Taran

Taran

Am I alive?
Mar 11, 2020
121
I have decided to ctb and I feel good about it as I'm gonna end this misery....but I'm having this constant lucid dreams which are making me think of the good situations I could have been if I would have done something perfect...but in reality I know I couldn't do it...it actually makes me feel good but I know what's the reality and i come back from it feeling more like a losser ...does anybody also face this situation?
 
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faust

faust

lost among the stars
Jan 26, 2020
3,138
Hello once again, @Taran
I practically do not see any dreams, but I experienced lucid dreams several times.
I think dreams might help me see something else than an unreal world seen through the lens of anhedonia.
If there is something good in my dreams, I instantly realize that is a dream. Long ago I even used to make some mess in my dreams.
But now when I go to bed, I just fall asleep and see the same picture every day when I wake up.
Once I even won online lottery in my dreams! It consisted of 2 parts somehow. All 16 numbers from the first part were covered and then... My father took the phone (I used to live without my phone months long) and I was so annoyed that I wanted to fight my father and kick his ass ahah.
Also I had some dreams which predicted the future. All of them were bad though.
 
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TheGoodGuy

TheGoodGuy

Visionary
Aug 27, 2018
2,999
Yup, I was going to make a thread named "In my dreams I live in reality I just exist. There doesn´t even have to happen anything extreme one of the last ones were just me hanging out with some past friends but of course other dreams are simply amazing and very exciting the point is it´s only within my dreams I can live even something as simple as having a good time with friends I used to have because there are no bounderies like the physical and mental problems there are in real life then I wake up; It reminds me of the scene from the episode in South Park where Cartman dreams about seapeople "yay I´m a somebody I´m a somebody" then he wakes up "ooh I´m a nobody"
 
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Taran

Taran

Am I alive?
Mar 11, 2020
121
Yup, I was going to make a thread named "In my dreams I live in reality I just exist. There doesn´t even have to happen anything extreme one of the last ones were just me hanging out with some past friends but of course other dreams are simply amazing and very exciting the point is it´s only within my dreams I can live even something as simple as having a good time with friends I used to have because there are no bounderies like the physical and mental problems there are in real life then I wake up; It reminds me of the scene from the episode in South Park where Cartman dreams about seapeople "yay I´m a somebody I´m a somebody" then he wakes up "ooh I´m a nobody"
wow...that's a good quote.. feeling like nobody all the time
 
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Whale_bones

Whale_bones

Experienced
Feb 11, 2020
269
Yes, pleasant dreams are so heartbreaking, there's nothing quite as vivid to remind oneself how cruel reality is.
 
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Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
I've wanted to wake up in 2004 for the past ten years. I even went on an astral projection course in an attempt to leave my body, travel back in time, re-enter my younger body and make a different decision hence changing the present so I never would have been on an astral projection course. The old time travel paradox. I was so desperate but he never gave me a straight answer, all very wishy washy. "Could you go to my house and tell me what posters I've got on my wall?" " If I wanted to yes " Who knows if any of it's ' real' not him I doubt. We'll find out one day.
 
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BridgeJumper

BridgeJumper

The Arsonist
Apr 7, 2019
1,194
Youre so lucky. I only dream about being raped, stabbed, drowned or burned alive.
The hell even.
Guess I need to get used to 3 extra strenght coffees a day :')
 
Taran

Taran

Am I alive?
Mar 11, 2020
121
It's sad that your having these kind of thoghts..power to you..I wish you come out of it
 
Yomyom

Yomyom

Darker dearie, much darker
Feb 5, 2020
923
I never had a lucid dream in my life although I really wanted to, but my brain use always to create different reality in my head, it's like I living a life that I'm not ne, I spent hours and days and after that months to imagine that, and the understanding that this is not going to be real devastat me
 
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terry_a_davis

terry_a_davis

Warlock
Dec 28, 2019
707
I regularly dream about an ex and i wish i didn't, i did so last night again, and somehow i starting dreaming saying to myself "this is all in my head again" and i woke myself up
 
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P

PainfulGut

Member
Mar 1, 2020
19
I lucid dream often. It is the only time I am ever happy, for some reason I can feel in my dreams when I can't in reality. There is no pain or hunger or other bodily limitations in dreams, only the discovering of limitless imagination. That is all I wanted out of life - to explore. And my dreams are more interesting than the real world would ever be. They lack the realness, but that is a positive as well as a negative.

