Venting Just "trust" in God

[TAW122]

Note: This is not saying that all Christians (or religious) people do this, and in no way am I singling anyone out specifically. I am merely giving my anecdotal experiences of responses made by religious people that I find to be irrational or unsound.

Have you ever heard of religious people oftenly say "Just ask God", "Just pray to Jesus/God", "Just trust in God", "It's God's plan" or anything similar to that? I find it really annoying and irritating that people oftenly say that without considering what they are saying or whether they are being intellectually dishonest. These are the people who would credit God whenever things goes well, and have a cop out/excuse if things don't go well, fall through, or doesn't pan out. In short, if things succeed = God's will, if things fail = God's will, God is infallible.

For example, if going through a difficult time, IRL I had people say just pray to God or anything, so that means if things goes well (sometimes it happens), then they oftenly give credit to God, but when things don't go well (gets worse, doesn't improve), they chalk it up to the fact that "it wasn't God's plan" or "God had other plans". Just really inane remarks that are logically inconsistent. It's like they have an unfalsifiable position and that whatever happens is not God's fault and that God is always right, absolute.

Also, as an atheist, I believe in reasonable evidence and action other than just simply "praying" and hoping for the best. Of course, a majority of religious people would oftenly just be in denial and delusion about the logic and even get hostile when confronted or called out. It's like their way of shirking any responsibility from their "God" and anything to question their view is seen as an attack, but I digress.

 

[AlexM]

I often hear that, and then I ask - 20 000 000 ctb attempt per year, is also "God's will, God is infallible"? Wars, illness, suffering, downed aircraft - maybe religions people pray not enough? No responses.

 

[TAW122]

I often hear that, and then I ask - 20 000 000 ctb attempt per year, is also "God's will, God is infallible"? Wars, illness, suffering, downed aircraft - maybe religions people pray not enough? No responses.

Yeah, I really hate it when they say that, it's like they don't have an answer, and they just fall 'silent'. Then of course, there are apologists (another sub group of people within a religion) that would churn/spin up some other alternative explanation, oftenly defending the very religion that they practice. This includes people like Frank Turek who does all sorts of mental gymnastics (but in a coherent way) to defend Christianity and to justify every good (and evil) events in history. In regards to apologists, I feel like it is pretty much an impossible battle because regardless of what claim or argument you try to throw at them, they just weasel and jump around all kinds of hoops (including even violating fallacies here and there) to justify and rationalize what they said.

I oftenly avoid trying to get into long winded discussions, but I can't help but be annoyed at their illogical, sometimes pigheaded imposition of their stance. I simply agree to disagree and there is just no way to defeat them with logic (especially if they are dishonest and oftenly just try to make shit up to suit their claim.)

 

[BooGirl]

I really wish that I could believe in God sometimes.

 

[hatelife]

I really wish that I could believe in God sometimes.

I believe in him at times, at other times not, or not sure, so nobody can be 100 percent sure right, but prayers work sometimes...

 

[AlexM]

I really wish that I could believe in God sometimes.

Nobody can deny you that

 

[BooGirl]

Nobody can deny you that

Of course, but I can't, logically.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

What's the saying?
Trust in God. But carry a big stick.

 

[AlexM]

But carry a big stick.

Excuse me, what does it mean? :)

 

[a.h]

Many Christians have died with lighter heart and without fear since they have trusted that God will be there waiting for them.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

What's the saying?
Trust in God. But carry a big stick.

Sorry I got it wrong, was actually thinking of this

Big stick ideology - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And this

trust in God, but keep your powder dry

Definition of trust in God, but keep your powder dry in the Idioms Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

idioms.thefreedictionary.com

Got the two confused!

 

[Epsilon0]

Note: This is not saying that all Christians (or religious) people do this, and in no way am I singling anyone out specifically. I am merely giving my anecdotal experiences of responses made by religious people that I find to be irrational or unsound.

Have you ever heard of religious people oftenly say "Just ask God", "Just pray to Jesus/God", "Just trust in God", "It's God's plan" or anything similar to that? I find it really annoying and irritating that people oftenly say that without considering what they are saying or whether they are being intellectually dishonest. These are the people who would credit God whenever things goes well, and have a cop out/excuse if things don't go well, fall through, or doesn't pan out. In short, if things succeed = God's will, if things fail = God's will, God is infallible.

