Discussion Life is objectively undesirable

[Saponification]

The way I see it, life seems objectively undesirable.

Whilst being alive and sentient, you are certain to experience suffering. Pleasure, on the other hand, is not guaranteed.

The average person will have to endure slight to moderate suffering everyday (the tedium of everyday life; work/school, chores, etc.), yet pleasurable experiences are fleeting and sometimes far between.

The assymetry between suffering and pleasure is evident. Some suffering will be present every day, with the possibility of extreme suffering that could traumatize you for the rest of your life. The person you love the most can die in a traffic accident, be in the wrong place in the wrong time and you could get raped and tortured by some psycho, etc. And what's the best life has to offer? Sex? Spending time with friends and family? Eating good food? These are all extremely fleeting and can be taken away at any moment.

Life seems like a pretty shitty deal, from my point of view. Especially when the alternative is non-existence.

Life is flawed at its very core. Life is futilely satisfying need after need. Non-existence is the lack of needs. Non-existence is salvation from the cycle of meaningless torture. Life is indefendible.

Anyways, would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I agree. After Death is non-existence forever. Non-existence means no pain ever, no suffering, bad memories , problems , work, diseases , old age , oppression , lies , scams, chores etc ever . Non-existence frees one from all these horrors and more. I don't get it why people fear non-existence . Non-existence solves all problems at once and forever.

 

[ThisIsMe1357]

I absolutely do not think so. Sorry.

Whether someone's life is pleasant, horrible, or something in between depends on, well, that life itself. Majority of people likely have relatively good lives full of enjoyment, most of which comes from having a family, friends, purpose in life, and all kinds of different experiences. These things mentioned will always outweigh normal suffering everybody goes through sometimes. The scales are very much in favour of life at this point. I would even say that the fact that majority of people decide to live until the old age kind of proves that point.

I think life is beautiful if it is relatively normal and it should be cherished and valued.

It is only when someone experiences an unbearable suffering that is constant or very frequent, and for which there is no help which could possibly be given, when things are different. This could include complete immobility in old age, severe pain caused by untreatable cancer, horrible depression resistant to treatment, or such a bad life situation that a person can no longer get back on their feet. In this scenario the scales look very different and because the pain may be so bad that someone can no longer enjoy life just like other ordinary people can, non-existence could be a solution for them, but only if they so choose.

However, majority of ordinary and relatively good life should be encouraged.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I would even say that the fact that majority of people decide to live until the old age kind of proves that point.

Lol nobody decides to live until old age we're just stuck with it unless we actively do something very drastic about it. Why do you think every government restricts all peaceful CTB methods if everyone loves living so much?

 

[Saponification]

I absolutely do not think so. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I appreciate some debate.

Majority of people likely have relatively good lives full of enjoyment, most of which comes from having a family, friends, purpose in life, and all kinds of different experiences. These things mentioned will always outweigh normal suffering everybody goes through sometimes.

When you're experiencing these pleasurable experiences you're fulfilling needs that were created when you were born. Non-existence is a perfect state (or, should I say, non-state) of being where you've no needs and thus zero possibility of suffering and no need for pleasure. It doesn't matter how good your life is, it can't possibly be any better than the alternative, which is non-existence. Add in the fact that whilst you're alive there's always the possibility of being put in situations of extreme suffering, and you might start to realize that life is a gamble that can't really yield any profits.

the fact that majority of people decide to live until the old age kind of proves that point.

Everyone's view on life is extremely biased due to factors like hard-wired fear of death and survival instinct, optimism bias, etc. So I wouldn't be too sure about that.

 

[kyhoti]

"Logan's Run" fucked me up on this a long time ago.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd say it was very much subjective rather than objective. Objective matters rely on facts. Does everyone living an objectively dreadful or even just a difficult life believe that life itself is undesirable- clearly not. Otherwise, suicide would be widely accepted and legalised.

How can we even have an objective opinion on life? We rely on our emotions to tell us whether we enjoy something or not. Is pain objectively bad? Not exactly. Pain has a function. It tells us we've just cut ourselves and need to do something about it. It's subjectively bad because it hurts.

But, what we find pleasurable, painful or just tolerable ranges from person to person. If you asked the average person whether they thought life was objectively bad, how do you think they would respond? If they respond that life's default setting is bad, why are so many of them having children?

I don't disagree with you from a subjective point of view. I think there's more than enough reason for anyone to hate life. But, to say it's objectively bad ignores how other people- probably the majority of people feel. If we want them to acknowledge and respect how we feel and not impose their ideas of life on us, I feel like we need to do the same in return.

 

[syph_ilis]

I completely agree, and you've put it quite eloquently.

For whatever reason (maybe just due to the human psyche), I find that any happy, pleasurable moments in life are just so transient and fleeting, whereas all suffering painfully lingers. Any moments of happiness disappear as soon as it's over, while all the pain is re-lived daily. At some point it's completely rational to question whether the suffering is even worth the few, brief blips where life seems to be going well.

Personally, I can never remember and appreciate any 'happy' moments. Sure, while I live through them I can feel some joy, but the second it's over and I return to the monotony I can never recreate that or feel it again. For some cruel reason this does not apply to the shittier parts of life, so the natural tendency of living is to always return to suffering.

If we imagine life satisfaction as some spectrum with suffering on one end and happiness on the other, death and non-existence would be right in the middle of that, as it is the complete absence of feeling. Thus, the only way living is desirable is if, in aggregate, the happiness from the good times exceeds the unhappiness from the bad times. I assume for many of us that is not the case.

 

[Plentiful_Despair]

This is true, and the media desperately try to surpress any mention of this. This is also the real reason why governments try to shut down this website, they don't care that some workslaves die, they care about the realization that life truly is hopeless spreading and more people accepting the truth. He who knows will not obey, and thats dangerous to status quo.