In my dreams I can fly, I can see a place and just go to it, I can control them so they almost never get too scary, I can spend the entire time just travelling from place to place and seeing what my brain will come up with, I can experience things I never would be able to in reality like luxuries, impossible feats, and emotions I don't think exist in the real world.

I truly wish I could dream forever. I belong more in that world than I do in this one.
 
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Giraffey

Giraffey

Your Orange Crush
Mar 7, 2020
439
I regularly lucid dream and before bed I will usually schedule what dream I want to have. It takes a lot of practice to get to that point.

The best usage I've found for lucid dreaming is to stop the horrible nightmares I used to get. Whenever I entered a nightmare, I could just 'wake up' and either consciously end the dream, or with more practice I could change the scene in a symbolic way.

Chase dreams were the worst, but I learned to stop running, turn around and face whatever was chasing me and either talk to them (like talking to your subconscious, very revealing), or give myself superpowers to make whatever bad thing was attacking me ridiculously useless - turning a knife into a banana, legs into giant balloons I could pop etc.

It's been far better for me than any therapy ever has and it's quite easy once you get the hang of the techniques.
 
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jimbob1000

jimbob1000

Student
Feb 21, 2020
133
i love my dreams, i'm always happy and enjoying things, then i wake up and its a living hell again.
 
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DeathNoot

DeathNoot

Student
Feb 19, 2020
137
In my dreams I live my life without my personality disorder, its amazing. And then I wake up :)
 
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Taran

Taran

Am I alive?
Mar 11, 2020
121
In my dreams I live my life without my personality disorder, its amazing. And then I wake up :)
Yeah even I live my life without my personality disorder in dreams..it's so good
 
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Eridanos

Eridanos

Confused
Feb 24, 2020
51
I've wanted to wake up in 2004 for the past ten years. I even went on an astral projection course in an attempt to leave my body, travel back in time, re-enter my younger body and make a different decision hence changing the present so I never would have been on an astral projection course. The old time travel paradox. I was so desperate but he never gave me a straight answer, all very wishy washy. "Could you go to my house and tell me what posters I've got on my wall?" " If I wanted to yes " Who knows if any of it's ' real' not him I doubt. We'll find out one day.
Could elaborate more on what exactly was that astral projection course?
 
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
^ It was called Journey of truth.
 
akrasia

akrasia

-hugs-
Feb 11, 2020
153
I barely have lucid dreams or I just don't remember them. My lucid dreams isn't that great, I don't think I had one good lucid dream.
One lucid dream that I remember was about dinosaurs. Basically what happen was there was a dinosaur apocalypse and dinosaurs magically appears and took over the world. My family was rushing to leave the city and it was terrifying. I remember talking to my cousin in the car and telling her that this is a dream and to wake up. I eventually woke up. I think another lucid dream I had was about zombies. Yea, my dreams are quite bizarre
 
262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
Fuck yeah! I love dreaming!
There is no pain or hunger or other bodily limitations in dreams, only the discovering of limitless imagination.
So. Much. This.
I tried to stand on my arms in a lucid dream a few days ago, it was amazing. Fly through walls, call lightning, perform stunts, have sexual experience... Once I jumped from a 7th floor and landed on my feet (without a scratch, needless to say). The kind of world I'd like to visit more often. Even the worst nightmares I usually find more preferable to reality. Once I was running away from a bunch of vampires while protecting myself with a spell ward, like in Skyrim. I was exploring some industrial area on a buggy from Half-Life 2. I'm pretty sure almost anything ever concieved and memorized from this reality and some virtual ones, like in videogames, can be replicated in a dream world. Getting mauled by a giant tiger, removed from the face of the Earth by the heat wave from the nuclear strike, preying on the hapless folk as the Hunter from Left 4 Dead. I think it was all worth experiencing and I'm eager for more.
 
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Giraffey

Giraffey

Your Orange Crush
Mar 7, 2020
439
I'm pretty sure almost anything ever concieved and memorized from this reality and some virtual ones, like in videogames, can be replicated in a dream world.

