Discussion Irrational opinions, perspectives and philosophies

[26mmmm]

Its easy to buy into certain opinions and perspective when the forum is flooded with them.

Im wondering why so many people here don't seem to even understand things from the perspective of the other side.

So many people here are against pro-lifers and the unavailability of suicide, but do they not understand that if suicide was more available it would lead to lots of harm too, and not just good?
The people who are fully ready to die but aren't able to commit suicide for one reason or another are only considering themselves and not others who've got a chance in life, and would commit suicide irrationally if it were easier, when they claim suicide should be more available. That's pretty selfish, unless of course those people wish for suicide to be more available only to those that are really suffering, but that isn't really possible since you can't surely tell who's really suffering and who isn't ( Of course anyone who gets to the point of wanting to commit suicide is in some type of pain, but in some cases those people might be curable without knowing it, or might not actually have the problems they think they do )

The only way suicide could become more available is probably if it were more available to everyone.
It seems like most do actually want it to be more available to everyone tho.

In addition, not everyone who is suicidal is unwilling or unable to commit suicide with the current availablity and ease of it, so those who aren't willing or able to commit suicide and are actually far gone aren't necessarily the majority, which makes it even more selfish.

Also, many people here are convinced the world is a bad place based just on their own experiences, and they enforce this idea onto others.
I get where they are coming from, I myself have also been pushed into this bubble of negativity which messed with my perception of life and led to me having some awful opinions and perspectives, and still does. But just because they've experienced something a certain way doesn't make it true for everyone.

All I wanted to say is that just because some opinions and perspectives are common here doesn't mean they are true. Remember that this forum is filled with miserable people.

 

[Valky]

I do think that you have a good point. Like many people said before, this can really turn into an echo chamber of negativity. But exactly that may also help! It can help give people the feeling that they are not alone and that their feelings are valid, since others also feel bad. Of course, this may lead to amplifying the negative emotions but it can also amplify the positive ones.

Honestly, I'd advise people to check out the chat rooms!! There are a lot more light hearted and humorous conversations going on in there. Sure, there is a doomed chat for those, that just wanna vent but the general chit-chat one is a totally different stories. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes, sometimes I wish outsiders could see those Chatroom and see that it is not all about pro death and encouraging each other to die but comfort and connecting to the people on a whole mother level, lots of advice and encouragement to keep going and to hang on. I love those people there, they are great to talk to. :)
Sorry for the little rant, haha.


You're making it sound a bit like suicide is an easy decision, that doesn't require much thinking and decision making. I agree, especially mental illness can make your life seem a lot worse than it is and others misery may only make it worse, but if that mental illness does not go away, does it really matter how life "really" is. If you can't see the good side of life because of illness/trauma or anything else, is it really worth living, just because others enjoy it?

I really do believe that people should get to make the choice WHEN and HOW they want to die. Yes, this is miserable but because there is simply no other option. Not everyone has the money to travel across the globe to those few countries that allow it. Not everyone has the money to afford euthanasia. Many are too exhausted to go through the evaluation process, especially since requirements are so high. Unless Mental Health services around the globe improve, this sadly has to do.

Yes, this site can certainly take a toll on one's mental health. But so can psych wards (even the "good" kinds). It's all individual and while you are sometimes forced into those places like a psychiatric institution, no one is forcing you to stay here. Every single individual should really think about what effect this page has on them. There is no shame in staying and certainly no shame in leaving.

 

[Life_and_Death]

if suicide was more available it would lead to lots of harm too, and not just good?

the problem is they dont care. they see their pov what they want and thats it.

 

[26mmmm]

I do think that you have a good point. Like many people said before, this can really turn into an echo chamber of negativity. But exactly that may also help! It can help give people the feeling that they are not alone and that their feelings are valid, since others also feel bad. Of course, this may lead to amplifying the negative emotions but it can also amplify the positive ones.

Honestly, I'd advise people to check out the chat rooms!! There are a lot more light hearted and humorous conversations going on in there. Sure, there is a doomed chat for those, that just wanna vent but the general chit-chat one is a totally different stories. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes, sometimes I wish outsiders could see those Chatroom and see that it is not all about pro death and encouraging each other to die but comfort and connecting to the people on a whole mother level, lots of advice and encouragement to keep going and to hang on. I love those people there, they are great to talk to. :)
Sorry for the little rant, haha.


