Discussion Most Christians use the Bible to justify their own morality

[TAW122]

Growing up and having attended churches as well as meeting many believers (especially Christians in the US), I have come to the assessment that most (not all) Christians have a set morality and then use the Bible to justify their morals and/or preconceived beliefs. They also do that with societal values too, rather than having the Bible to do that for them. It is also why they cherry pick (which deciding what portions to include when it's convenient and exclude or ignore certain portions when it is inconvenient for them, which is considered intellectual dishonesty.). Thus, in regards to the topic of euthanasia, right to die and freedom of choice, as well as suicide, they decide to cherry pick passages from the Bible to justify that 'suicide is a sin'. Also, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) decreed suicide to be a sin, mainly to keep the masses at the time in check. (After all, most people in power fear an uprising and/or losing their slaves, workers, and what not to keep them in power, keep society going.) Ironically, they also do that to justify other ills (such as slavery - see the book of Exodus in the Old Testament, lust and adultery - in the book of Matthew in the New Testament, and many more) in society.

Also, they choose to ignore various passages that either have a neutral view on death and suicide, or even condones anti-natalism, one of which is the book of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 4, verses 2-3. Those verses basically say that it's better to not be born as one would not have to suffer and that the dead are at peace while the living are suffering. Then there are apologists (Christian defenders) who will go to extreme lengths and all the mental gymnastics to defend a point. In fact, I may even claim that Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus's 12 disciples betrayed Jesus himself for money and then later CTB'd didn't go to hell because he CTB'd, but because he betrayed Jesus and didn't repent for that sin. Of course, some apologists and scholars would try to claim that Judas went to Hell because he CTB'd, which is lazy and inaccurate.

Anyways, here is a quote taken from @ScornedStoic at another place and I actually find it very logical and agree with him (see below):

Virtually all Christians construct their own morality independent from the Bible, and cherrypick what they want from the Bible to meet their own morality. The reason for this is twofold;

1: it's impossible not to. The Bible is so contradictory, sometimes even within the same book, that forming a consistent morality solely from the Bible is actually impossible. No one really are "true Christians". Because of the contradictory and fallacious text that riddle the book, you have to "pick contextually", but that just means picking according to your own feeling of what is right, so we're back to square one.

2: The relationship with God is actually a profound relationship with the self, your ego. You are God. It's why he always agrees with your morality, why you'll go to heaven but God's wrath is just on all the people you disagree with. It's why religious people are personally offended when you challenge their beliefs, because you're challenging them, not God. What you think of as God is simply your own opinions and feelings manifested into a complex separate identity to give you comfort and feelings of security. But there is no God actually dictating edicts, only you.

So in conclusion, I don't think morality is objective, but rather subjective and dependent on the culture, society, and values of a group (or individual). I don't really argue with most religious people anymore (especially the close-minded and hostile ones) because there is no way I can change their views nor are they open enough to acknowledge and understand dissenting views.

 

[Dystopic_Momento]

In the bible Samson died of suicide and God had to give him the strength to do it. Technically Jesus's death was a suicide given that it was voluntary the whole way.

I get the impression there are christians would gladly end it if they didn't think they'd be sent to hell. I noticed there are some christians here though, so they must have found a way to be okay with it?

 

[Epsilon0]

@thrw_a_way1221221

I don't think morality is objective, but rather subjective and dependent on the culture, society, and values of a group.

This is called moral relativism and it is a question that has been discussed for more than two centuries by philosophers. Everyone from Plato to Nietzsche has had something to say about it. Amd now even we on Sanctioned Suicide. We are in fine company, ladies and gentlemen :-)

 

[Heart of Ice]

Most don't use the Bible, but rather the interpretation of the Bible that they are taught in Sunday school (is that what it's called in English?) and in church.

@thrw_a_way1221221

I don't think morality is objective, but rather subjective and dependent on the culture, society, and values of a group.

This is called moral relativism and it is a question that has been discussed for more than two centuries by philosophers. Everyone from Plato to Nietzsche has had something to say about it. Amd now even we on Sanctioned Suicide. We are in fine company, ladies and gentlemen :-)

On Sanctioned Suicide, everyone is a philosopher and a qualified chemist. Especially OP. :)

And here's my take on religion, although no one asked for it:

Spoiler: Prepare to be offended

While religions are certainly fallacious at times and basing any kind of morality on a book that is not only thousands of years old, but also from different authors whose texts have probably seen some alterations, is a bad idea that will lead to cherry-picking the best parts, religion is extremely important because without it society will start to break down.

 

[TAW122]

@Dystopic_Momento Yes, that's another good example, Samson's story of where God gave him the strength to CTB and also take out his enemies (or rather God's enemies, depending on how you interpret it). As for Jesus' death, yes, logically speaking, I would classify it as a suicide because he knew he was going to die and still went with it willingly with the intention of dying (and resurrecting later on). The irony is that there are Christians would claim that it isn't suicide, because it was a sacrifice and/or that because he came back to life later on it's not classified as such.

As far as whether Christians may be more inclined to end it if the fear of Hell isn't around, I'd predict yes there would be more, but maybe not much more because deeply religious people usually have more hope than less religious people so there are a fair amount of people who would end it without the fear of Hell. For those that would, they would probably have a slightly different interpretation of Hell. I know of one such person IRL who claimed that Hell is not eternal, but after some time, someone could still end up in heaven, but I digress.