Except for turning lights on and off, I've been lucid dreaming on almost a daily basis for about five years now and still haven't mastered the art of changing the level of brightness in the dream scene.

Or reading... The part of your brain that deals with words and numbers switches off when you're asleep (reason the wristwatch induction works). That can be really annoying when you're dreaming to solve a problem and the solution appears on a bit of paper and you can't fucking read it

I usually summon a dream character to read it for me, although depending on how mischievous my subconscious is feeling sometimes they just tear it up instead...

Brains are weird.
 
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262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
Except for turning lights on and off, I've been lucid dreaming on almost a daily basis for about five years now and still haven't mastered the art of changing the level of brightness in the dream scene.

Or reading... The part of your brain that deals with words and numbers switches off when you're asleep (reason the wristwatch induction works). That can be really annoying when you're dreaming to solve a problem and the solution appears on a bit of paper and you can't fucking read it

I usually summon a dream character to read it for me, although depending on how mischievous my subconscious is feeling sometimes they just tear it up instead...

Brains are weird.

Huh interesting, never tried lights before. The ambient lightning really feels strange now that you mentioned it. As if the shadow quality is set to very low, or turned off entirely. But I swear I was trying to read something in the past... the text felt quite profound and enlightening, but it was like trying to catch the water with a sieve, and I could only recall but a few words.

Are there any simple (relatively) and effective advices or techniques you could share? I once read on reddit about one particular reality check, look at your own nose and if you don't see it, then you're dreaming. And I guess that wasn't a lie... In my recent lucid dream I saw my nose. It was transparent, like if you would look at your nose with both eyes open.
 
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Giraffey

Giraffey

Your Orange Crush
Mar 7, 2020
439
Huh interesting, never tried lights before. The ambient lightning really feels strange now that you mentioned it. As if the shadow quality is set to very low, or turned off entirely. But I swear I was trying to read something in the past... the text felt quite profound and enlightening, but it was like trying to catch the water with a sieve, and I could only recall but a few words.

Are there any simple (relatively) and effective advices or techniques you could share? I once read on reddit about one particular reality check, look at your own nose and if you don't see it, then you're dreaming. And I guess that wasn't a lie... In my recent lucid dream I saw my nose. It was transparent, like if you would look at your nose with both eyes open.

I've had some very vivid lucid dreams where there have been distinct shadows, but maybe that's because I pay attention to them all the time in real life (I'm a lighting person for TV/film). Mostly though it's like you say, very abstract, soft lighting. Interestingly now you mention it, I find it easier to dream of overcast weather than bright sunshine, but I wonder if that's just me.

Same here, sometimes it's almost as if I "know" what the text says but if I focus in and try to read it normally it ends up garbled.

I started off with the wristwatch technique. If you wear a watch then several times a day (randomly, whenever it pops into your mind) stop and ask yourself "am I dreaming or am I awake?" Look at your watch and pay attention to the hands, is the time constant or are the hands jumping around?

If they're jumping around you know you're dreaming, if they're moving normally, casually note to yourself "I'm awake" and carry on as normal. After a while of doing it, you'll randomly start to do it in your dreams and the moment you 'realise' the watch doesn't look normal you'll gain control of the dream. Try to control your emotions, strong emotions can make the dream difficult to control and you'll lose focus and slip back into 'movie mode'.

Another technique I use is to take a moment every so often and look at my surroundings, I ask myself if anything is out of the ordinary. Familiar surroundings are never quite 'life-like' in a dream, it may be that parked cars are stacked on top of one another, or a door that's in a different place, or even a staircase in your house that you don't ever remember being there yesterday... I often combine this with another test so I don't accidentally think I'm dreaming when I'm really awake.

Similar to pinching your nose, you can also pinch your wrist. I've never done this one myself but in waking life it hurts and in a dream it doesn't. So if you do it a couple of times and it doesn't hurt you should snap into consciousness in a dream.

It also really helps to keep a dream diary. You won't remember much about your dreams to begin with lucid or otherwise, but the more you write the more dreams you'll have and the more opportunities to practice lucid dreaming.

