GoodPersonEffed
Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
- Jan 11, 2020
- 6,727
I am ambivalent about writing this.
On the one hand, I'm a communicative extrovert. I work things out best by both writing and engaging in conversation. So I'm writing all this out because I need to, and if it's too much for others to read, well, it's part of the conversation, they don't have to join it. This thread's my party, not everyone has to accept the invitation. (Yes, I'm a little defensive. I'm vulnerable and scared. Vulnerability can reap great rewards, but sometimes it's also a bit of a shit magnet.) I recognize there are some walls of text here, that not everyone can engage with this. This party starts like a personal journal entry, not like something I'd have honed and edited for publication. It's quite a personal party, not to everyone's taste or liking.
On the other hand, this is stuff that's really triggering for me (which contributes to the word vomit, I can't approach this succinctly or directly, and fuck it, they're probably some of my last words anyway, so I'll do this how it's best for me). I avoid conversations on the forum about this topic and sub-topics. I also know that I am likely to be triggered by certain responses, and will have to wade through the minefields and their impacts in order to receive what I need and therefore reach what I want to achieve, which is to work this out for myself through interaction with others.
To this point in my journey, I have worked through to my satisfaction everything about why I'll choose to suicide, all the logistics, how others will be impacted, and what is and is not within my control.
It is what comes after that frightens me. I don't know what I'm walking into, and almost none of it is desirable, except for what I hope for and do not rationally believe is possible (see 4). It is my rational choice to exit the party of life, it's a party gone bad for me, and I have no control over that, I can only control whether to stay or leave. It's best to leave. But once I leave the party, to where or what am I exiting?
These are the options I believe I may face and that I am grappling with. If there are other options, I've either rejected them or, fuck, I don't want to know. This is enough:
1. Non-existence
I like who I am and am rather attached to that. Who I am cannot keep going in this party, and I cannot be anyone else, nor become something I detest in order to emotionally survive, that would be a different kind of suicide. Not existing is, so far, beyond my ability to comprehend and not fear. I think of all who have died before me, and they no longer exist, but I experience that from outside of them, as an observer. What is it like for them to no longer exist? I get that I likely did not exist before I was born, but I was born, I do exist, I have no knowledge of anything other than existing. It is not a return to a previous state, because non-existence is not a state. I cannot yet comprehend not existing from any perspective I've so far tried -- viewing it externally or internally -- so what perspective would help me to comprehend it? I know that if I no longer exist, I will not fret, I will feel neither pleasure nor fear, I will not think; there will be no living nervous system to experience or engage with anything. Are there any philosophers who have satisfactorily addressed this?
2. Rebirth
It is the least scary option. I can see how attachment to existing leads to a continuing cycle of suffering. I don't know if Buddhists and other Indian/Eastern cosmologies have it right, but rebirth is at least a concept I can contain and understand. It would be going into another party, as a new being with a new nervous system, developing from new experiences, and dealing with all the good and awful of life again, and suffering is indeed an inherent part of life. It could be a worse party I go to, it could be a better one, or the same. But even if I am comfortable with this, that does not mean it is true, only that I can accept, comprehend, and work with this possibility.
3. That I will exit one simulation only to enter another and continue to be powerlessly manipulated for someone else's purpose (or enter "reality," which, if I am in a simulation, I have no way of knowing anything about)
This is the controversial one that fucks me up, that I will find triggering if anyone addresses it, I dread having it (and me) negated, rather than intelligently and/or compassionately engaged with, I dread someone definitively insisting that it is for certain, and I dread engaging with it. If this is a simulation, I exist elsewhere, though in what form and state I do not know. I may exist in multiple simulations. I may, as this manifestation of whoever or whatever I am, stop existing (see 1) and never be aware of the rest of myself, as good as dead. I may join with another manifestation of myself and have no power, only to impotently observe and experience. I may end up in a manufactured hell or heaven (see 4, but a cruel mind fuck), continue to be unaware of what is behind it and what is the agenda. I may experience simulated rebirth(s) (see 2, but a cruel mind fuck). No matter the result, I am powerless, I have no agency, the truth is kept from me without my having any way to get to it, and it could potentially never end, just keep expanding and contracting, beginning and ending, perpetually cycling, or in some way, never end at all. Eternity is terrifying to me, I cannot conceive it. This whole concept of simulations is terrifying to me, and I consider it plausible. If you disagree it's plausible but would like to engage in the thread, perhaps engage with what you do find plausible; that would be the most helpful.