 

[Marco77]

Some say: "life is beautiful, life is a precious gift".If this is true, why are there anti-suicide protections on bridges? Why is anyone who does not praise life and its "infinite beauty" stigmatized? Why is this site under attack if life is so beautiful and desirable? No one should even worry about selling Nembutal in the supermarket for 2 euros (what it's really worth).
The law says that by law we must live. But then, what do we live for? Just to die. The law and religion says so on the cover. Have a nice existence guys.
There is no such thing as pleasure. Pleasure is nothing more than a moment of absence of pain.

 

[ThisIsMe1357]

Lol nobody decides to live until old age we're just stuck with it unless we actively do something very drastic about it. Why do you think every government restricts all peaceful CTB methods if everyone loves living so much?

Then let me rephrase. I think the vast majority of people would not decide to die earlier than they would naturally, even if there was a relatively easily accessible method to do so, like certain programs in Switzerland, just with less restrictions and without the money requirement.

I seriously doubt the majority of all humanity believes non existence is better than life in general. If that was true, we would see a much different world, a different portrayal of opinions in public and a lot more support for assisted suicide. Actually, if majority of people believed it, we would even have euthanasia laws already in place in plenty of countries (compared to right now) simply because of politics and populism taking care of that on their own.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Your post is right and I agree with the post itself. However, I don't think that what you said can be used to conclude that life is objectively undesirable. The things that you said in your post is objectively true as there is an asymmetry between suffering and pleasure. You're also right about everybody having to go through slight to moderate suffering every day due to life itself (and this doesn't even take into account of those who have to go through extreme suffering). However, despite all of this being true, life can't objectively be terrible as most people do enjoy life despite all of this. As for how they enjoy life, I don't know, I really don't. It baffles me just as much as it baffles you. In the end though, the mere act of them enjoying life proves that life is subjectively undesirable. I'm not going to deny that just because I don't understand how people are like

 

[offbalance]

While many people may enjoy life, I also wonder if that enjoyment is derived from humans being very good at fooling themselves and thinking the situation is better than it is. Like another poster mentioned, Pollyanna principle, optimism bias, SI etc and this is all subconscious so they don't realize they're operating on deluded foundations.

Or maybe their brain just allows them to focus on the positive more. So even if life is objectively more bad than good, they're more able to focus on the positive. So it's like deluded in a way but since our experience is all created by the brain, it's still real for them because the experience is caused by real brain chemicals. Idk still seems delusional and just plain "blissed out" on brain chemicals from my perspective. And objectively it probably is but if they're able to sustain those pleasant feelings and motivation good for them I guess. Many people are probably motivated by making the world better, which is noble.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

While many people may enjoy life, I also wonder if that enjoyment is derived from humans being very good at fooling themselves and thinking the situation is better than it is. Like another poster mentioned, Pollyanna principle, optimism bias, SI etc and this is all subconscious so they don't realize they're operating on deluded foundations.

Or maybe their brain just allows them to focus on the positive more. So even if life is objectively more bad than good, they're more able to focus on the positive. So it's like deluded in a way but since our experience is all created by the brain, it's still real for them because the experience is caused by real brain chemicals. Idk still seems delusional and just plain "blissed out" on brain chemicals from my perspective. And objectively it probably is but if they're able to sustain those pleasant feelings and motivation good for them I guess. Many people are probably motivated by making the world better, which is noble.

i think they are heavily programmed .
They can't see that life has no meaning and that nothing matters.

First of all no one can convince me that there is some reason i should live or that anything is important , good, valuable , woth it to live etc.

No one can convince me why i have to live or do any activity or why i would want to , or do anything. no one can convince me anything is objectively good or important especially not life or living.

I can't say this anywhere else or i'll get banned or put in a mental hospital: so all i can do is challenge anyone here to convince me of any of this or to tell me why i have to live or do anything. i can tell you no one can because nothing is objectively important so that i would have to do it or want to do it or be convinced enough to do it. no one can change my mind. the only thing that matters to me is avoiding unbearable pain and extreme suffering and getting to non-existence asap

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Actually, if majority of people believed it, we would even have euthanasia laws already in place in plenty of countries (compared to right now) simply because of politics and populism taking care of that on their own.

That's exactly what is happening. More and more people are becoming enlightened. Perceptions are changing and therefore laws are, too. No one said it would happen overnight. Change takes time. Even the newborn kitty with their eyes closed has to open them up, eventually.

 

[offbalance]

i think they are heavily programmed .
They can't see that life has no meaning and that nothing matters.

First of all no one can convince me that there is some reason i should live or that anything is important , good, valuable , woth it to live etc.

No one can convince me why i have to live or do any activity or why i would want to , or do anything. no one can convince me anything is objectively good or important especially not life or living.

I can't say this anywhere else or i'll get banned or put in a mental hospital: so all i can do is challenge anyone here to convince me of any of this or to tell me why i have to live or do anything. i can tell you no one can because nothing is objectively important so that i would have to do it or want to do it or be convinced enough to do it. no one can change my mind. the only thing that matters to me is avoiding unbearable pain and extreme suffering and getting to non-existence asap

Many people recognize that life is ultimately meaningless yet are still able to be motivated. It's all in the brain, they're able to be motivated by pleasure or by their own meaning, which creates more pleasure, etc. I do think programming and religion plays a part but like other people have said, if it was the whole story, you would likely see more support for stuff like this. Especially among atheists of the world. But I do see why you think it plays such a big part, how can anybody find pleasure in this life if they're not programmed? I just think it can be brain chemicals alone, their brain chemicals make the experience of pleasure real to them and more able to focus on the positive.