Finally, a really easy but effective trick I used at the beginning is to tell myself " I want to have a lucid dream tonight" and really make myself conscious that when I did dream I was going to be really 'switched on' and aware so that I could become lucid. In new age terminology, you might say you were readying your mind to awaken, but I think it's more that our dreams are composed of the events we've experienced that day (and earlier) and being last thing at night the suggestion gets incorporated and suddenly you remember that you wanted to wake up in your dream.

Practice makes perfect though, it took me ages before I was having them regularly and able to control them, many a lucid dream ended with the world being sucked into a 'spinning vortex' and waking up having what you would describe as an out of body experience - the more you do it the more control you'll develop.

Hope that gives you a few thoughts to get started with :)
 
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262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
I've had some very vivid lucid dreams where there have been distinct shadows, but maybe that's because I pay attention to them all the time in real life (I'm a lighting person for TV/film). Mostly though it's like you say, very abstract, soft lighting. Interestingly now you mention it, I find it easier to dream of overcast weather than bright sunshine, but I wonder if that's just me.

Same here, sometimes it's almost as if I "know" what the text says but if I focus in and try to read it normally it ends up garbled.

I started off with the wristwatch technique. If you wear a watch then several times a day (randomly, whenever it pops into your mind) stop and ask yourself "am I dreaming or am I awake?" Look at your watch and pay attention to the hands, is the time constant or are the hands jumping around?

If they're jumping around you know you're dreaming, if they're moving normally, casually note to yourself "I'm awake" and carry on as normal. After a while of doing it, you'll randomly start to do it in your dreams and the moment you 'realise' the watch doesn't look normal you'll gain control of the dream. Try to control your emotions, strong emotions can make the dream difficult to control and you'll lose focus and slip back into 'movie mode'.

Another technique I use is to take a moment every so often and look at my surroundings, I ask myself if anything is out of the ordinary. Familiar surroundings are never quite 'life-like' in a dream, it may be that parked cars are stacked on top of one another, or a door that's in a different place, or even a staircase in your house that you don't ever remember being there yesterday... I often combine this with another test so I don't accidentally think I'm dreaming when I'm really awake.

Similar to pinching your nose, you can also pinch your wrist. I've never done this one myself but in waking life it hurts and in a dream it doesn't. So if you do it a couple of times and it doesn't hurt you should snap into consciousness in a dream.

It also really helps to keep a dream diary. You won't remember much about your dreams to begin with lucid or otherwise, but the more you write the more dreams you'll have and the more opportunities to practice lucid dreaming.

Finally, a really easy but effective trick I used at the beginning is to tell myself " I want to have a lucid dream tonight" and really make myself conscious that when I did dream I was going to be really 'switched on' and aware so that I could become lucid. In new age terminology, you might say you were readying your mind to awaken, but I think it's more that our dreams are composed of the events we've experienced that day (and earlier) and being last thing at night the suggestion gets incorporated and suddenly you remember that you wanted to wake up in your dream.

Practice makes perfect though, it took me ages before I was having them regularly and able to control them, many a lucid dream ended with the world being sucked into a 'spinning vortex' and waking up having what you would describe as an out of body experience - the more you do it the more control you'll develop.

Hope that gives you a few thoughts to get started with :)

Very informative, thanks. I'm wondering if your vocation is a major contributor to your lucid dream experience. Now I'm paying more attention to the shadows in awake time, and how the shadow change as I'm moving my arm. I wonder how that would look in a dream, I never heard before about using shadows for a reality check.

I had a dream recently with a sunny weather outside. The room I was in was unusually bright, like in a detergent commercial, even in spots untouched by direct sunlight.

Now I have a reason to wear my electronic wristwatch again. I'm eager to see how would it look in a dream world.
 
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Giraffey

Giraffey

Your Orange Crush
Mar 7, 2020
439
Very informative, thanks. I'm wondering if your vocation is a major contributor to your lucid dream experience. Now I'm paying more attention to the shadows in awake time, and how the shadow change as I'm moving my arm. I wonder how that would look in a dream, I never heard before about using shadows for a reality check.

I had a dream recently with a sunny weather outside. The room I was in was unusually bright, like in a detergent commercial, even in spots untouched by direct sunlight.

Now I have a reason to wear my electronic wristwatch again. I'm eager to see how would it look in a dream world.