4. The realm of a benevolent higher power
Buddhism believes that there are many realms that support many conditions, such as form, formless, neither-form-nor-formless, etc. They can be hell realms, heaven realms, earth, and all sorts of other realms which are on the spectrum between desirable and conducive to advancement toward Nirvana, and utterly miserable and with limited potential to experience advancement until it's over. At the least, all conditions pass, though some may take eons. It's all a bit of a psychedelic mind fuck to me. I grasp enough of it and then have to let it go. But if there are heavens, they are supposed to be more conducive to continuing one's development if Nirvana is in fact the best and ultimate goal, if it even exists beyond a purely mental construct achieved through, say, meditation, or drugs, or a break. Kind of like the concept of eternity, I can't grasp it, however, I can grasp the concept of a path to Nirvana, and that the concept itself is a mind trip. There is a branch of Buddhism that believes if one calls on the name of the Buddha Amitbha, they will have rebirth into his Buddha field, where the dharma is taught 24/7 and everyone's happy and developing, on their way to final liberation from suffering. I like the final liberation part, and truth, and support, and being safe. It's better than here. It's probably not real, but I can't definitively know that more than anything else I'm struggling with. Or maybe, though I've seen no evidence of this, there is a higher power that is loving, compassionate, isn't abusive, gives a fuck, and will take whatever is "me" when I leave and help me heal from life, help me integrate and comprehend these fucked-up experiences of life and humanity. I can't remember which philosopher(s) said this, but basically, if one believes in god and is wrong, they lose nothing, and if they are right, they gain everything. So perhaps I'll hedge my bets on the way out, call on Amitabha, call on the god-being I would like to exist, and in my final moments, take comfort from these hopes and goals, even if they're not real.
In summary, I have the means, the reasons, and the strength to exit the party. As Seneca the Stoic advises, I am able to die virtuously, sensibly, and courageously. I am able to look back at my life and be satisfied with what I've accomplished with myself, and that I do not, as he would say, owe the universe a debt for my life but am (hopefully) in credit. What I do not yet have is the strength or ability to face whatever comes after. I can exit the party, but I don't know what the fuck is on the other side of the door, and I am scared. Yet I need to leave, it is my wisest choice, once I have what I need to face the other side of the exit. If I push myself to move forward without having worked through this final issue, I am not rationally exiting, I am fleeing, and without some kind of foundation or tools for facing what comes next, it would be like running out of a burning building and straight off of a cliff that never ends, or leads to crashing again and again, or, perhaps at best, to the non-existence I fear, if I am not lifted to a higher, truly safe place, which I think is just a nice dream but not reasonable to expect, only to hope for without clinging or too much focus since there's other shit to deal with.
Thanks for reading. Welcome to the conversation if you want to join. Please be conscientious that I am feeling vulnerable.
On the one hand, I'm a communicative extrovert. I work things out best by both writing and engaging in conversation. So I'm writing all this out because I need to, and if it's too much for others to read, well, it's part of the conversation, they don't have to join it. This thread's my party, not everyone has to accept the invitation. (Yes, I'm a little defensive. I'm vulnerable and scared. Vulnerability can reap great rewards, but sometimes it's also a bit of a shit magnet.) I recognize there are some walls of text here, that not everyone can engage with this. This party starts like a personal journal entry, not like something I'd have honed and edited for publication. It's quite a personal party, not to everyone's taste or liking.
On the other hand, this is stuff that's really triggering for me (which contributes to the word vomit, I can't approach this succinctly or directly, and fuck it, they're probably some of my last words anyway, so I'll do this how it's best for me). I avoid conversations on the forum about this topic and sub-topics. I also know that I am likely to be triggered by certain responses, and will have to wade through the minefields and their impacts in order to receive what I need and therefore reach what I want to achieve, which is to work this out for myself through interaction with others.
To this point in my journey, I have worked through to my satisfaction everything about why I'll choose to suicide, all the logistics, how others will be impacted, and what is and is not within my control.
It is what comes after that frightens me. I don't know what I'm walking into, and almost none of it is desirable, except for what I hope for and do not rationally believe is possible (see 4). It is my rational choice to exit the party of life, it's a party gone bad for me, and I have no control over that, I can only control whether to stay or leave. It's best to leave. But once I leave the party, to where or what am I exiting?
These are the options I believe I may face and that I am grappling with. If there are other options, I've either rejected them or, fuck, I don't want to know. This is enough:
1. Non-existence
I like who I am and am rather attached to that. Who I am cannot keep going in this party, and I cannot be anyone else, nor become something I detest in order to emotionally survive, that would be a different kind of suicide. Not existing is, so far, beyond my ability to comprehend and not fear. I think of all who have died before me, and they no longer exist, but I experience that from outside of them, as an observer. What is it like for them to no longer exist? I get that I likely did not exist before I was born, but I was born, I do exist, I have no knowledge of anything other than existing. It is not a return to a previous state, because non-existence is not a state. I cannot yet comprehend not existing from any perspective I've so far tried -- viewing it externally or internally -- so what perspective would help me to comprehend it? I know that if I no longer exist, I will not fret, I will feel neither pleasure nor fear, I will not think; there will be no living nervous system to experience or engage with anything. Are there any philosophers who have satisfactorily addressed this?
