LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,170
That site gives me mixed messages. I like this site so much more. I re-visited that site and can't help but wonder if it's goal is some type of reverse-psychology.
Even the "my story" and "your stories" page seems to all be about people being "saved" from suicide. And how they hope to "save" other people.
(Also a lot of "I'm the last person someone would think was suicidal, so many great things about me, etc" which sorry, as a side note, Cant relate!! lol)
I thought there would be stories about people thanking the site for understanding and that they were still going to peace out.

When I first went on there, It just scared me into thinking I didn't even have the option anymore. Which made me feel even more trapped.
It makes me wonder if the statistics listed are skewed too.
My gut-feeling is just screaming at me when I go back on there..anyone else have any opinions on this? Insight?
I can't shake the sense of the goal being to pull my strings.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
Seems pretty neutral to me. If you find yourself ambivalent it lays out the facts to consider, cuts through romanticized views of suicide, death and dying, and outlines the aftermath of failure. Generally cites its sources of statistics used. Pro choice is about all the informed choices, even ones involved in helping a person from the edge. That to me seems like choices presented, not a mixed message. I also doubt they can put up stories of the people helped by that site to die cleanly, because that is still viewed as crime most places, it is not a causal link you want at your door if you can help it. On some level the site owner would know this, especially as internet service provider black list pressure grows and sites like this and there can get swallowed up by legislative efforts. It also seems that site is used to channel their own issues so it makes sense to be protective of it. As for saving people they seem to do it with knowledge not force. What is wrong with that? What does it even matter if your mind is set? Then it is a pretty solid resource for considering genuine risks.
 
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LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,170
Seems pretty neutral to me. If you find yourself ambivalent it lays out the facts to consider, cuts through romanticized views of suicide, death and dying, and outlines the aftermath of failure. Generally cites its sources of statistics used. Pro choice is about all the informed choices, even ones involved in helping a person from the edge. That to me seems like choices presented, not a mixed message. I also doubt they can put up stories of the people helped by that site to die cleanly, because that is still viewed as crime most places, it is not a causal link you want at your door if you can help it. On some level the site owner would know this, especially as internet service provider black list pressure grows and sites like this and there can get swallowed up by legislative efforts. It also seems that site is used to channel their own issues so it makes sense to be protective of it. As for saving people they seem to do it with knowledge not force. What is wrong with that? What does it even matter if your mind is set? Then it is a pretty solid resource for considering genuine risks.
I don't think you really understood what I was saying. I never said they were forcing anyone to do anything.
And knowledge is not strictly a benevolent tool.
If the site is neutral then perhaps no 'your stories' should be posted. Unless there is a disclaimer that only those who chose life are able to have their stories shared publicly.

I do absolutely see something wrong with the general idea that stopping someone from suicide is "saving their life". A lot of people use this as an ideal and a 'dutiful' means and right to have people locked up and to interfere with catching the bus. Sometimes to the point where they make the person's life even worse. I do see issue with that phrase. You don't deny they're trying to 'save' people?
I can't really trust information if that's the true intention.

Whether a person's mind is set or not, why can a concern like this not be able to matter to them? Do I lose the right to have anything matter to me just because my trajectory is suicide?
Also of course it would matter to someone who wanted to get it on with but was worried about becoming a vegetable. Also if they were under the impression that they found a site they thought was one thing but turned out to be another.
I have not lost the right to ask questions and have doubt.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
I just gave you my opinion on the site as asked.

The site just seems to function as being open enough for you to take what you want to take from it. It is a complex issue. People are variable so it seems to cover all its bases. I agree though the Story section is definitely biased towards stories of people being helped. Even still does not change the robust nature of the information provided. The method section is biased towards effective death and considerations you need to take to ensure that. Seems balanced to me.

The formerly suicidal are some of the more passionate to want to save others though. Because a common human mistake is to assume your experience applies equally to everyone. They almost inflicted a tragedy on themselves, as they found quality of life and treasure something about life now, so maybe you can too? Personally, I see nothing wrong with that variety of 'saving' people with shared experience, it's their perspective and it comes from a compassionate place. I am glad to read of people who recover. That exhaust alternate avenues. It is not like suicide as a choice is going anywhere.

I do absolutely see something wrong with the general idea that stopping someone from suicide is "saving their life". A lot of people use this as an ideal and a 'dutiful' means and right to have people locked up and to interfere with catching the bus.