You're making it sound a bit like suicide is an easy decision, that doesn't require much thinking and decision making. I agree, especially mental illness can make your life seem a lot worse than it is and others misery may only make it worse, but if that mental illness does not go away, does it really matter how life "really" is. If you can't see the good side of life because of illness/trauma or anything else, is it really worth living, just because others enjoy it?

I really do believe that people should get to make the choice WHEN and HOW they want to die. Yes, this is miserable but because there is simply no other option. Not everyone has the money to travel across the globe to those few countries that allow it. Not everyone has the money to afford euthanasia. Many are too exhausted to go through the evaluation process, especially since requirements are so high. Unless Mental Health services around the globe improve, this sadly has to do.

Yes, this site can certainly take a toll on one's mental health. But so can psych wards (even the "good" kinds). It's all individual and while you are sometimes forced into those places like a psychiatric institution, no one is forcing you to stay here. Every single individual should really think about what effect this page has on them. There is no shame in staying and certainly no shame in leaving.

I agree with you that this forum helps people in a way but I still feel like being around people with radical opinions and perspectives like these wont really help anyone.
What I do thinks helps people here is realising they aren't alone and also finding comfort in suicide by learning how to do it right.

I also agree that people who are actually suffering and can't overcome their problems should have the option for a painless suicide, but like I said the issue is that you can't really tell who's really far gone and who isn't so the only way for suicide to be more available and easier is probably if it was more available and easy for everyone, so those that are wishing for suicide to be an easier process need to understand that.

 

[Valky]

I agree with you that this forum helps people in a way but I still feel like being around people with radical opinions and perspectives like these wont really help anyone.
What I do thinks helps people here is realising they aren't alone and also finding comfort in suicide by learning how to do it right.

Of course comparing this site to a psych ward is very controversial and not very fitting but as someone who has been there for months, you just kind of find comfort in sharing your pain with others. Like I said, some left because it was just making them feel worse but many stayed and that connection to other patients really, really helped them. Which is exactly why I think that it is so important to be able to make that decision for yourself. This is not a cult, like Scientology where people hunt you down to try to get you back. If you wish to leave then that will be respected.

I also agree that people who are actually suffering and can't overcome their problems should have the option for a painless suicide, but like I said the issue is that you can't really tell who's really far gone and who isn't so the only way for suicide to be more available and easier is probably if it was more available and easy for everyone, so those that are wishing for suicide to be an easier process need to understand that.

Well, that is the problem with mental illness, of course there are always signs but worst case scenario is that someone could still be faking it so you do really have to rely on the patient themselves in that decision. Besides, a long history of trying to recover through medication and different kinds of therapy can help show that a person is really unlikely to improve much anytime soon. So of course, euthanasia should not just be offered to anyone.

 

[26mmmm]

Of course comparing this site to a psych ward is very controversial and not very fitting but as someone who has been there for months, you just kind of find comfort in sharing your pain with others. Like I said, some left because it was just making them feel worse but many stayed and that connection to other patients really, really helped them. Which is exactly why I think that it is so important to be able to make that decision for yourself. This is not a cult, like Scientology where people hunt you down to try to get you back. If you wish to leave then that will be respected.

Well, that is the problem with mental illness, of course there are always signs but worst case scenario is that someone could still be faking it so you do really have to rely on the patient themselves in that decision. Besides, a long history of trying to recover through medication and different kinds of therapy can help show that a person is really unlikely to improve much anytime soon. So of course, euthanasia should not just be offered to anyone.

It might possible to allow a peaceful suicide only to those who really need it, but it would be pretty hard.
When I say someone might not be too far gone I don't mean that they aren't suffering or dont feel this way, but that there is an obvious way out there for them to heal and they just dont know about it, but if if they found out they would want to live.
Of course some might still prefer to end their lives in that situation but that's not everyone.

A history of unsuccessful treatment can definitely help identify that but I don't think its enough, some people might not get the same effect from treatment as others and they might need help in other ways.
Regarding what you said about how it doesn't matter what things are really like if you are blind to it, I think it does matter, since you might be able to heal and fix your perspective on life in one way or another

 

[Valky]

It might possible to allow a peaceful suicide only to those who really need it, but it would be pretty hard.
When I say someone might not be too far gone I don't mean that they aren't suffering or dont feel this way, but that there is an obvious way out there for them to heal and they just dont know about it, but if if they found out they would want to live.
Of course some might still prefer to end their lives in that situation but that's not everyone.