I'm a firm believer that lucid dreams (and dreams in general) are very much informed from our own perspective and view of the world. If you're a musician and sound is very important to you, I imagine that your dreams will have vibrant soundscapes. For me being visually orientated, I perceive the world through patterns of light and shadow and that reflects in my dreams.

I've never used shadows themselves for a reality check, but one you can really easily do is to randomly find a light switch and flip it on and off a couple of times - don't just look to see if the bulb lights on and off but look for the brightness of the room changing, shadows appearing and disappearing on the walls etc. In a dream it's very difficult to see those changes so if the light level doesn't change with the flip of the switch you're either dreaming or you've got a blown bulb haha.

My experience with an analogue wristwatch is the hands jumping around randomly to show different times, a digital wristwatch to me just showed garbage symbols and shapes instead of actual numbers. But with practice, you'll soon learn to spot the clues your brain leaves you in your dreams.

I love the description of the weather in your dream btw, I've had dreams like that as well - everything seems to glow, although you never feel it in your eyes like you have to squint. You'll have to let me know if you manage to have a lucid dream, they will be very hit and miss at first and probably won't last very long, but stick at it and keep practising.

I should also say, just be aware of some minor side effects that can occur. I suffer sleep paralysis sometimes which feels like the beginning of what people call an out of body experience (astral projection) but for me, it's not a pleasant feeling anymore (this happens more when the air in my bedroom is hot and stuffy). Also, with lucid dreams come the dreaded 'false awakenings' - you'll wake up in your bed and it'll feel absolutely real and you'll be conscious, but secretly you'll still be dreaming. It's like a lucid dream but you don't know it's happening until something weird takes place like you step off the top of the staircase and float to the bottom. I've sometimes had five or six of these in a row where I've snapped back to bed, rinse and repeat until I've finally woken up in reality. If you think it's happening, use a reality check to see if you're awake or dreaming (looking at the time on a bedside clock is an easy test).
 
D

Deleted member 1465

_
Jul 31, 2018
6,914
Dreaming is such a subjective thing. How do we ever understand what or how others dream? For example, people have asked me if I dream in colour or black or white. What an odd question. I simply can't answer that; it has no answer for me. I dream in concepts.
I'm often several people at once in dreams, viewing things from several perspectives, both first person and third person (though third person is much more common). I often fly and I tend to have powers bordering on omnipotence, always being aware of the dream state and how to progress it from one to the next, often with a common thread. Time has little meaning for me in dreams except a realisation that time has passed.

I used to be fascinated by dreams and had a technique of remembering and kept a journal, which was amazing to read back at the end of the day. I had to stop because it was taking too much time - I dreamt so much, that I couldn't keep up.
I've also suffered from sleep paralysis and it was awful. Awake and aware but bound by huge burning silver chains.
These days I sleep so little and dream still but often much worse. I never used to have nightmare, but now they are common.

My most interesting experience with semi-consciousness was when i used to camp out alone in the countryside sans tent. I learned to sleep just below consciousness, deep enough down to stimulate the correct brain wave cycles for restful sleep, but high enough up to be aware of any sounds in the area that were out of place. So small animal noises would be ignored whilst cows or people type noises would bring me awake long enough to asses danger then back to sleep again. I always felt that it was in this liminal hypnogogic zone that the most vivid and lucid dreams occurred.
 
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Giraffey

Giraffey

Your Orange Crush
Mar 7, 2020
439
Dreaming is such a subjective thing. How do we ever understand what or how others dream? For example, people have asked me if I dream in colour or black or white. What an odd question. I simply can't answer that; it has no answer for me. I dream in concepts.
I'm often several people at once in dreams, viewing things from several perspectives, both first person and third person (though third person is much more common). I often fly and I tend to have powers bordering on omnipotence, always being aware of the dream state and how to progress it from one to the next, often with a common thread. Time has little meaning for me in dreams except a realisation that time has passed.

I used to be fascinated by dreams and had a technique of remembering and kept a journal, which was amazing to read back at the end of the day. I had to stop because it was taking too much time - I dreamt so much, that I couldn't keep up.
I've also suffered from sleep paralysis and it was awful. Awake and aware but bound by huge burning silver chains.
These days I sleep so little and dream still but often much worse. I never used to have nightmare, but now they are common.