For example, if going through a difficult time, IRL I had people say just pray to God or anything, so that means if things goes well (sometimes it happens), then they oftenly give credit to God, but when things don't go well (gets worse, doesn't improve), they chalk it up to the fact that "it wasn't God's plan" or "God had other plans". Just really inane remarks that are logically inconsistent. It's like they have an unfalsifiable position and that whatever happens is not God's fault and that God is always right, absolute.

Also, as an atheist, I believe in reasonable evidence and action other than just simply "praying" and hoping for the best. Of course, a majority of religious people would oftenly just be in denial and delusion about the logic and even get hostile when confronted or called out. It's like their way of shirking any responsibility from their "God" and anything to question their view is seen as an attack, but I digress.

I come from a deeply religious family, and almost all of my friends growing up were very religious. It's funny that I broke the mould.

Anyway, here are the stupidest answers I have always heard from religious folks in relation to... well... pretty much everything:

1. "It's god's will."

2. "God works in mysterious ways."


So, according to the first statement, believers know god's mind. According to the second statement, they don't.

So, when it suits them, they claim to know god's will. When it does not suit them, they claim god is a mystery.

It makes me wanna say to them: "People, you can't have it both ways, make up your minds: do you, or do you not know god's mind?"


Imagine the hubris of anyone who claims there is an allpowerful creator and they know his mind... geeez!

 

[Eagle Elle]

I've been praying and feel the prayers are not heard. It is quite hard to hear "God has a plan" and all that other shit when you are flailing in life and barely surviving.

 

[TheDevilsAngel]

When I think of god I think of the concentration camps.. If there was a god would he have let millions of people be put in a gas chamber and burned.... There can't be a god.... Its like santa we are told to believe until we get to age a realise the difference between fantasy and reality.... Just my opinion on the matter.... Want say that I was raised Christian I tried to pray etc.... Life is hell the only person and God there is, is the one in my head... I've been praying too myself.

 

[passenger27]

The only thing I trust in God is that more than likely he doesn't exist.

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

Well, by that logic, suicide should be also a part of god's plan. Somehow though it isn't, and the god's plan somehow happens to align perfectly with what the person talking about it has in his/her mind.

 

[porfin1234]

I think there's more to this world than just the physical form we all experience. As far as there being this big fatherly figure watching over us... meh. I don't necessarily think we are alone either. But it doesn't mean there is some magical being taking care of us. Although I've wondered considering my good luck even when I screw everything up. It's like my mom trying to clean up after my mess and giving me a safety net from beyond the grave.

i think magical thinking can be dangerous thought. Very. Logic goes out the window, make connections that aren't there... and you end up doing shit like I did- sacrifice home and job "trust the universe" risk it all just to end up in horrible situation instead of taking care of yourself in the first place rather than leaving things to "chance" and hope it'll work out. Makes people passive too

 

[purplemoon]

I'm a Christian and used to yell at God but loved Jesus more... I've come around to still getting fussy but not enraged anymore with God. I know I'm probably one of very few Christians on here, LOL. I don't blindly follow anyone or anything, including organized religion, although I do like going to church sometimes, singing to songs about God/Jesus, but I know that organized religion Judaism/Christianity only has about half of it right. I go by what God tells me directly, not what humans think God is, what God does. I only go by my own direct spiritual experiences.

I know where I'm going when I die again, into heaven where it is completely safe with no evil at all, only goodness, balance, empathy, love, kindness, peace, joy, integrity, dignity, and best of all... completeness with absolute happiness.

I died from an overdose some years ago, it was the most fantastic, beautiful, slightly scary at first experience EVER... I was FREE, HAPPY, and absolutely in love with the spiritual realm once I got out of the bizarre black void part. They call it an NDE but my best friend literally saw me die and said I had no pulse, no breathing, nothing for about 4 minutes. Those minutes felt like basically the equivalent of a day, although past, present, & future existed all at once strangely. It was the most wonderful series of moments my soul has ever had. My reasons for wanting to CTB now include too much PTSD effects, mostly horrible family, crappy society, physical pain, and DEFINITELY because of my spiritual experiences when I overdosed and got to fly past this world, the moon, the stars, into another realm.

