Discussion Is it better to exist than to not exist?

[Darkover]

if you don't exist, you don't suffer. And you can't care about happiness either.

when I didn't exist I didn't care about the fact that I didn't exist. When I die I can't be sad about the fact that I'm dead either.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

It's better to not exist than to exist. I can't understand anybody who claims to support the contrary to that

 

[Moniker]

David Benatar, a massive voice for anti-natalism, has some good literature on our relationship with pleasure and suffering. In my opinion, he makes a good case for how bringing people into existence submits them to unnecessary suffering.

 

[Glazed_Orange]

Hard choice, the only benefit to being alive, is the potential for happiness. It's more likely though, that you're gonna suffer. It'd probably be better to not exist.

 

[badtothebone]

I wish I don't exist! I'm trapped in this hell because I have 2 young children that need me even tho I'm out literally out, don't like how I have to live with this pain.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I would rather not exist a trillion times more than exist .

non-existence means no pain , zero suffering, no problems , no bad memories ever .

all the thousands of horrible things in life and this world are absent in non-existence

in life / existence / consciousness there is always the chance of constant unbearable pain while that is not possible in non-existence . That alone makes non-existence superior . but also the 1000's of horrible things like diseases, oppression, old age , extreme pain etc. many of these reasons sum up on top of each other, for example the hard labor and daily suffering only to exist to be under threat of extreme torture all for no reason since life is meaningless suffering.

I hate and fear existence / life / consciousness with every fibre of my being, every single part of evil life and this evil world

nothing matters except avoiding extreme pain. all else is meaningless and no one can convince me to think that anything else matters or that anything else is important in life or this evil world.

This is an evil imposition . no one asked to be here. then you're born and have to feed yourself 3 times a day . all the labor work stress problems to feed that amount of food into this body : just this is unfathomable how everyone thinks this is ok . every animal has to do this continously eat, usually killing other animals to eat . i have to work all day at a job , groceries chores etc to have a few hours per day to do meaningless garbage like youtube

There is however a really good video that shows people say I can take the brazen bull for "this" i really like this i'll be put in the brazen bull if i can do "this" "good" thing . the brazen bull is a metal giant bull that people were put into to be tortured. fires were lit under the bull so that the metal of the bull would get scaldingly hot and slowly burn all the person's skin inside. but after a few minutes the person would say i want out i can't take it no i won't trade that for this unbearable pain. people really don't know how bad that kind of pain is. they think they can take it and that some meaningless garbage including evil life is worth the worst pain. it's not and it's all meaningless garbage . nothing is worth extreme pain.

After Death is non-existence forever, the ultimate bliss , the ultimate peace

I don't think rebirth is possible because your concsciousness is totally anchored only embedded in your brain and body, your consciousness is your brain and body

I have good news to those that say it's better to not exist . i did some research and thinking reading about evolution , brain science books, cell biology books and that and for many other reasons imo after Death is non-existence forever. anyone can figure this out if they read books like that

wow 94% so far say it's better to not exist . i agree . finally i see some humans that i agree with on something. seems like this site is starting to getting back to the way it was in 2018 2019 2020 before the ny times article and you know what else .

The Horror of Suffering

reducing-suffering.org

the video is linked in this reddit thread

 

[zaxxy1810]

Unfortunately, it is highly questionable whether CTB is really a recipe for absolute non-existence, the only thing that is certain is departure from this place and from this dimension of existence. The question of existence is a very complex, philosophical question to which there is no reliable answer.

 

[Darkover]

Unfortunately, it is highly questionable whether CTB is really a recipe for absolute non-existence, the only thing that is certain is departure from this place and from this dimension of existence

your a machine made up of atoms 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 just like a computer except your a biological machine
everything you are exists inside these atoms once you die they fall apart into fragments, how anything of you could possibly survive that
is questionable and near impossible, what we don't understand is how we become a thing in the first place with consciousness it's not something that is transferable it lives in isolation inside these atoms that make you up, maybe being reborn in the future is a possibility inside a new machine, you didn't exist before you where made and won't exist after you die, that's not to say being remade into a new machine isn't a possibility since it already happened once already but it won't be you it would something completely new