A history of unsuccessful treatment can definitely help identify that but I don't think its enough, some people might not get the same effect from treatment as others and they might need help in other ways.
Regarding what you said about how it doesn't matter what things are really like if you are blind to it, I think it does matter, since you might be able to heal and fix your perspective on life in one way or another

That is very true but it is also important to remember that going through mental illness or other things is very exhausting and tiring, not only mentally but also physically. Sure, many may regain their strength after some time but if you spend years without any highs and only lows, I more than understand if someone is too exhausted to keep trying. After all, the human body can only handle so much.

 

[UsagiDrop]

I can agree with all of these points! Definitely not here to refute them. There was a thread that was essentially asking for opinions on this place, and I remember responding that I felt indifferent. This space, and all the opinions held within it, is what you make of it. Therefore I think it's important for us to treat the opinions, philosophies and ideologies expressed as we do with any other that we would hear out in the wild; which is to say that we should just be listening (reading?) and engaging critically with them to come to our own conclusions.

I do think it's actually really interesting and morbidly refreshing, though, that the popular opinion expressed on this forum is not the positive one. I respect it and I understand that people here are suffering to varying degrees, some of which I could never be able to conceptualize myself. Of course, their worldview is tainted by their negative experiences. And I'm a Negative Nancy myself, my views on my own life are really bleak lol. So I really get it, and I don't want to fight anyone on the opposite side of the fence either. The availability of assisted suicide, the right to a dignified death, the state of the world itself; these are all pretty nuanced topics and I think there's room for respectful discussions from both sides.

But I think the frustration comes about when this inevitably happens, lol:

they enforce this idea onto others.

Nothing should be forced onto others. In my opinion it can be annoying to see people call others who are even a little bit hopeful about life, or conversely contemplative and conflicted about their own death, something to the effect of selfish, stupid and delusional. It's definitely not healthy to push that narrative onto anyone, and I actually think most of the world would agree with that— which, I guess, is exactly the point. It is worth it to note that this is just a reaction to how suicidal people are treated in the world, so if our opinions and worldviews are different, ideally, we should not take theirs personal. To people who don't understand being suicidal, we are the selfish, delusional and pathetic ones for wanting to die, after all.

Like I said, this is probably the only place where the overwhelming opinion is not something positive, but that's to be expected. It's also the last place that people like this have to voice their negative worldviews without much pushback, so they are not going to take that for granted, and they shouldn't! It would be nice, in a perfect world, on a perfect forum full of perfect users, if some people could consider the other side more and not write them off in the same way that society has written us off, but…

Im wondering why so many people here don't seem to even understand things from the perspective of the other side.

The simple truth is that they don't want to. :') And they also don't have to, tbh.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, because the opposing opinions are always valuable to those who want to understand both sides. Thankfully, this place isn't an echo chamber, so we're allowed to have the opposite perspective, too.

 

[26mmmm]

I can agree with all of these points! Definitely not here to refute them. There was a thread that was essentially asking for opinions on this place, and I remember responding that I felt indifferent. This space, and all the opinions held within it, is what you make of it. Therefore I think it's important for us to treat the opinions, philosophies and ideologies expressed as we do with any other that we would hear out in the wild; which is to say that we should just be listening (reading?) and engaging critically with them to come to our own conclusions.

I do think it's actually really interesting and morbidly refreshing, though, that the popular opinion expressed on this forum is not the positive one. I respect it and I understand that people here are suffering to varying degrees, some of which I could never be able to conceptualize myself. Of course, their worldview is tainted by their negative experiences. And I'm a Negative Nancy myself, my views on my own life are really bleak lol. So I really get it, and I don't want to fight anyone on the opposite side of the fence either. The availability of assisted suicide, the right to a dignified death, the state of the world itself; these are all pretty nuanced topics and I think there's room for respectful discussions from both sides.

But I think the frustration comes about when this inevitably happens, lol:

Nothing should be forced onto others. In my opinion it can be annoying to see people call others who are even a little bit hopeful about life, or conversely contemplative and conflicted about their own death, something to the effect of selfish, stupid and delusional. It's definitely not healthy to push that narrative onto anyone, and I actually think most of the world would agree with that— which, I guess, is exactly the point. It is worth it to note that this is just a reaction to how suicidal people are treated in the world, so if our opinions and worldviews are different, ideally, we should not take theirs personal. To people who don't understand being suicidal, we are the selfish, delusional and pathetic ones for wanting to die, after all.