My profile is purple moon because that was one of the most defining moments of my entire soul. After i looked down on my body and flew through the ceiling, into the sky, i floated in front of the moon, saw amazing brilliant purple & royal blue color hue around the moon, and had the most incredible epiphany and peace within, felt fully free, and then continued on my journey. Until God/Jesus showed me my life review, explained some answers for me, I argued I don't want to leave and return to my body, but was told I had to go back and "finish". **sigh**

I understand people will say i dreamed it, or that's 'crazy', blah, blah, blah.. They'll see one day, it's all very real. It's not what they think it is, there are no physical forms just different types of energy. Emotions/feelings are just one of many types of energy.

I'm not here to prove anything though, believe as you wish.

I just can't wait to finally be successful in my escape from this ridiculous place where evil is roaming around. I want to be happy again. I was the most happy outside of my body and free, enjoying my AfterLife permanently this time around.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Even Gautama Buddha and his followers used mental gymnastics to justify.

Examples (tried to be entertaining while factual):

- Gautama claimed that there are gods but they don't interfere or impact us. Yet after he achieved what he claimed to be perfect (that is, whole and complete) enlightenment, he said that Brahman, who he had been in a previous incarnation, advised him to not keep the dharma he'd discovered to himself just because it was difficult to understand (I'm so complex, I'm just too deep). He said Brahman convinced him that there were some who had little dust in their eyes and were ready to hear and therefore achieve their enlightenment. He agreed to enlighten them, created the sangha, and taught for the rest of his life.

I call this mental gymnastics. It is referred to as Gautama's great compassion, but it seems his efforts were reluctant, and I call bullshit that a god intervened when he said they don't. I think he convinced himself, because what he really wanted to go off and enjoy his solitude and meditation, but his ego wanted to be the Perfectly Enlightened One, the Buddha, and get all the perks of being right all. the. time.

- Gautama claimed to be omniscient. He knew some shit that happened without being told. Like when he achieved his enlightenment and made the decision to share it with those who were ready as per Brahman's advice, the first two people he thought of he realized had already died and later received confirmation. I don't doubt he had psychic skillz, but....

Later he taught about hating the body. While he was on retreat, a group of monks decided that the best response to hating their bodies would be to suicide, or to have another monk kill them and the monk would get merit for it. When Gautama returned from retreat and learned of what had happened, he gave instruction for an alternate focus to combat the urge to annihliate oneself as a response to the hate, and to the non-attachment to life and the rejection of the body that the hate inspired.

Gautama didn't admit to there being an error in what he claimed were perfect teachings. He only gave the antidote. His apologists came up with various mental gymnastics to explain the contradiction to his supposed omniscience and the supposed perfection of the dharma. For instance, some said that he knew what would happen and that it was their karma to misunderstand and suicide, so he went away while it was happening. I forget the other gymnastic excuses.

- Gautama's cousin, Devadatta, was also the brother of Gautama's wife. He was part of the sangha and wanted some rules added. Gautama said no and Devadatta challenged his authority. He left the sangha and started his own, and later attempted to have someone murder the Buddha.

Attempt to kill a Buddha? 1) You can't. 2) Automatic rebirth in a hell realm.

Create division in the sangha? Hell realm.

But, as Devadatta was dying, he attempted to reconcile with Gautama but died en route.

Guess what? He got a last-minute reprieve with beau coup merits and would have a better rebirth!

Devadatta has gone down in Buddhist history as a scapegoat and a foil for the Buddha's always-right actions. Here's how. Just prior to his enlightenment, Gautama recalled hundreds of past lives, and Devadatta's karma was to always be the antagonist to Gautama's achieving perfection, therefore his path was to serve Gautama's achievement of perfection. Talk about an ego! There is a collection of parables from the recalled past lives called the Nikayas, and Devadatta is always trying to screw things up. The guy is the universal archetype of the scapegoat! BUT, he was both holding himself back in rebirths so that he was always lower than Gautama, yet earning great merits by being shitty and giving Gautama chances to achieve his destiny. I'm dizzy from all these somersaults!