I guess that is where we differ. It is just a word to me that mirrors societies default view that suicide is a negative outcome. People are just reactive to that. I am always baffled when someone posts about how they told their husband they are going to kill themselves. Then are angry that they got the authorities involved... Maybe I am just weird and think that is counter-intuitive to the intended goal. I am fairly certain if I told my father I am going to die tomorrow, his response won't be. "All right son, well have a nice death. I have loved knowing you."

Some people are 'saved' from harm via intervention. Postpartum depression and psychosis are prime examples of that. Others are damaged or badly let down if they do want help. That is the grim reality. The autonomy of choice gets lost in all this.

The focus on words or societal blame is pointless in my opinion as well. Because even if you change the words used to more acceptable ones it does not resolve the core issue. That rational suicide is barely examined or is derailed towards the terminally ill only. It is an issue I wish was pushed on harder. Because more humane legislation would follow on from it. It gets a cursory mention at best in standard psychology textbooks. There is little in the way of meaningful studies on it. So any legislative discussion becomes difficult because you have little evidence to present. It is all biased in one direction. That of mental illness. Which then squarely moves it into interventionist laws. Most of those laws founded on outdated models, with a draconian edge and infantilising outcome that assumes you might stab up a random Joe. Then feature on the front page of the Sun newspaper. Or if you happen to have a personality disorder and need a safe place against impulsive suicidality you don't want to engage in because you love your mum and cat. Well you're probably an attention seeker at that point and are on your own. (Well that is true in the UK.)

I have rambled enough. Doubt though is certainly healthy. I can only wish you the best outcome for yourself regardless of where you put your trust or not.

Peace.
 
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Sayo

Sayo

Not 2B
Aug 22, 2018
520
I consider it to be leaning towards anti-suicide, but comparatively neutral. A stronger stance could be that it's controlled opposition. I wouldn't criticise that stance, as it's entirely possible and I don't know anything about the site other than what's presented on the pages.

I have a similar stance to LostAllHope, although I present differently, probably because I am actively suicidal and the owner/s of LAH is/are in remission.

I came across the site probably a decade ago. The content's been pretty consistent in its agenda. It doesn't hide its mission, but hopes it will succeed anyway. I believe the LAH owners respect some suicides more than others. They hope to prevent impulsive suicides, and are fairly clear about suicide being a last resort. The content is an effective deterrent to an impulsively suicidal person - it examines the problems with many impulsive suicide methods, and while the commentary tends to imply suicide is a bad option because a particular option, if executed poorly, is a poor option, what's presented on the site is factual and fair (not always rigorous). Much of what is discussed on LAH is a terrible idea. If an impulsively suicidal person came across that content, they would certainly feel discouraged, experience an anticlimax in motivation, and stop to consider what they are doing.

Even a non-impulsively suicidal person doing initial research might feel discouraged and stop to reconsider. The goal of most suicide interventions is to achieve that initial moment of hesitation - so that's enough to say LAH is anti-suicide, but more acceptingly; I agree that the stories are anti-suicide and there is certainly no competing information on there. The things to consider page is somewhat anti-suicide. But I don't think the things to consider page is as serious an offender, though it could be perceived as judgmental - I would like to hope that people who end their own existences have made their mind up, and statistically, it's not unreasonable to worry about.

I believe that it is possible for the impulsively suicidal to be truly grateful they didn't commit suicide, and that is the designated audience of the site. Every bit of content is designed with those people primarily in mind. I can understand this stance because, in publishing information about suicide, one can incur a fairly substantial ethical risk to themselves. I acknowledge also that those who feel that their lives have been saved (i.e. those who feel that their suicides would have been mistakes, or even regretted by them somehow) feel the need to pay it back by saving others. I guess the real dissonance is that it represents itself as something it's not in trying to carry out those duties.

It's harder for me to conclude the owner of the site has any judgment towards those who have made their mind up and want to proceed towards a reasoned suicide.

It presents itself as more impartial than it is, which is a tactic I've disliked. I still contend that the majority of information on LAH is fairly accurate, if a bit skewed at times (there's clear cherry picking and their methodology for finding and presenting information on some things is not really rigorous); it also has links (although they're a bit more buried) to suicide guides, although they're outdated somewhat...

I've generally judged LAH to be in alignment somewhat with a 'harm reduction' philosophy (you commonly see this with, say, drugs). I believe the owner of the site views suicide as tragic where it can be avoided, but tries to act in accordance with that philosophy. Their attitude, along with the actions they take to steer viewers of the site towards more encouraging, pro-life information, can be taken as anti-suicide. But I do believe that is an oversimplification.