 

[zaxxy1810]

your a machine made up of atoms 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 just like a computer except your a biological machine
everything you are exists inside these atoms once you die they fall apart into fragments, how anything of you could possibly survive that
is questionable and near impossible, what we don't understand is how we become a thing in the first place with consciousness it's not something that is transferable it lives in isolation inside these atoms that make you up, maybe being reborn in the future is a possibility inside a new machine, you didn't exist before you where made and won't exist after you die, that's not to say being remade into a new machine isn't a possibility since it already happened once already but it won't be you it would something completely new

Of course, on the one hand, this is absolutely true, but it all boils down to the question of whether we are really just this body composed of atoms, or whether there is some kind of permanent entity within this body that qualitatively continues to exist even after the body ceases to function. The question is rhetorical, there are indications pro et contra, but personally I would not so lightly simplify the conclusions about it. Civilizations have transmitted knowledge about it for millennia, this is a question that has occupied philosophers, metaphysicians, esotericists for centuries. it is still too early for explicit scientific conclusions about this issue. It remains for each of us, in accordance with our own knowledge, experience and education, to empirically and theoretically give the answer for ourselves.

 

[Darkover]

Of course, on the one hand, this is absolutely true, but it all boils down to the question of whether we are really just this body composed of atoms, or whether there is some kind of permanent entity within this body that qualitatively continues to exist even after the body ceases to function. The question is rhetorical, there are indications pro et contra, but personally I would not so lightly simplify the conclusions about it. Civilizations have transmitted knowledge about it for millennia, this is a question that has occupied philosophers, metaphysicians, esotericists for centuries. it is still too early for explicit scientific conclusions about this issue. It remains for each of us, in accordance with our own knowledge, experience and education, to empirically and theoretically give the answer for ourselves.

The question of whether there is something permanent or transcendent within us beyond our physical bodies is indeed one that has engaged thinkers across cultures and epochs.

Philosophically, this question often revolves around concepts of the self, consciousness, and identity. Some traditions and philosophical systems propose the existence of a soul or a fundamental essence that continues after physical death. Others argue for a more materialistic view, suggesting that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain's complex interactions and ceases when the body does.

Scientifically, we have not yet developed conclusive evidence regarding the existence of any such permanent entity or consciousness beyond the physical brain. Research in neuroscience and related fields tends to support the idea that consciousness is closely tied to brain function, although there are still many unknowns.

 

[derpyderpins]

For me, I have no doubt it is a good thing that I came into existence.

On average? All evidence I've seen shows that most (or at least a majority of) people enjoy life more than they suffer in it. Always happy to get contrary sources (beyond personal anecdotes) to reconsider but those haven't been produced.

For any given person? I think it's their right to decide if it would be better to not exist. I can understand why they may not want to exist. If someone can't understand why someone else would choose existence, they must be missing information or acting on incorrect assumptions.

 

[Darkover]

On average? All evidence I've seen shows that most (or at least a majority of) people enjoy life more than they suffer in it. Always happy to get contrary sources (beyond personal anecdotes) to reconsider but those haven't been produced.

well you've got a billion people going hungry every night that's more suffering than there is good for a billion people right there, then there all of history to contend with i am willing to bet on the whole throughout history there's been more suffering than good it's only within the last 200 years that our lives have improved considerably

 

[zaxxy1810]

Питање да ли постоји нешто трајно или трансцендентно у нама изван наших физичких тела је заиста оно које је ангажовало мислиоце широм култура и епоха.

Филозофски, ово питање се често врти око концепта сопства, свести и идентитета. Неке традиције и филозофски системи предлажу постојање душе или фундаменталне есенције која се наставља након физичке смрти. Други се залажу за више материјалистички поглед, сугеришући да је свест ново својство сложених интеракција мозга и да престаје када то учини тело.

Научно, још увек нисмо развили убедљиве доказе о постојању било каквог таквог трајног ентитета или свести изван физичког мозга. Истраживања у неуронауци и сродним областима имају тенденцију да подрже идеју да је свест уско повезана са функцијом мозга, иако још увек има много непознаница.

