Isn't it odd that suicidality only really appeared once modern civilizations did?

[Dontwant2Bhere]

Only really existed since the times that civilization (the first civilizations are considered those cultures that developed around agriculture) has existed.

Modern day hunter gatherer tribes living in remote jungle, with next to no contact with the modern, "civilized" world do not experience depression or most forms of mental illness. And the ones that do fit into a niche (shamans, other roles like that, etc).

In fact, these people, when asked if they'd ever like to move to America (or any developed countries), will laugh at you and think you're crazy for suggesting such a thing! They literally say things like "why would we want to live somewhere where people jump off of buildings to end their own lives??!".

And they kind of have a point.

Keep in mind, that these are the same people who if one of them falls off of a tall tree and breaks their leg, the family of that person will gather around them and mourn their death for 2 weeks, WHILE the person is in agony and eventually dies from infection, because they KNOW that kind of injury is fatal, and they have no medical technology...

My idea? The best "society" to live in would be a hunter gatherer one, but with modern medical tech, ran by advanced, self-building and self-maintaining robots...

It'd basically be us to living the way we are evolutionarily and biologically tuned for (optimal), but with the added benefits of modern medicine.

If you really think about it, other than, uh, LIVING, and having a sense of community, and not suffering physical suffering from medical issues, what is the purpose to all the rest of this crap in modern day life?

We have a huge massive population on this planet destroying every other species, because we require all of this energy consumption so we can drive and do our jobs, just so we can have a fancier version of a hut, and get to spend the enjoyable part of our days on stupid little habits that we to like as a way to make up for the pointlessness of most modern jobs.

But is being able to sit on your couch at the end of the day watching netflix and eating ice cream until 3am just to repeat it 5 days a week that much better than essentially a giant camping trip with a community of people, where you all take care of each other's needs, and all without destroying the only planet we have (and LITERALLY destroying our mental health as well)?

Idk. But what do y'all think that it's literally our modern world that's making us miserable, with all of this technology, and societal "advancements"—and everything else we are so proud of—thats driving us to the point of suicide? That it's this modern day, "perfect" society that's driven us to not even want to reproduce anymore (birth rates are WAY WAY down, and continue dropping...)?

Like, life might have its challenges being a hunter gatherer, but at least with modern MEDICINE (our only true thing worth being proud of that we've produced, after thousands of years of society) combined with a natural lifestyle, idk... Sounds pretty darned good to me!!!

Throw in some robotically grown and delivered plant and algae based foods we can eat if farming seasons aren't great (or more likely, because there's literally no animal populations left to hunt anymore... Thanks, humans!), so people wouldn't be driven by starvation to go to war with each other to raid each other.

I could be crazy, but what more of a literal garden of Eden could there be?

It's funny because it wouldn't take *more* to reach this, it would take much much *less* to reach a world actually worth living in, that we were actually biologically built for for maximum fulfillment...

Maybe when the world and all of it's societies and great empires are fully collapsed in about 10 years or so (not even joking), but we have advanced AI and robotics at that point (and probably unfortunately a way smaller global population), maybe this could actually happen....

- - -

-Some sources for some of my claims-

Depression being a disease of modernity (possibly beginning with agricultural societies) - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3330161/

 

[pascagalias]

I like the idea. Our civilisation is far away from what natural human life has been once.
Maybe one day we will be able to really reunite technology with nature. At least it's a good thing to hope for.

But in my opinion, we are already trying, although not getting together around a dying person for weeks. But Spirituality, Art and Communities are somehow carrying these traditions.

Maybe it's just not the right proportion at the moment. Like, too much industrial production of garbage, and too little living.

 

[Hvergelmir]

Modern day hunter gatherer tribes living in remote jungle, with next to no contact with the modern, "civilized" world do not experience depression or most forms of mental illness.

How would you know?
I tried to find research on this, but as could be predicted, there doesn't seem to be any data on the topic.

They literally say things like "why would we want to live somewhere where people jump off of buildings to end their own lives??!".

Source on that? Suicide is rare, even when the rates are concerningly high. I doubt that any country is widely associated with suicide.
Aversion to moving to vastly different society is otherwise natural. It comes with a lot of uncertainty, and requires a lot of personal adjustment. People jumping from rooftops is not a common factor.

It's common for primitive tribes to use modern factory-manufactured tools and clothes, when they can, though.

If you really think about it, other than, uh, LIVING, and having a sense of community, and not suffering physical suffering from medical issues, what is the purpose to all the rest of this crap in modern day life?

