Offtopic AF: fun fact about oil pipelines

[DarkRange55]

The oil pipeline in Alaska - they heat up oil to help it flow. Similar to how commercial buildings use heat tape on the way to the grease trap. But because of this, the Alaskan pipelines have chiller stations or refrigeration units underneath them to keep the permafrost foundation frozen so the whole thing doesn't sink. The pipelines are also elevated.

There are codes for how deep to burry pipes and the same with the size of the footing on a house so the same thing doesn't happen and the foundation sinks.
All large structures have to have multiple soil reports to get permitted. My building projects used different kinds of pilings to assure they will survive any kind of failure based on soil conditions.
Alaska and Russia Build houses on stilts to keep cold air underneath so they don't melt the permafrost underneath with heat. In NY the average pipe is buried 8 feet down. It freezes 5 feet down in upper state NY. It gets cold and stays cold so it goes down into the earth. Might burry them even deeper in colder climates. Like Alaska permafrost might be different. They're buried one foot deep here.


One of the guys that I used to work with in engineering, he also worked on the oil pipelines in Alaska. And one of my friend's dad is one of only five appraisers of oil pipelines in Alaska. A friend of mine also made a fortune building temporary housing for oil workers and the national guard up there.

 

[DarkRange55]

Edit: as far as dirt being an insulator - Dirt has enough air pockets in it to act as a decent thermal insulator (but sitting on dirt is still colder than sitting on a cushion). With no continuous metal, dirt is a poor electrical conductor. Thick dirt (a few feet) has enough mass to block radiation.

 

[Tesha]

The permafrost can also cause the borehole casing and wellheads to eventually pop out of the ground….

 

[DarkRange55]

The permafrost can also cause the borehole casing and wellheads to eventually pop out of the ground….

Yes, that is correct!

But generally speaking, melting can cause subsidence (soil and permafrost) and increased corrosion (of metals from melt )

Thermosiphon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They also use insulating materials like most buildings plumbing and HVAC systems (condensation/freeze/scald).

Without getting too technical, subsidence is basically the land sinking.

Subsidence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But yes! Very good point! They don't only sink hahah

 

[Tesha]

It's the freeze / thaw that always catches people out (whether that be pipeline design engineers or general social interactions in everyday life )

I suspect it's actually going to be a bit of an issue on existing infrastructure in permafrost areas, depending on how global warming affects this cycling.

The pipelines in deserts move too, but this time due to thermal expansion.

I have to say, I wasn't expecting this conversation on SaSu tonight!

 

[DarkRange55]

It's the freeze / thaw that always catches people out (whether that be pipeline design engineers or general social interactions in everyday life )

I suspect it's actually going to be a bit of an issue on existing infrastructure in permafrost areas, depending on how global warming affects this cycling.

The pipelines in deserts move too, but this time due to thermal expansion.

I have to say, I wasn't expecting this conversation on SaSu tonight!

the constant freezing and thawing is also a big issue for roads particularly in the midwest. (Coupled with the out of season chains drivers keep on and the heavy weight loads).




Speaking of thermal expansion (off topic)
Increased demand for water in the US has caused water pressure in most parts of the country to increase in some cases dramatically. The amount of water supplied depends on pipe size and pressure. Since it's cheaper to increase the pressure with pumps than it is to replace underground infrastructure, most water companies increased the pressure. This has caused a lot of increased plumbing corrosion. Plumbing codes place the responsibility of regulating water pressure not on the utility but on the home or business being served which restrict pressure to a maximum of 80 PSI. But water pressure supplied by the water company is much higher than that in many places and needs a pressure reducing valve. But it's not uncommon to see 100 PSI. As a result dish washers, ice machines, water heaters, toilets are subject to much greater water pressures than is allowed by code. Water pressure is constantly changing - it cycles being high and low during the night and day. During the day more people are using it so it drops and at night the pressure rises.
It actually can cause water heater tanks to expand and contract and cause micro-cracks in the glass lining which exposes the metal. Also because cold water expands when heated due to thermal expansion. In the past, thermal expansion pushed water at a higher pressure back into the public water supply. Today, in most areas, environmental regulations prohibit this practice and water companies have been required to install back-flow preventers and check valves which are inspected and retagged yearly at least for commercial buildings in the US.