Тако је. Споменуо сам нека истраживања из домена квантне физике последњих деценија, која ће можда у једном тренутку понудити неке експлицитније одговоре на ова питања. Не знам да ли вам је позната будистичка онтологија стара 2500 година (ово је Хинајана будизам) "носилац терета моралне одговорности" која би у неком смислу била пандан хиндуистичком "атману" или Хришћански концепт "душе". Специфичност овога лежи у томе што се "носилац терета моралне одговорности" не посматра као трајна, непролазна личност, већ само као илузија исте, чија се структура заснива на тзв. кхандас егзистенције (материјално тело, осећање, идеја, изрази воље, свест) које када се уклоне ништа не остаје од личног сопства у смислу у ком га ми разумемо, али ипак постоји "носилац терета моралне одговорности" што је учињено "сврсисходном узрочношћу "у смислу Аристотелове Цауса финалис.

The question of whether there is something permanent or transcendent within us beyond our physical bodies is indeed one that has engaged thinkers across cultures and epochs.

Philosophically, this question often revolves around concepts of the self, consciousness, and identity. Some traditions and philosophical systems propose the existence of a soul or a fundamental essence that continues after physical death. Others argue for a more materialistic view, suggesting that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain's complex interactions and ceases when the body does.

Scientifically, we have not yet developed conclusive evidence regarding the existence of any such permanent entity or consciousness beyond the physical brain. Research in neuroscience and related fields tends to support the idea that consciousness is closely tied to brain function, although there are still many unknowns.

That's right. I mentioned some research from the domain of quantum physics in the last decades, which maybe at some point will offer some more explicit answers to these questions. I don't know if you are familiar with the 2500-year-old Buddhist ontology (this is Hinayana Buddhism) "the bearer of the burden of moral responsibility " which in some sense would be the counterpart of the Hindu "atman" or the Christian concept of "soul". The specificity of this lies in the fact that the "bearer of the burden of moral responsibility" is not seen as a permanent, non-transitory personality, but only as an illusion of the same, whose structure is based on the so-called 5 khandas of existence (material body, feeling, idea, expressions of will, consciousness) which when removed nothing remains of the personal self in the sense in which we understand it, but still there is still the "bearer of the burden of moral responsibility" which is done by "purposive causation "in the sense of Aristotle's Causa finalis.

 

[derpyderpins]

well you've got a billion people going hungry every night that's more suffering than there is good for a billion people right there, then there all of history to contend with i am willing to bet on the whole throughout history there's been more suffering than good it's only within the last 200 years that our lives have improved considerably

Well, I can't say that someone can't both be going hungry and also enjoying life more than they're suffering.

But my takeaway from this point is that we can continue to improve our lives until it's even more overwhelming that existence is preferable. That's a very uplifting point, and makes me feel motivated to make the world around me a little better for the next generation.

 

[maudlinbook]

well you've got a billion people going hungry every night that's more suffering than there is good for a billion people right there, then there all of history to contend with i am willing to bet on the whole throughout history there's been more suffering than good it's only within the last 200 years that our lives have improved considerably

Surprisingly, many of those people also prefer existence to non-existence. And there are also tons of people with all the food and money they could ever want who don't want to exist. I don't think objective QoL has much to do with it.

 

[nobob]

If I had a button to end my life momentarily without any pain, I would press it.

 

[offbalance]

I wonder if preferring existence or not can just be a simple preference, like preferring vanilla ice cream or chocolate. I feel like the world has more bad than good in it and my mind hyper focuses on that. But there are people who can be happy and motivated despite knowing all that. I never really felt inclined to ignore the truth, but that might be a moral reservation on my part, not wanting to ignore the suffering of others even though objectively I don't act any less moral when I do manage to ignore and detach. So we'll see how that goes. Don't even know what the point of this post is, I'm just wondering if it is a preference, how changeable it is. Also brain chemistry probably has a lot to do with it as well. Still though, it just feels hard to ignore the truth

 

[Hotsackage]

I am indifferent

 

[Forever Sleep]

Again, it's largely dependent on beliefs I suppose. Some people probably believe that even in the pre-birth or post-death state, something of us does still exist. It's just that we don't remember it. In which case, how can we actually know? We don't remember what it felt like not to exist. Or rather, not to exist within a human body.