- Speaking harshly to others produces conditions for a bad rebirth. Well, Gautama's brother joined the sangha but he wasn't going along with taking off his eyeliner and a few other things. So Gautama publicly chewed him out. His justification for speaking harshly was that he was speaking like a parent and that his action was therefore compassionate. I call bullshit.

- In the contemporary sangha, women have come forward to report sexual assaults by their dharma teachers, monks who are clearly prohibited by their precepts to engage in sexual conduct or harm others. The head of Shambala Buddhism molested, raped, brandished weapons at people, was an alcoholic and abused (and shared) substances. The response of monks in high positions is often that it was then victim's karma, and that it was the perpetrator's karma to show compassion in their position by giving the victim the opportunity to achieve their karma and learn. So then why the rules??? There is no accountability. Anyone who criticizes the sangha and the teachers risks rebirth in a hell realm. WTF?

SO....

This is why I am not a Buddhist. I reject the mental gymnastics and the rules of the community. Just as I left Christianity because I reject the idea that a loving god created everyone, but will send some to hell for not accepting Jesus. Or that God commanded to not murder, yet supported war because the Jews were his chosen peeps. Gods seem to exist to regulate us others, to support us getting what we want (manifest destiny in the US's takeover of the continent), and to justify violence and controlling others.

I don't know if there is or is not a god or gods, but I don't believe God is love. I don't buy into bad things happening because God is unknowable and we just have to trust. Agreed that it is an exercise of mental gymnastics.

 

[TAW122]

I come from a deeply religious family, and almost all of my friends growing up were very religious. It's funny that I broke the mould.

Anyway, here are the stupidest answers I have always heard from religious folks in relation to... well... pretty much everything:

1. "It's god's will."

2. "God works in mysterious ways."


So, according to the first statement, believers know god's mind. According to the second statement, they don't.

So, when it suits them, they claim to know god's will. When it does not suit them, they claim god is a mystery.

It makes me wanna say to them: "People, you can't have it both ways, make up your minds: do you, or do you not know god's mind?"


Imagine the hubris of anyone who claims there is an allpowerful creator and they know his mind... geeez!

Very accurate and that's pretty much my experiences with a lot of religious people IRL especially the ones that are really devout. I don't try to reason with them anymore, it's no use as I won't be able to change them and it only creates more friction and tension, unnecessary stress in my already stressful, shitty life.

Well, by that logic, suicide should be also a part of god's plan. Somehow though it isn't, and the god's plan somehow happens to align perfectly with what the person talking about it has in his/her mind.

Yes, that's true too, however most pro-lifers and devoutly religious people will deny that and use the "God is benign" reasoning to say that God doesn't allow it and 'sin is the consequence/result of the fall of mankind' reasoning (referring all the way back to Genesis).

I think there's more to this world than just the physical form we all experience. As far as there being this big fatherly figure watching over us... meh. I don't necessarily think we are alone either. But it doesn't mean there is some magical being taking care of us. Although I've wondered considering my good luck even when I screw everything up. It's like my mom trying to clean up after my mess and giving me a safety net from beyond the grave.

i think magical thinking can be dangerous thought. Very. Logic goes out the window, make connections that aren't there... and you end up doing shit like I did- sacrifice home and job "trust the universe" risk it all just to end up in horrible situation instead of taking care of yourself in the first place rather than leaving things to "chance" and hope it'll work out. Makes people passive too

Agreed and yes, I believe that most of the time we only have ourselves and not necessarily some higher power. This doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but in my eyes, even if it did, it's role is rather minimal at best. Sometimes even when we take care of ourselves the best we can, we still fall short or have shit variables that fuck up our day to day lives (shit that is out of our control).

@purplemoon Excellent story, and yes, I have heard of many NDE (Near Death Experiences) or DE (Death Experience) in your case since you mentioned that you actually 'died' for 4+ minutes. Thanks for sharing your experiences and I also hope you find peace in the future.

@GoodPersonEffed Thanks for sharing your insights and yes, I think most people go through lots of hoops as well as logical fallacies to justify their position. Sometimes, I'm more inclined to think that it's people who have a certain view and they use religion to fit that view (even if it means bending, twisting the religion to fit it).

 

[mattwitt]

In mho when so called Christians say "Trust in God" they have no idea what it means. Trusting in God to a Christian should mean everything will be o.k. in the afterlife not in this life.