 

[Tesha]

Plumbing codes place the responsibility of regulating water pressure not on the utility but on the home or business being served which restrict pressure to a maximum of 80 PSI

Well that's just stupid IMO.

 

[DarkRange55]

It's the freeze / thaw that always catches people out (whether that be pipeline design engineers or general social interactions in everyday life )

I suspect it's actually going to be a bit of an issue on existing infrastructure in permafrost areas, depending on how global warming affects this cycling.

The pipelines in deserts move too, but this time due to thermal expansion.

I have to say, I wasn't expecting this conversation on SaSu tonight!

In commercial buildings, you can find expansion loops - absorbs thermal expansion in the pipes. And expansion tanks since water expands when heated

 

[Tesha]

I worry my kids sometimes when I have conversations with them about random things that most 'normal' people don't even consider - scaffolding design, electrical UPS devices, pipelines, HP/LP interfaces, independent SIL systems in aircraft design.

I probably need to get better hobbies.

 

[DarkRange55]

Well that's just stupid IMO.

That's my recollection but as you know codes change. I saw some crazy stuff. One building actually used the pool as the back water system for the fire suppression system. The FD was okay with it back in the 1980's when it was built. Can't even imagine that today.
(Municipal water is required for the fire suppression system).

I'm sure a lot of it is just bureaucracy, money changing hands… some is absolutely legitimate safety.

"Many people in the public are persuaded incorrectly that bottled water is a lot safer and a lot cleaner than tap water."
-Eric Olsen drinking water expert with natural resources defense council

NRDC conducted a comprehensive 4 year scientific study of more than 1,000 brands of bottled water. Incredibly results showed that 33% of the bottled waters violated their own industry standards for water quality.
A lot of bottled water does have bacteria and arsenic in it when the NRDC tested it
We're betting it's harmless trace amounts. But 1000 times the price for tap water.

Idk if this is still true but by law bottled water standards must be at least as stringent and as effective of health as the environmental protection agency's standards for public water. But the EPA doesn't enforce bottled water regulations. The FDA does. The Environmental Protection Agency has hundreds of people to regulate tap water. FDA has less than one person. The bottled water companies enjoy a convenient loophole in the system. The FDA says they don't regulate any bottled water that's bottled and sold within the same state. So many states really have no bottled water regulatory program at all.

I worry my kids sometimes when I have conversations with them about random things that most 'normal' people don't even consider - scaffolding design, electrical UPS devices, pipelines, HP/LP interfaces, independent SIL systems in aircraft design.

I probably need to get better hobbies. Just to clarify, I'm not neurodiverse either…

I don't believe I am either. But haha I can definitely appreciate and share that feeling. Hobbies are good, whatever you peruse

 

[lacrimosa]

Here's another fun fact... This one's about wells/rigs.

All the oil wells that have been decommissioned in the past 5 years will start leaking in 10-15 years. This is why they do ground water surveys, etc and need to go through lots of red tape to drill an oil well/rig... At least in my country... But in other countries... I can't say the same is true.

They basically seal them with concrete but that will only last for so long.

In any case, it will poison the land around it and make the ground infertile until God knows when...

A friend of mine works for a decommissioning company.

 

[DarkRange55]

It's the freeze / thaw that always catches people out (whether that be pipeline design engineers or general social interactions in everyday life )

I suspect it's actually going to be a bit of an issue on existing infrastructure in permafrost areas, depending on how global warming affects this cycling.

The pipelines in deserts move too, but this time due to thermal expansion.

I have to say, I wasn't expecting this conversation on SaSu tonight!