Personally, I'm not convinced in all that but, I don't know. So- it's impossible to comment on a state we don't remember or really know that much about. It's like comparing two entirely different things too. Can anything really be termed 'better' when you can't make that judgement when you don't or never had existed? The only reason you're able to have an opinion on that preference is because you're alive and can think.

We can't make a general rule on it either because there will be people out there who are grateful that they exist. Even if they've had problems in life. Personally speaking though yes, I wish I hadn't been brought into this.

Would it be better to exist as something that doesn't have much of a nervous system or consciousness? Do jelly fish feel pain or think all that much? Apparently not. But- they're alive. They exist. Would it be better if they didn't? Do they particularly care either way? Presumably, they're part of an eco system that would be at least temporarily upset if they all vanished from the earth.

I do find myself fantasizing about how nice the earth would be without any humans on it! I feel like we are one of the few species the planet would be better off without. Give everything else a chance to recover.

 

[Davey40210]

My take on this..

If it was easy in this world to take your life then yes it is better to exist. Because if your existence sucks you can just step out.

But under the current circumstances I am not so sure - it seems pretty hard to CTB.

 

[SoulWhisperer]

I can't find a definite answer to this. If you don't exist is like not even playing a game, if you exist you're taking BOTH the chances of good and bad. Then the rest is all about whether or not you're willing to gamble for more if you start to pile up negative things.

Whether or not it's best to exist or not I say it's up to the individual and their experiences but as universal answer I think it'd be best if no one existed, this way major pain could be prevented. I think major pain is a worse risk compared to what major happiness gives to few.

 

[Darkover]

My take on this..

If it was easy in this world to take your life then yes it is better to exist. Because if your existence sucks you can just step out.

But under the current circumstances I am not so sure - it seems pretty hard to CTB.

i think nothing forever is better than any of this shit

 

[dust-in-the-wind]

I am an older female who chose not to bring any children into this world because it is better to never have existed at all in my opinion.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

For me, I have no doubt it is a good thing that I came into existence.

On average? All evidence I've seen shows that most (or at least a majority of) people enjoy life more than they suffer in it. Always happy to get contrary sources (beyond personal anecdotes) to reconsider but those haven't been produced.

For any given person? I think it's their right to decide if it would be better to not exist. I can understand why they may not want to exist. If someone can't understand why someone else would choose existence, they must be missing information or acting on incorrect assumptions.

I mean in the future isn't it possible you could suffer so much that it'd make it not worth it? How can you be so confident it's a good thing when you haven't lived most of your life yet? The thing is when you are in the worst pain you probably are in no position to even articulate it. Everyone who is saying they're glad they're alive is currently healthy enough to tell you that. They're not lying in a hospice with cancer or a care home with dementia. A female athlete was doused in petrol yesterday and set alight. She has 80% burns, I doubt she's in any position to tell you "I've enjoyed life more than I'm suffering right now"-hopefully she's heavily sedated. Even the normies are hoping she doesn't survive and have to live like that. Nothing in life would make me risk ever ending up like that, even if it's 0.0001% that's too much as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what people are smoking if they think the suffering is remotely worth it, I mean if you're of the opinion "I'm here now might as well make the best of it" I'd agree, but to actively be glad you came into existence where all manner of terrible things can and do happen, nope can't understand that.

 

[derpyderpins]

I mean in the future isn't it possible you could suffer so much that it'd make it not worth it? How can you be so confident it's a good thing when you haven't lived most of your life yet? The thing is when you are in the worst pain you probably are in no position to even articulate it. Everyone who is saying they're glad they're alive is currently healthy enough to tell you that. They're not lying in a hospice with cancer or a care home with dementia. A female athlete was doused in petrol yesterday and set alight. She has 80% burns, I doubt she's in any position to tell you "I've enjoyed life more than I'm suffering right now"-hopefully she's heavily sedated. Even the normies are hoping she doesn't survive and have to live like that. Nothing in life would make me risk ever ending up like that, even if it's 0.0001% that's too much as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what people are smoking if they think the suffering is remotely worth it, I mean if you're of the opinion "I'm here now might as well make the best of it" I'd agree, but to actively be glad you came into existence where all manner of terrible things can and do happen, nope can't understand that.