Like I said, this is probably the only place where the overwhelming opinion is not something positive, but that's to be expected. It's also the last place that people like this have to voice their negative worldviews without much pushback, so they are not going to take that for granted, and they shouldn't! It would be nice, in a perfect world, on a perfect forum full of perfect users, if some people could consider the other side more and not write them off in the same way that society has written us off, but…

The simple truth is that they don't want to. :') And they also don't have to, tbh.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, because the opposing opinions are always valuable to those who want to understand both sides. Thankfully, this place isn't an echo chamber, so we're allowed to have the opposite perspective, too.

It's true that no one is forced to believe anything, but given that most people here are mentally ill I'd say it'd be easier for them to be influenced by these perspectives since they are so common here.

There's nothing wrong with the main perspectives in the forum being negative, but what I don't like is that there's alot of people here who complain about not being understood, and might call the other side selfish, while they aren't trying to understand the other side themselves and could be selfish too.

 

[UsagiDrop]

There's nothing wrong with the main perspectives in the forum being negative, but what I don't like is that there's alot of people here who complain about not being understood, and might call the other side selfish, while they aren't trying to understand the other side themselves and could be selfish too.

I don't know how to say this in a way that isn't potentially offensive or off-putting, but that's what mental illness does. Unfortunately, it's actually going to prohibit people from seeing the other side. I learned very quickly that a lot of people here are ill, whether they know it/believe it or not. And since they can't relate to the mainstream thought, they find people who are not like them to be selfish while demanding to be understood. They don't see the irony in that, because they can't. Coupled with the fact that a lot of people here are, for their own reasons, anti-therapy and anti-psychology as well and do not see their condition as one that needs to be "fixed" (as is their right)… yeah, they're probably never going to understand or even want to understand an opposing opinion.

Again, that's just an observation that I'm passing without judgement, but there isn't a nicer way to say that. It's as you said, it's okay that the main perspective on the forum is negative. But I also think that the unfortunate side effect of that is the lack of desire to consider or acknowledge the other side other than to dunk on it. I agree that it can get annoying though, nobody has to like it. And it does concern me that there are people here who are especially vulnerable to being negatively influenced. The sad part is that a lot of those people probably have this entire side of the forum hidden so they might not even see this.

 

[26mmmm]

I don't know how to say this in a way that isn't potentially offensive or off-putting, but that's what mental illness does. Unfortunately, it's actually going to prohibit people from seeing the other side. I learned very quickly that a lot of people here are ill, whether they know it/believe it or not. And since they can't relate to the mainstream thought, they find people who are not like them to be selfish while demanding to be understood. They don't see the irony in that, because they can't. Coupled with the fact that a lot of people here are, for their own reasons, anti-therapy and anti-psychology as well and do not see their condition as one that needs to be "fixed" (as is their right)… yeah, they're probably never going to understand or even want to understand an opposing opinion.

Again, that's just an observation that I'm passing without judgement, but there isn't a nicer way to say that. It's as you said, it's okay that the main perspective on the forum is negative. But I also think that the unfortunate side effect of that is the lack of desire to consider or acknowledge the other side other than to dunk on it. I agree that it can get annoying though, nobody has to like it. And it does concern me that there are people here who are especially vulnerable to being negatively influenced. The sad part is that a lot of those people probably have this entire side of the forum hidden so they might not even see this.

That's true. I guess there's a reason to it, so all I want is for other people to not get sucked into it.

 

[Downdraft]

I'll be as honest as I can.

So many people here are against pro-lifers and the unavailability of suicide, but do they not understand that if suicide was more available it would lead to lots of harm too, and not just good?

First, I want to ask why. Availability doesn't mean cutting recovery and help. It mainly means people will die anyway, less painfully and without potentially compromising others. I've also valued the pain of losing a loved one and how to overcome it, and for many people, while obviously bad, it can't compare to the intensity and desperation of what a suicidal person is going through.

The people who are fully ready to die but aren't able to commit suicide for one reason or another are only considering themselves and not others who've got a chance in life, and would commit suicide irrationally if it were easier, when they claim suicide should be more available.

This is an spectrum and many people want limits based on multiple factors. The people who want total accessibility without questions are rare, and most used as strawman.

This said, I'll go against it and ask: why should people endure something they don't want because it may or may not improve? This argument is used by those who oppose suicide all the time, but sometimes the circumstances seem unacceptable regardless of the future, and I see no problem when someone made their mind and examined their future. Also, what is exactly better "enough"? Many circumstances cause long-lasting mental problems even when suicidality disappears, so this is is, IMO, a way to point with the finger who is "sane enough" to apply for the right to die.