My most interesting experience with semi-consciousness was when i used to camp out alone in the countryside sans tent. I learned to sleep just below consciousness, deep enough down to stimulate the correct brain wave cycles for restful sleep, but high enough up to be aware of any sounds in the area that were out of place. So small animal noises would be ignored whilst cows or people type noises would bring me awake long enough to asses danger then back to sleep again. I always felt that it was in this liminal hypnogogic zone that the most vivid and lucid dreams occurred.

How fascinating Underscore, thank you for sharing, it was an enlightening and educational read. I dream in colour, and I only know that because whatever perspective I am (first person, or third person 'movie mode' or 'god mode') I can recall visuals and dream scenery of different colours. Sometimes those colours are more 'abstract' than they would appear in real life, a wall is simply 'dark' and only if I focus on it specifically will it assume a colour such as brown or black or some deep shade of green etc.

Have you ever tried to pay attention to colour in your dreams? Perhaps the very act of checking for colour would influence the result - if you did dream in black and white you'd see colours because you were looking for them and if colour existed only in an abstract sense in your dream you may lose that abstractness in translation as I do when I bring those abstract elements into focus. I'm just speculating, but it's a really intriguing description - I bet your dream journal was a gold mine of imagination!

The last paragraph struck an interesting note with me because I too have experienced this many times. When I was younger I'd set my VHS to record some TV show that was on after my bedtime. The tape would always end up recording from the time I'd scheduled it until it ran out when it would eject. Without fail, I would always wake up just a couple of seconds before the tape ejected so I could remove it and put it away. I never understood why until years later. Was I subconsciously keeping time, was it just luck? Neither - the VCR made a specific high pitched noise barely audible the moment before it ejected the tape and somehow I was listening out for it and waking up when I heard it. You describe it so much more eloquently than I do, but I guess the principle is the same.
 
262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
Also I find it interesting how difficult it is to make sense of the written language but spoken language works just fine.

I should also say, just be aware of some minor side effects that can occur. I suffer sleep paralysis sometimes which feels like the beginning of what people call an out of body experience (astral projection) but for me, it's not a pleasant feeling anymore (this happens more when the air in my bedroom is hot and stuffy). Also, with lucid dreams come the dreaded 'false awakenings' - you'll wake up in your bed and it'll feel absolutely real and you'll be conscious, but secretly you'll still be dreaming. It's like a lucid dream but you don't know it's happening until something weird takes place like you step off the top of the staircase and float to the bottom. I've sometimes had five or six of these in a row where I've snapped back to bed, rinse and repeat until I've finally woken up in reality. If you think it's happening, use a reality check to see if you're awake or dreaming (looking at the time on a bedside clock is an easy test).

I often get something similar but mostly while still dreaming. It feels very weird/awkward when I'm trying to walk or fight with my top side of the body being stuck in a horizontal position.

Huh, that sounds like fun. I'm already doing checks when waking up even though I haven't got false awakenings in a long time already. Some also recommend piercing your own hand with a finger but I'm wary this might not always work, just like with the nose.

although you never feel it in your eyes like you have to squint

Yeah, good observation, it never hurts my eyes. I had a dream where I was looking directly at something I thought was The Sun and I could feel its warmth in my bones, not burning but cozy and pleasant. It was the most peaceful dream I can recall.

I'm a firm believer that lucid dreams (and dreams in general) are very much informed from our own perspective and view of the world. If you're a musician and sound is very important to you, I imagine that your dreams will have vibrant soundscapes. For me being visually orientated, I perceive the world through patterns of light and shadow and that reflects in my dreams.

Did you ever have olfactory or gustatory experiences in a dream?

I've never used shadows themselves for a reality check, but one you can really easily do is to randomly find a light switch and flip it on and off a couple of times - don't just look to see if the bulb lights on and off but look for the brightness of the room changing, shadows appearing and disappearing on the walls etc. In a dream it's very difficult to see those changes so if the light level doesn't change with the flip of the switch you're either dreaming or you've got a blown bulb haha.

I don't remember ever seeing or using the light switch in a dream, but the places I'm in aren't always seem familiar. Randomly find a light switch... who's doing that, lol.
 
262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
@SlowMo Did you try blinking your eyes in a dream? Or alternating eye focus between distant and closer objects?
 

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