As for hospice, I advocate for right to die. I'll certainly have it in my will to pull plugs ASAP once I lose autonomy.

As for rare occurrences of extreme suffering, I understand statistics and I'm willing to take the risk. But you know what? I have felt extreme pain. (Mental and physical. I've been very, very sick.). No, I've never been set on fire. I've never had a limb amputated. There are plenty of potential harms I've not specifically felt, but I understand pain generally.

Every day that one of those rare outlier occurrences doesn't happen, the total utility of my life accumulates more and more. This is my one chance to experience life, to experience love. Each night with my love is worth whatever pain might maybe possibly be waiting. I'm going to build up the good rather than living in fear of the bad - particularly the unlikely bad.

I'm not "smoking" anything. I've spent a good deal of time hurting and thinking deeply about existence to reach this point.

 

[Pluto]

 

[doneforlife]

I mean in the future isn't it possible you could suffer so much that it'd make it not worth it? How can you be so confident it's a good thing when you haven't lived most of your life yet? The thing is when you are in the worst pain you probably are in no position to even articulate it. Everyone who is saying they're glad they're alive is currently healthy enough to tell you that. They're not lying in a hospice with cancer or a care home with dementia. A female athlete was doused in petrol yesterday and set alight. She has 80% burns, I doubt she's in any position to tell you "I've enjoyed life more than I'm suffering right now"-hopefully she's heavily sedated. Even the normies are hoping she doesn't survive and have to live like that. Nothing in life would make me risk ever ending up like that, even if it's 0.0001% that's too much as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what people are smoking if they think the suffering is remotely worth it, I mean if you're of the opinion "I'm here now might as well make the best of it" I'd agree, but to actively be glad you came into existence where all manner of terrible things can and do happen, nope can't understand that.

You are right. The worst of possible pain is not worth the best of possible pleasures. But then , everyone doesn't experience the worst or best of both pain/pleasure. So blocking an experience like existence just on the mere premise of possible "bad experiences " would be a terrible idea. Why not give everyone the right to determine how much bad experience they can take up . Let them decide their own thresholds . Make painless, peaceful exit a legal right instead of saying existence is not worth it.

 

[hushpuppi-savastano]

Si tu n'existes pas, tu ne souffres pas. Et tu ne peux pas non plus te soucier du bonheur.

Quand je n'existais pas, je me fichais du fait que je n'existais pas. Quand je mourrai, je ne pourrai pas non plus être triste du fait que je sois mort.

If you're rich, of course it's 1000 times better to exist. But if you're doomed to a life of struggle and suffering, you might as well leave

 

[ForgottenAgain]

Personally? I prefer to have existed as my childhood was happy. I just wish leaving was easier.

Generally? Hard to say, we can't really have data for everyone in the world on whether they prefer to exist or not. It's hard to gauge in absolute terms whether existing is worth it for humanity. Just thinking about people going hungry, wars, etc isn't enough. A lot of people go through absolute hell and still see beauty in reality and want to exist.

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

In life there are two guarantees: Pleasure and pain. When you exist there is a necessity that you experience some level of pain, and some level of pleasure. You derive satisfaction by experiencing pleasure, and experience dissatisfaction via pain.

Whereas with out existence there is no satisfaction needed, as there is no you to feel any satisfaction, and as such there is no need for pleasure, which is neither a good nor bad thing. whereas with a lack of dissatisfaction, and no pain to be experienced, one would argue that this a good thing. Thus no existence is both good (lack of pain) while also being neutral (no need for pleasure).

With life there is good, from the pleasure of life, and bad from the necessity of pain. Thus life can be good (Pleasure) and also bad (Pain).

But the need for pleasure can be negated without exitance, and the pain of life void, without existence, thus rationally, I would from an ethical stand point rather non existence to existence.