@Epsilon0 Ah, good point and thanks for pointing out the term. As for the morals, yes I believe it is still going to be an ongoing discussion with philosophers (even long after we are gone) as there are no right or wrong answers (despite what some religious people try to claim, that morality is objective - which is no different than them trying to impose their will on others because they think might is right and because they feel they can, but that's another topic altogether).

@Heart of Ice No worries, you didn't offend me at all. It actually makes sense especially in the ancient times before science and critical thinking came about. Religion offered answers to things that humans could not comprehend.

 

[Epsilon0]

@Epsilon0 Ah, good point and thanks for pointing out the term. As for the morals, yes I believe it is still going to be an ongoing discussion with philosophers (even long after we are gone) as there are no right or wrong answers (despite what some religious people try to claim, that morality is objective - which is no different than them trying to impose their will on others because they think might is right and because they feel they can, but that's another topic altogether).

@Heart of Ice No worries, you didn't offend me at all. It actually makes sense especially in the ancient times before science and critical thinking came about. Religion offered answers to things that humans could not comprehend.

I should also point out that I wrote centuries instead of millenia. So, don't believe everything I say :-)

 

[TAW122]

@Epsilon0 Ah, semantics, but I do get your meaning though. Yes, lots of philosophers debate about life and death over a long period of time. Either way, I don't see there ever being an "objective" answer since morality is relative and subjective (even to this day). We just happen to live in a society that is suicide-prohibitionist, anti-choice of the freedom and choice to CTB, and such. Also, we are headed towards a dark future with more surveillance and Orwellian dystopias, it can get rather scary of how morality will shift, especially if it goes in the oppressive direction.

 

[Heart of Ice]

critical thinking came about

So you're saying critical thinking is something that was invented? I don't disagree with you, I'm just a bit curious about what you mean by this.

 

[TAW122]

So you're saying critical thinking is something that was invented? I don't disagree with you, I'm just a bit curious about what you mean by this.

Maybe 'invented' might not be the right word, but rather discovered through a process of reasoning, asking questions, and thinking deeply about something complex. I don't really know for sure though...

 

[ScornedStoic]

Wow. I'm flattered!

 

[TrailerTrash]

Yeah, lots of deep thoughts here. I'm afraid I'm just going to have to sort it out with God when we meet soon. No disrespect to those with strong beliefs and/or feelings about the topics in this thread.

 

[TAW122]

I suppose another example of Christians (again not all, but specific ones) using the Bible to justify their morality and imposition onto others (sometimes dictating what should/shouldn't be done) is regarding procreation. Some of them take inspiration from Genesis Chapter 1, verse 28, which states "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it." So in that sense, it is saying for humans to be pro-natalists, meaning to bringing in new life into the world. These Christians in particular also twist such verses to even include being pro-life and supporting life regardless of the circumstances (which I heavily object to).

As someone who is an anti-natalist, I'm against this verse as I don't believe in bringing in additional life to this shitty world with all the things going on and also the conceived never consented to birth.

@TrailerTrash I'd probably do the same too (assuming that my prediction about there being nothing but just a void is false).

 

[LittleJem]

The world is very very overpopulated. When being fruitful and multiplying becomes overrunning...

This is somewhat related to religion and morality, and it is my very favourite news item that I saw this week. While the tone of the article is disparaging, I say priests, "you do you."

High-ranking priest caught in cocaine-fueled gay orgy in Vatican apartment - LifeSite

'The Vatican is now ground zero for a mass apostasy that is happening right now within the Catholic Church.'

www.lifesitenews.com

 

[Dystopic_Momento]

@Dystopic_Momento Yes, that's another good example, Samson's story of where God gave him the strength to CTB and also take out his enemies (or rather God's enemies, depending on how you interpret it). As for Jesus' death, yes, logically speaking, I would classify it as a suicide because he knew he was going to die and still went with it willingly with the intention of dying (and resurrecting later on). The irony is that there are Christians would claim that it isn't suicide, because it was a sacrifice and/or that because he came back to life later on it's not classified as such.

As far as whether Christians may be more inclined to end it if the fear of Hell isn't around, I'd predict yes there would be more, but maybe not much more because deeply religious people usually have more hope than less religious people so there are a fair amount of people who would end it without the fear of Hell. For those that would, they would probably have a slightly different interpretation of Hell. I know of one such person IRL who claimed that Hell is not eternal, but after some time, someone could still end up in heaven, but I digress.

There really are a lot of variations, eh? I knew some 7th Day Adventists who said eternally burning only meant "sinners" burned and then were gone eternally, not in the process of burning eternally.

If we all lived eternally in an afterlife, I'd think that wouldn't be so different than coming back to life 3 days after a suicide. But I get it. How can we populate the earth and subdue it if we're not on it?

Ha!

 

[TrailerTrash]

The world is very very overpopulated. When being fruitful and multiplying becomes overrunning...

This is somewhat related to religion and morality, and it is my very favourite news item that I saw this week. While the tone of the article is disparaging, I say priests, "you do you."

High-ranking priest caught in cocaine-fueled gay orgy in Vatican apartment - LifeSite

'The Vatican is now ground zero for a mass apostasy that is happening right now within the Catholic Church.'

www.lifesitenews.com

I guess sometimes a guy needs to putt from the rough ..... no judgement, but if you're a priest be priest .... it's a bit like a car salesman selling a nice Volvo to someone but after receiving payment delivering a Huffy bicycle instead.