One of the primary goals of LAH is to prevent long-term impairment/disfigurement from a botched suicide and I share it. It's the main reason why I used to answer a lot of threads with relatively obscure suicide information. I often worried that this could come off as overly discouraging and chase away people into worse situations.

One could semi-passively ideate using LAH for a long time without progressing further, as their need to research or ideate might be sated by the information on LAH.

LAH is certainly no suicide guide and it does not provide real useful information for how to die. In that sense, it is not neutral. It does provide some jumping-off points for research. If someone is determined to suicide in a thoughtful manner, they will need more information than is on LAH, and can presumably find it. One concern I've had with LAH previously is non-impulsive suicidal people, particularly those who can't research well, might conclude, wrongly for them, that if cleaner options are out of reach, they should go ahead with a bad plan, when a better plan could be realised.

I don't think being pro-living is necessarily a bad thing. If people want to live instead, I personally view that as a positive thing. SS and many users here share that stance - of hoping people will choose to live and supporting those who do. I think I have different standards than the LAH owners. They are also certainly more proactive about getting the information about there. It's a well-optimised search result.

Sorry for the long, rambly post. I thought about not making it. My executive functioning is too low to pare it down and find what information I've missed. Hopefully you find it pertinent anyway.

It's worth noting that the approach taken by LAH is fairly radical for such a popular site.
 
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SelfHatingAspie

SelfHatingAspie

Ambitious but rubbish
Jul 2, 2019
198
I see LAH as both neutral and essential. The overall feel seems to be pro-choice, but with a thin veneer of pro-life. The latter could just as easily be for self-preservation purposes, as the "saved" stories could be used as a defence should someone try and whip up a moral panic against LAH and attempt to have it shut down.

As for what I took out of LAH ... it made me consider my preferred methods more carefully. It also encouraged me to do enough research to ensure the highest chance of success when it's my time to CTB.

If that sort of encouragement isn't pro-choice, I don't know what is
 
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cornflowerblue

cornflowerblue

Mage
Feb 18, 2019
553
I see LAH as both neutral and essential. The overall feel seems to be pro-choice, but with a thin veneer of pro-life. The latter could just as easily be for self-preservation purposes, as the "saved" stories could be used as a defence should someone try and whip up a moral panic against LAH and attempt to have it shut down.

As for what I took out of LAH ... it made me consider my preferred methods more carefully. It also encouraged me to do enough research to ensure the highest chance of success when it's my time to CTB.

If that sort of encouragement isn't pro-choice, I don't know what is
It's changed over time. I think it's just trying to be legally compliant and avoid getting taken down.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,804
I agree with @Sayo in regards to the information at LAH. It is merely a really basic outline of facts on each method, but of course, it isn't comprehensive nor is it very effective for formulating an effective plan (especially one that has the least chance of failure). I consider the site to be a supplement to information on methods for some, but mostly a starting point for those who are vaguely looking at methods.

Also I think @cornflowerblue is correct in sites that talk about suicide, that in order to be legally compliant, they have to have some slant of discouragement or dissuasion from suicide (in order not to be shut down).
 
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Darkhaven

Darkhaven

All i have left is memories
May 19, 2019
979
Meh! It's like when you start listening to a new genre of music.
You begin with the most known and popular sub genres and bands and as your thirst for new things increase, you start listening to more "hardcore" things, untill there is nothing more agressive and extreme than that.
It's the same with depression and suicide forums.
You start reading threads in sites like reddit, full of pro-lifers and then as you start to get fed up with these people always telling you that "everything will be fine if you seek help and take your meds", you move to the whole suicide methods theme and then eventually you end up here.
SS, as far as i know, is like the death metal of the suicide websites.
 
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cornflowerblue

cornflowerblue

Mage
Feb 18, 2019
553
Meh! It's like when you start listening to a new genre of music.
You begin with the most known and popular sub genres and bands and as your thirst for new things increase, you start listening to more "hardcore" things, untill there is nothing more agressive and extreme than that.
It's the same with depression and suicide forums.
You start reading threads in sites like reddit, full of pro-lifers and then as you start to get fed up with these people always telling you that "everything will be fine if you seek help and take your meds", you move to the whole suicide methods theme and then eventually you end up here.
SS, as far as i know, is like the death metal of the suicide websites.
I see it as the opera or classical music :)
 
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LifeIsNotFun

LifeIsNotFun

Mage
Jun 1, 2019
530
He uses old PPH info from 2011 in some of his write ups. He needs to update his site a bit.
 
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