More expansion examples

Most high rises do back to back plumbing to save on pipes, one riser for each set of two rooms (think apartment, condo, hotel, ect). Main risers have springs (rubber bushing mount) wear out and pipes shift (250ft of tower and up), on the bottom and top and split in the middle so it can flex and move with temperature exchange. Copper expands a lot (but steel not as much) 64 up to 120 temperature shifts they take that into account with plumbing some kind of moving and expansion. Pipe narrows as it gets closer to the top because it doesn't need to have as much flow (less rooms) horizontally same with sprinkler pipes fewer heads hooked. Copper for potable water because Steel rusts but even galvanized breaks down but now they're going to PEX. Plastic is still mostly residential. Fire hazard, really nasty fumes. Copper and black iron don't burn and not string enough for a high rise (pressure). Schedule 80 plastic heavier wall plastic rated for 250 psi. Copper is rated M, L & C levels of copper. Schedule 40 normal residential. Black iron pipe was used for drainage pipe but it would clog up. Drain waste vent and drain pipes are now even copper. Sprinkler pipes are black iron so it's always a pretty constant cold temperature not much flex. There's no air - either wet or dry system. Steel with additives that don't rust at all now (chemical process for maritime steel) vs iron back in the day. Hot dip cars now stamp out whole body and dump it into a big chemical bath to make it rust resistant. Hot dip old engines to clean them, too. Electrolysis so metal doesn't rust thats also how they chrome plate. Electrolysis uses an electric current to drive a non-spontaneous chemical reaction, splitting compounds into their elements or new substances by moving ions to electrodes.

Back pitch - drainage has to be flowing downhill all the time otherwise you get a trap, 8th of an inch of pitch for every foot of drainage. You don't want too much pitch like sewer pipes its solids and liquids and you want them to flow together instead of the solids staying behind and clogging the pipe so you don't do a 45 degree angle. Sewers utilize gravity (and pumps eventually or up hills).

I always remember this one building as an example…
(I can provide images, might be helpful in illustrating)
The tubs had metal covers with a gasket then a flange and were screwed together. But the four plumbing inspector to look at them didn't like it. So he had them (lead) solder the copper pipe instead of having a slip nut.
Slip joint connections (rubber o ring with nut) for tub drip were changed to hard copper and leas soldered together so its over ridged with no flexibility and so the rubber goes bad after 10 years.
Cut out trough for drain in concrete floor for drain, soldered together instead of compression. Cast iron pipe gods through the floor then adapts to copper. Concrete can have a corrosive effect on copper because of the alkaline nature of concrete.
So because it's so rigid and not flexible anymore they couldn't get a good seal, so they had to use silicone. Rotted out old rubber grommet in the concrete that connects tun drain to main drain behind wall next to toilet, if it clogs it backs then the pressure builds up under the gasket and under the tub through the concrete. The water backs up into the trough and into the bedroom.

 

[DarkRange55]

The heat generated from moving oil helps keep it flowing. The oil in Alaska is lot less viscus than the stuff in Siberia that they need to start getting it flowing underground. Heavier hydrocarbons (asphalt, paraffin) vs lighter hydrocarbons.

Yes, pipes will have different codes and types/design because some places for example are more seismically active.
A lot of municipal pipes are ductile iron sprayed with concrete then sprayed with asphalt. Some use C900 ("blue pipes") or HDPE then fusion weld it. But ductile iron is still like the standard.

HDPE pipe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fusion welding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What is C900 pipe? What about C905 pipe? - Indigo Piping Systems

C900 is the AWWA standard for cast-iron-pipe-equivalent outside diameter polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pressure pipe and fabricated fittings for potable water transmission and distribution, covering nominal pipe sizes from 4 inches through 12 inches. The standard covers three classes of pressure …...

www.indigopiping.com

Google: C900

In American commercial buildings, basically everything has to have a back flow preventer. So you have a check valve then a diaphragm then another check valve. They work on pressure differential. A big pressure differential in a back-flow preventer is like a couple PSI, not something you would notice in a shower. Buildings like apartments and hotels have so much constant pressure change because of the volume and movement so you need to install additional check valves a lot of times.
Loop around piping is better for irrigation, it gives more even pressure at all heads. But not good in residential. You can get stagnant lines.
You have one sink running and one not.
From a health perspective you don't want any more than 4 inches of stagnant water.

Backflow prevention device - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hospitals still use steam heating, they have it for sterilization of equipment so they have their own steam plants. There is a big state campus I know of that also has its own steam plant because of the topography of the sprawling campus. Steam can go up and down and around and hyrdronics can too but you have to bleed the air out.
Old cities like parts of Chicago, parts around Boston, some old buildings still in Seattle still use steam. But it's so expensive to maintain because if you get a rupture it spreads and eats away at the pipe so quick. You have to have really good maintenance and be on top of it all the time.

Hydronics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org