Discussion Is pain stronger than pleasure in life?

[nigelhernandez]

I've been thinking about this and it's probably true. One argument against suicide is that "everyone goes through good and bad times". I think that's false.

Firstly some people objectively go through worse things but even if someone claims to have more good than bad in life, the bad things are not symettrical to the good.

Science has even proven than physical/emotional pain lingers on far longer than any positive emotions. Think of the best things in life (eating good food, sex, obtaining money, using drugs). Think about how difficult it is to obtain them and how long they last. Now thing about the bad things (homelessness, disease, rape, torture, poverty, bereavement). Think about how easy those things can happen to anyone and how long their impact can last.

Would you flip a coin which on one side would give you the best pleasure on earth for 5 minutes but if it lands on the other side it gives you the worst pain possible for an equal 5 minutes?

 

[MariV]

indeed...thats the "trap" of this reality buddhists believe. we get hooked by ephimeral and fleeting pleasures to a world where suffering is the norm. its a trap!

 

[Spitfire]

If there was a universe where the worst pain we could ever possibly experience was stubbing a toe. I would accept that type of scenario. In this scenario, I would flip the coin... As long as pleasure remains the same for how we know some people can experience it to be happy and elated.

I am not interested in experiencing even a nano seconds worth of the worst possible pain currently being experienced in the world as we know it.

 

[death137]

Yeah pain is more felt than pleasure. I wouldn't even flip a coin if one side is 5 minutes best pleasure and other side 1 minuets worst pain.

 

[inactive]

Chronic sadness exists in abundance but chronic happiness doesn't exist at all.

 

[Mr2005]

It is for me. That's all I'm going to say

 

[MariV]

Chronic sadness exists in abundance but chronic happiness doesn't exist at all.

there you said it!!

 

[Deleted member 94]

I programmed myself to only remember bad things that happened to me and not the good.

I am trying to unlearn this way of thinking and remembering.

 

[Meditation guide]

I have PTSD from the pain I went through, physical pain, one time in the hospital for several days. Constant flashbacks.

No such thing exists from the few times of pleasure.

 

[Ghost2211]

It's instinctual for pain to be stronger and more memorable than pleasure. We don't need to focus on pleasure to live, but suffering reminds us what to avoid.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

Very interesting question to pose. Thank you!
I love threads that make me think, and this is one of those threads. Once I think longer about your question, I will try and offer my personal opinion.

Curious to see what other people post, but I don't want any outside influence before I post my own thoughts.

 

[Superdeterminist]

For me, it definitely is. And no, I definitely wouldn't flip that coin.

 

[Leshen]

It is.
And most of the so called "pleasures" are merely avoidance of suffering anyway - eat to stop feeling hungry, drink to stop being thirsty, play a video game to stop being bored etc... it's all worthless.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

I thought about your interesting question and here is my possible guess/idea?

I intentionally haven't read anything contained in your thread - not even the OP - so if somebody else already came up with this idea excuse me I didn't see it before I typed this. I wanted to have my own idea before being influenced by anyone else's.

Do you think possibly concepts involving genetic variation are such that each of us is programmed differently whether we are to have a stronger perception to pain versus a stronger perception for pleasure?

I know with certainty that out of four members of my immediate family, three of us have a stronger perception of pain versus the other family member who has a stronger perception for pleasure.

Just my guess would love to hear other ideas about this?

Your thread title really made me think. Thank you!

 

[voyager]

Good question, good arguments and yet for me I'd have to say it was mostly the blissful pleasure I experienced up until 16 which kept me around for another 27 years despite being miserable for the most part. It's true though, when I was happy the unhappiness wasn't equal to the good, but then again, neither is the good now compared to the bad, and yet these glimpses are one of the main things which keep me here, even though they're no where near as pure/intense as they were when I was healthy.

I also remember my happiest moments and my saddest, and what I can say is that while I was aware that I was enjoying myself I wasn't aware that these were in fact the happiest moments of my life until very much later. With my saddest moments though I pretty much instantly realised that these were in fact the lowest points of my life.

I wouldn't want to flip a coin, but I would be willing to experience both again for five minutes, preferably with the bad first.

 

[Caspers]

Chronic sadness exists in abundance but chronic happiness doesn't exist at all.

Wow that was beautifully written, would you mind if I put it in my quotes I like folder? It's never shared with anyone, I just like interesting sayings

 

[inactive]

Wow that was beautifully written, would you mind if I put it in my quotes I like folder? It's never shared with anyone, I just like interesting sayings

I don't mind at all, haha.

 

[TheQ22]

I'm a firm believer that we have 2 brains - the old brain, the fight or flight brain that rabbits and other lesser mammals have, and our more advanced brain that allows us to think in concepts, and ideas, and to ponder, and to wonder - and that the 2 are in constant conflict for us here, because your old brain reacts to thoughts and can't tell the difference between being worried and a sabretoothed tiger chasing you.