2. Rebirth
It is the least scary option. I can see how attachment to existing leads to a continuing cycle of suffering. I don't know if Buddhists and other Indian/Eastern cosmologies have it right, but rebirth is at least a concept I can contain and understand. It would be going into another party, as a new being with a new nervous system, developing from new experiences, and dealing with all the good and awful of life again, and suffering is indeed an inherent part of life. It could be a worse party I go to, it could be a better one, or the same. But even if I am comfortable with this, that does not mean it is true, only that I can accept, comprehend, and work with this possibility.
3. That I will exit one simulation only to enter another and continue to be powerlessly manipulated for someone else's purpose (or enter "reality," which, if I am in a simulation, I have no way of knowing anything about)
This is the controversial one that fucks me up, that I will find triggering if anyone addresses it, I dread having it (and me) negated, rather than intelligently and/or compassionately engaged with, I dread someone definitively insisting that it is for certain, and I dread engaging with it. If this is a simulation, I exist elsewhere, though in what form and state I do not know. I may exist in multiple simulations. I may, as this manifestation of whoever or whatever I am, stop existing (see 1) and never be aware of the rest of myself, as good as dead. I may join with another manifestation of myself and have no power, only to impotently observe and experience. I may end up in a manufactured hell or heaven (see 4, but a cruel mind fuck), continue to be unaware of what is behind it and what is the agenda. I may experience simulated rebirth(s) (see 2, but a cruel mind fuck). No matter the result, I am powerless, I have no agency, the truth is kept from me without my having any way to get to it, and it could potentially never end, just keep expanding and contracting, beginning and ending, perpetually cycling, or in some way, never end at all. Eternity is terrifying to me, I cannot conceive it. This whole concept of simulations is terrifying to me, and I consider it plausible. If you disagree it's plausible but would like to engage in the thread, perhaps engage with what you do find plausible; that would be the most helpful.
4. The realm of a benevolent higher power
Buddhism believes that there are many realms that support many conditions, such as form, formless, neither-form-nor-formless, etc. They can be hell realms, heaven realms, earth, and all sorts of other realms which are on the spectrum between desirable and conducive to advancement toward Nirvana, and utterly miserable and with limited potential to experience advancement until it's over. At the least, all conditions pass, though some may take eons. It's all a bit of a psychedelic mind fuck to me. I grasp enough of it and then have to let it go. But if there are heavens, they are supposed to be more conducive to continuing one's development if Nirvana is in fact the best and ultimate goal, if it even exists beyond a purely mental construct achieved through, say, meditation, or drugs, or a break. Kind of like the concept of eternity, I can't grasp it, however, I can grasp the concept of a path to Nirvana, and that the concept itself is a mind trip. There is a branch of Buddhism that believes if one calls on the name of the Buddha Amitbha, they will have rebirth into his Buddha field, where the dharma is taught 24/7 and everyone's happy and developing, on their way to final liberation from suffering. I like the final liberation part, and truth, and support, and being safe. It's better than here. It's probably not real, but I can't definitively know that more than anything else I'm struggling with. Or maybe, though I've seen no evidence of this, there is a higher power that is loving, compassionate, isn't abusive, gives a fuck, and will take whatever is "me" when I leave and help me heal from life, help me integrate and comprehend these fucked-up experiences of life and humanity. I can't remember which philosopher(s) said this, but basically, if one believes in god and is wrong, they lose nothing, and if they are right, they gain everything. So perhaps I'll hedge my bets on the way out, call on Amitabha, call on the god-being I would like to exist, and in my final moments, take comfort from these hopes and goals, even if they're not real.
In summary, I have the means, the reasons, and the strength to exit the party. As Seneca the Stoic advises, I am able to die virtuously, sensibly, and courageously. I am able to look back at my life and be satisfied with what I've accomplished with myself, and that I do not, as he would say, owe the universe a debt for my life but am (hopefully) in credit. What I do not yet have is the strength or ability to face whatever comes after. I can exit the party, but I don't know what the fuck is on the other side of the door, and I am scared. Yet I need to leave, it is my wisest choice, once I have what I need to face the other side of the exit. If I push myself to move forward without having worked through this final issue, I am not rationally exiting, I am fleeing, and without some kind of foundation or tools for facing what comes next, it would be like running out of a burning building and straight off of a cliff that never ends, or leads to crashing again and again, or, perhaps at best, to the non-existence I fear, if I am not lifted to a higher, truly safe place, which I think is just a nice dream but not reasonable to expect, only to hope for without clinging or too much focus since there's other shit to deal with.
Thanks for reading. Welcome to the conversation if you want to join. Please be conscientious that I am feeling vulnerable.
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