That's a valid question. I think the core issue is lack of adversity, which would also apply to your robot supported utopia. When basic necessities are provided, there's not much meaning to anything.
Contemporary societies already allow us to grow, gather, or hunt our own food, for leisure. With your utopia putting the ultimate responsibility of food security on the robots, I'm not sure that procurement would feel any more meaningful than it already does. (I'm not saying that it's pointless, just that it's not of the same existential importance that it was in pre-modern times.)

In a safe environment we have to be creative to create a sense of meaning. I think that's what "the rest of this crap in modern day life" is about.

 

[Dontwant2Bhere]

How would you know?
I tried to find research on this, but as could be predicted, there doesn't seem to be any data on the topic.

Source on that? Suicide is rare, even when the rates are concerningly high. I doubt that any country is widely associated with suicide.
Aversion to moving to vastly different society is otherwise natural. It comes with a lot of uncertainty, and requires a lot of personal adjustment. People jumping from rooftops is not a common factor.

It's common for primitive tribes to use modern factory-manufactured tools and clothes, when they can, though.

That's a valid question. I think the core issue is lack of adversity, which would also apply to your robot supported utopia. When basic necessities are provided, there's not much meaning to anything.
Contemporary societies already allow us to grow, gather, or hunt our own food, for leisure. With your utopia putting the ultimate responsibility of food security on the robots, I'm not sure that procurement would feel any more meaningful than it already does. (I'm not saying that it's pointless, just that it's not of the same existential importance that it was in pre-modern times.)

In a safe environment we have to be creative to create a sense of meaning. I think that's what "the rest of this crap in modern day life" is about.

There's documentaries on this stuff, where literally the only people who can speak the language of the folks deep in the jungle is people from nearby slightly larger tribes (that have a few folks who speak English who can translate). I can try and find you the documentaries, there might be something similar from a Joe Rogan podcast from folks who have spent time with extremely isolated tribes saying the same thing. I've heard it multiple times before.

And concerning the point about lack of adversity because of robots supplying some food? No, because it wouldn't be the tastiest, wouldn't be meat, would be like I said, plant based and maybe algae based stuff that would provide the necessary nutrition, but would only be a supplementary diet for what humans primarily crave. It would just be a sort of social safety net, if you will, to ensure no starvation and no overwhelming need for survival based aggression because of starvation/lack of resources.

And suicide is not rare. Depending on the country, we've got certain age groups (young and slightly middle aged adults but on the younger side) where suicide is literally the #1-#3 killer for those age groups. And you know for every hanging that's successful, they say there's between 10-25 attempts (estimated) that don't succeed. Probably mostly partial. And then you have the hundreds of thousands of fentanyl overdoses, that aren't counted as suicide, but is still a highly suicidal behavior in a lot of ways. And then you have all of the suicide attempts from the youngest age groups (usually OTC overdoses or cutting).

I'm just saying, completed suicides are actually very, very high, and then you factor everything else in that is very close to suicide leading to deaths, and all the attempts? Imagine from all of the age groups, every year, all of the completed plus attempted suicides.. That's a large, large number.

But no, the statistics on depression and mental illness concerning people who live more remote with more traditional lifestyle, and scientific evidence absolutely shows a tiny tiny amount of mental illness proportionally compared to Western civilization.

And yeah, they find that smaller tribes of 40-50 to a hundred people work best. Keeps all the different levels of "bureaucracy" down, which means the leaders are at a closer level to the people. Less disconnect, and they all share the same needs, and need each other. The big thing to me is that they can't just hide away in mansions with private security details when they go in public, which allows modern day leaders to become completely disconnected from who they are responsible for. It's the natural order of things, believe it or not, it comes natural.

And btw contemporary societies are a far cry from the freedom of what humans evolved in. You can't even collect your own rainwater, live in the woods (unless you own the property and pay taxes on it. Ain't even woods around for most people), heck, you can't live without a house, do anything, without paying taxes on everything, buying licenses for everything. The list goes on and on and on. In modern societies, you are completely locked in, and there is no life as we knew it. You either work the standard jobs in standard society, or you go to jail (being homeless is actually illegal in most of the US). And if you mess up at any point of your life, there's no reset button: you mess up, life gets PERMANENTLY more difficult in many ways, and this society never forgets ANYTHING.

Edit: I will try to find your sources for the claims being made here, it might take me a little bit but I'll try to get the best I can by the end of the day for you, because I have looked into this stuff forever, and have done quite a bit of research over the last decade. Just don't have anything saved I can easily jump to. I'll get it for you though, happily