Anyway, I think that old brain has 2 functions mainly - to avoid and move away from pain, and to seek out and experience pleasure.

When you think a bad thought your old brain says "ouh oh, danger - what made this danger go away last time?" "Chocolate cake, or alcohol, or drugs, or whatever" and tells you that you need that now to get rid of that danger.

Of course if it was a sabretooth tiger you'd run away - but you can't run away from thoughts in your head.

So you eat the chocolate cake, or drink the alcohol, or smoke the weed, or whatever - and the thoughts are lost, and your old brain thinks the danger went because of the alcohol, etc

Then you feel shit for doing whatever you did, so the bad feelings come back, so your old brain tells you to do it again - like a devil on one shoulder, and an angel on the other - the devil always wins - because feelings are more powerful than thoughts, and the feelings release adrenalin and cortisol and the rest to MAKE you behave in that way.

We don't think hngry, or think thirsty, or think scared, or think angry, we FEEL hungry, or FEEL thirsty, or FEEL scared, or FEEL angry - anything related to survival we FEEL, but our old brain interprets thoughts as feelings, and generates feelings to deal with that fear/will to survive.

That's my theory, I claim ownership of it, so don't steal it. Or else. You'll FEEL my wrath.

 

[Sinkinshyp]

I'm probably answering in a way that has nothing to do with how you put it. My life is shit.. I was born into it went through it and going through it. I can say I have been through to much pain. I have also experienced total happiness and joy.

I don't hide why I am here. My older son died in a car accident on his way to work. The time he was in my life- 25 years 4 months and 2 days was the most happiness, love, pleasure, light and more than I ever experienced. I was on top of the world and so proud and honored I was his mom. While I did have depression and anxiety during this time I always have.. I was able to keep it in control because my son needed me. The joy of being his mom over rode my painful life I had before he came into it. If you asked my younger me before he came into my life- if I would know love and happiness I would have said no. Since I've always had some level of depression and anxiety during the time he was alive I remembered my painful life prior but it wasn't unbearable. The pride, joy, love happiness over rode the pain I experienced prior to his birth. I will say he is the glue that held me together. While he was here and I was mom pleasure over rode the pain.

Since he died the pain is non stop. Having this new grief inside me it's also brought back all the pain I had prior to his birth. So I am experiencing new unbearable pain with all the pain I used to have. In the almost 3 years he has been gone I experienced a few minutes of happiness- The day I ordered my SN. I could not stop smiling.

I think some are just genetically born wired to experience pain on deeper levels than others. I have studied dogs- especially German Shepherd Dogs. Some of them are born with weak nerves or if they had an aggressive mom they tended to be weak nerved dogs or aggressive. I have quite a few birth defects. I know I have a mutation in 1 gene. You get a copy from mom and a copy from dad- I inherited the same exact mutation from each of my parents. That particular gene has to do with anxiety, depression autism and more. My brother has been through hell as well but he is mentally much stronger than I am. While my first attempt was at 12 and I remember wanting to die as young as 12 he never expressed wanting to- until his wife cheated on him 4 yrs ago. He is an addict and well really got into some heavy drugs at that time. He said he wanted to give up (through prison, being abused by our father, 2 other ex wives he NEVER wanted to give up) but he and his wife fixed things and they're happy. He is also a recovering addict and doing the best he ever has in his life. Having grown up in the same abusive home- I am the weaker of the 2. I suffer more emotional pain and easier than he does.

I think also some has to do with growing up- did we have loving parents friends in school a happy childhood that gave us the skills to find happiness or were we born into abusive homes bullied and not given the skills to find happiness. There are many variables that can contribute to wether we feel more pain or more pleasure.

 

[Amumu]

It's a phenomenon linked with "loss aversion".
Everyone is much more concerned by loss and pain than gain and pleasure.
It's a cognitive biais which makes you focus more on pain than pleasure.

But all in all, most of us feel more pain than pleasure.

 

[Jack'sPain]

I've been thinking about this and it's probably true. One argument against suicide is that "everyone goes through good and bad times". I think that's false.

Firstly some people objectively go through worse things but even if someone claims to have more good than bad in life, the bad things are not symettrical to the good.

Science has even proven than physical/emotional pain lingers on far longer than any positive emotions. Think of the best things in life (eating good food, sex, obtaining money, using drugs). Think about how difficult it is to obtain them and how long they last. Now thing about the bad things (homelessness, disease, rape, torture, poverty, bereavement). Think about how easy those things can happen to anyone and how long their impact can last.

Would you flip a coin which on one side would give you the best pleasure on earth for 5 minutes but if it lands on the other side it gives you the worst pain possible for an equal 5 minutes?

