your threads posting to you.
 
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Othermind

Othermind

Specialist
Dec 26, 2018
301
So what's your point pal?
That I choose not to indulge in some pretentious diatribe about the philosophical aspects of suicide?
I doubt that the majority of people who commit suicide even give it a second thought. They are driven to it by circumstance and desperation, and I'm sure many are spur of the moment. The post reeks of the same pompous attitude of yesterday's man who had a bug up his arse about the lack of attention his well thought out contributions were receiving.
Not to mention we get this kind of drivel almost on an hourly basis.
The very fact that you're on an explicitly pro-choice forum regarding suicide should be validation enough for you. No need to reiterate it ad nauseam.
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
That you went out of your way to enter into a thread to insult two people instead of contributing to the discussion. You are faking knowledge on the topic, you have no such knowledge to make the claim that it is pretentious.
Good for you, I'm happy for you..

So instead you try to control discourse on a public internet forum? Have you proven through discussion how it's pretentious? Surely with your prowess on the topic you could do this in several sentences.




Give what a second thought? Why they're stressed out? Why they're poor? What contributes to making them want to take their life? Their regrets and so on? You actually believe this, do you read anybody else's threads or posts on here except your own?



Oh? What was that first word you used there? Circumstance?



And if you had read my post you would have seen that I already stated this!





I was perfectly content discussing the topic with the op which is why I was in here posting to them and not in one of your threads posting to you.

Good I'm happy for you.
 
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Othermind

Othermind

Specialist
Dec 26, 2018
301
Oh? What was that first word you used there? Circumstance?
OP never mentioned any specific circumstances, though.
He just rattled off a long, pretentious psuedo-philosophical spiel that essentialy boils down to "It's okay to ctb", which everybody on a forum like this already agree on, aside from the few that googled the wrong thing looking for some weird porn but decided to give it a go anyway.
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Not to mention we get this kind of drivel almost on an hourly basis.
The very fact that you're on an explicitly pro-choice forum regarding suicide should be validation enough for you. No need to reiterate it ad nauseam.

If people want to discuss various topics, why not?
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
OP never mentioned any specific circumstances, though.
He just rattled off a long, pretentious psuedo-philosophical spiel that essentialy boils down to "It's okay to ctb", which everybody on a forum like this already agree on, aside from the few that googled the wrong thing looking for some weird porn but decided to give it a go anyway.

My post challenged what they were saying in that regard because while they were calling out the social constructs preventing death, they weren't doing so with social constructs preventing life or causing the deaths.

(Also jtf boldly claimed "I doubt that the majority of people who commit suicide even give it a second thought."They are driven to it by circumstance and desperation")
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Goodness I hope to christ all that nonsense is over with.

@Alucard

I'm still interested in talking about your original post.
 
Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
"I doubt that the majority of people who commit suicide even give it a second thought."They are driven to it by circumstance and desperation"
Nothing bold in that claim mate,I was merely stating that they are hardly going to concern themselves with the philosophical perspectives of the act they are about to perform. I'm fairly certain that they are not going to waste their time ruminating and just get on with the task in order to end their suffering.
Regarding your original stab at me, I was unaware it was a closed thread and my type were unwelcome to voice an opinion. Won't happen again sir, I'll just get me cloth cap and tackety boots on and leave you to it sir.
 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
If people want to discuss various topics, why not?
OP wasn't discussing something. He was stroking his dick ego. No rule against that, it's just a little bit revolting, but he's been on the forum before, and he should not be back.

Edit: And no, it's not NoChoice. NoChoice and his rather odd IQ/effort kink is an entirely different species of gnat.
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Nothing bold in that claim mate,I was merely stating that they are hardly going to concern themselves with the philosophical perspectives of the act they are about to perform. I'm fairly certain that they are not going to waste their time ruminating and just get on with the task in order to end their suffering.

Okay, I get this and I think I understand the lens you're looking through. But can I offer a lens in return, that I am someone here who is a lot like those people and others here, and I am interested in the philosophical aspects of the world around me, as well as the political, economic, social, etc.. Lots of people are. I do get what you're saying and if you reread my original post, when I say 'universal' I literally mean that that isn't the case for everyone and that I respect that. Cheers.

Regarding your original stab at me, I was unaware it was a closed thread and my type were unwelcome to voice an opinion. Won't happen again sir, I'll just get me cloth cap and tackety boots on and leave you to it sir.

You're most certainly not capable of manipulating my emotions but I am so glad to read that you are going to stop shit posting and insulting me in threads that i'm participating in. lhm
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
OP wasn't discussing something. He was stroking his dick ego. No rule against that, it's just a little bit revolting, but he's been on the forum before, and he should not be back.

I got that they kind of went off but some people do, they like to write shit and things that also aren't shit. That's everybody here tbh (didn't know there was back story though). You all realize I was pretty harshly criticizing what they were saying?
 
J

JustAboutDone

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2019
3,532
OP wasn't discussing something. He was stroking his dick ego. No rule against that, it's just a little bit revolting.

It's a lot revolting really. Especially the pseudo French and garnering interest while they are actually mocking people who participate in their weirdery. Urgh
 
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