Godamn you had me in the 5 min test thing, sounds right, and scary as we analog it happiness and sadness in general...!

Definitely seems like pain & sadness is more probable, intense, & prevailing
But its all the more reason for a God to please fucking exist & keep them in check & balance for us

 

[settheory]

Depends on how strong the pain and the pleasure is.
But seriously, some probably less ambiguous questions would be "does it tend to me more pain than pleasure in life?" and "is maximal possible pain greater than maximal possible pleasure?". I don't know the answer to any of them but to the latter i'd say that the pain probably is greater.
Speaking of science, in economics there is a notion of "loss aversion" which i think refers to perceived tendency of humans to perceive loss of a good greater than gain of the same-valued good.
And i would definitely not flip that coin.

 

[Homecoming]

The amount of physical pain that I suffer everyday is so unbearable. CTB is the only way to be free from this torture :(

 

[angelus]

I've been thinking about this and it's probably true. One argument against suicide is that "everyone goes through good and bad times". I think that's false.

Firstly some people objectively go through worse things but even if someone claims to have more good than bad in life, the bad things are not symettrical to the good.

Science has even proven than physical/emotional pain lingers on far longer than any positive emotions. Think of the best things in life (eating good food, sex, obtaining money, using drugs). Think about how difficult it is to obtain them and how long they last. Now thing about the bad things (homelessness, disease, rape, torture, poverty, bereavement). Think about how easy those things can happen to anyone and how long their impact can last.

Would you flip a coin which on one side would give you the best pleasure on earth for 5 minutes but if it lands on the other side it gives you the worst pain possible for an equal 5 minutes?

This is very true.... this is why life is not worth to live.

 

[FuneralCry]

It is in my case. Some lives certainly have a lot more pain than others but it depends on luck, some people are disadvantaged right from the start. In this world there is unlimited potential for suffering. I feel like in general, in this world, the amount of negative emotions experienced are a lot more than positive ones. To me any form of enjoyment never lasts long. Pain is also stronger as I think negative experiences are often more likely to stick in our mind more and have an effect on us. I would not want to flip that coin.

 

[Makko]

I would agree to any pain if I could experience just a little bit of pleasure, just to know what that feels like

 

[lugerepair]

David Benatar (antinatalist philosopher) discusses this at length. There is more pain than there is pleasure, and pain is worse than pleasure is good, and most people don't realize it, because of a widespread optimism bias.

 

[Grumpy Bear]

I would not flip the coin. The pain would stay with me for years. Another way to think of it is halving the pain is not equal to double the pleasure. I would argue that halving the pain would have more positive impact than doubling the pleasure.

 

[Worndown]

It is easier to remember pain. That is why is can haunt us for years.

 

[Deleted member 8579]

I will quote something I wrote elsewhere:

If it were possible to objectively rate positive experiences and negative experiences on a scale from 1 to 10, a negative experience of order 7 would have a much bigger impact than a positive experience of the same magnitude.

An example: A couple has a child which dies of an accident at the age of 5. They now might want to try to create a new child in order to compensate for the loss. For the sake of the argument, let us assume that the new child turns out very similar to the deceased child. From a logical point of view, these two events (birth of a child/ death of a child) have the same value, so we should achieve a net neutral, but we all know that the parents will forever mourn the loss of their first child, no matter how much happiness the second one brings them; they will never achieve a "neutral" existence.

There is a reason why negative experiences figure more prominently in our perception than positive experiences. In order to achieve a positive experience, most of the time one has to work/take action/exert effort to reach the goal. Once the positive experience is achieved, no further action, or at least less action, is necessary. It is the inverse problem with negative experiences: one does not have to exert any effort to achieve a negative experience, since negative experiences are not something one would want to achieve in the first place; they merely happen. Once the negative experience occurs, one has to work/take action/exert effort to overcome it/make it go away/resolve the issue. One could argue that these two are equivalent: The absence of a positive experience is a negative experience and the resolution of a negative experience is a positive experience.

Either way, the point is this: Negative experiences induce a need for taking action, whereas positive experiences are preceded by action. While there is usually some kind of intrinsic motivation to exert efforts in order to achieve a positive experience, the motivation to take action to overcome a negative experience are always forced upon one, i.e. extrinsic.

An example: Winning the lottery or receiving a promotion does not necessitate action on one's own part; they might be preceded by efforts, but they do not induce the need for any. On the other hand, losing a lot of money or losing one's job leaves one no choice but to act. Therefore, negative experiences are inherently perceived as more unpleasant and affect us greater than positive experiences.

Here is hotelbeneathground's addendum:

"The negativity bias/effect. Things of a more negative nature have a greater effect on our psychological state than neutral or positive things. Those of our miserable ancestors who paid more attention to the bad/dangerous events around them were more likely to survive.

One more wonderful fact about our brains: they're wired to take the good things in our lives for granted."