That's pretty selfish, unless of course those people wish for suicide to be more available only to those that are really suffering, but that isn't really possible since you can't surely tell who's really suffering and who isn't ( Of course anyone who gets to the point of wanting to commit suicide is in some type of pain, but in some cases those people might be curable without knowing it, or might not actually have the problems they think they do )

Still, not a good base to restrict methods. The alternative implies further pain on extremely vulnerable people.

The only way suicide could become more available is probably if it were more available to everyone.
It seems like most do actually want it to be more available to everyone tho.

Yes, because current methods go and against human dignity. No one should have to die like this, specially after having went through so much.

In addition, not everyone who is suicidal is unwilling or unable to commit suicide with the current availablity and ease of it, so those who aren't willing or able to commit suicide and are actually far gone aren't necessarily the majority, which makes it even more selfish.

A big part are unwilling to. A very small percentage of those who want to die actually attempt it, leave alone succeeding.

But just because they've experienced something a certain way doesn't make it true for everyone.

All I wanted to say is that just because some opinions and perspectives are common here doesn't mean they are true. Remember that this forum is filled with miserable people.

This is true. We agree. However, I'm not suicidal, I genuinely believe on what I said and that's why I'm here. I also think when people don't challenge common ideas, discussion gets endangered, and it's fine to go against the topic sometimes.

 

[26mmmm]

First, I want to ask why. Availability doesn't mean cutting recovery and help. It mainly means people will die anyway, less painfully and without potentially compromising others. I've also valued the pain of losing a loved one and how to overcome it, and for many people, while obviously bad, it can't compare to the intensity and desperation of what a suicidal person is going through.

If it were more available and easier to everyone, and not just to those suffering, many people would commit suicide irrationally, since it wont be as scary. Im talking specifically about people who do have a way out and would choose to keep on living if they knew how to.

This said, I'll go against it and ask: why should people endure something they don't want because it may or may not improve? This argument is used by those who oppose suicide all the time, but sometimes the circumstances seem unacceptable regardless of the future, and I see no problem when someone made their mind and examined their future. Also, what is exactly better "enough"? Many circumstances cause long-lasting mental problems even when suicidality disappears, so this is is, IMO, a way to point with the finger who is "sane enough" to apply for the right to die.

Like I said im talking specifically about people who don't see a way out but would choose to keep on living if they do.

Still, not a good base to restrict methods. The alternative implies further pain on extremely vulnerable people.

One side has to lose and I feel like it'd cause more harm if people were to commit suicide irrationally because it was easy and available rather than if people are not be able to commit suicide at ease or at peace, but are still able to commit suicide.

Yes, because current methods go and against human dignity. No one should have to die like this, specially after having went through so much.

There are plenty of methods that don't seem too bad to me, even some that are gruesome aren't really painful at all.
I think people being fixated on having a peaceful death make the process way harder on themselves. Death itself is whats peaceful, in my eyes the act of dying doesn't matter.

This is true. We agree. However, I'm not suicidal, I genuinely believe on what I said and that's why I'm here. I also think when people don't challenge common ideas, discussion gets endangered, and it's fine to go against the topic sometimes.

Most people here are depressed, suicidal, miserable and delusional.

 

[Downdraft]

If it were more available and easier to everyone, and not just to those suffering, many people would commit suicide irrationally, since it wont be as scary. Im talking specifically about people who do have a way out and would choose to keep on living if they knew how to.

As I said, many people want limits. However, I also think no one is morally obliged to live if they know there are solutions but don't want them. Finally, as I said, the bad consequences for those who are on the worst are very strong.

Like I said im talking specifically about people who don't see a way out but would choose to keep on living if they do.

This is why I'm pro-recovery whenever it's possible. I don't think easier access and better mental health systems are incompatible.

There are plenty of methods that don't seem too bad to me, even some that are gruesome aren't really painful at all.

You forget the mental factor. Even the most peaceful way is one of the hardest things to do for a person. Survival instinct doesn't feel good at all, to the point most people suffer less just carrying on. This kinda goes against impulsivity because, well, I don't see anyone trying it without a huge history.

I think people being fixated on having a peaceful death make the process way harder on themselves. Death itself is whats peaceful, in my eyes the act of dying doesn't matter.

This is a bit insensitive imo. It sounds like "why do you care, you'll be dead". That, and what I said about it currently being not human. People probably can die like animals, but should they really have to?

Most people here are depressed, suicidal, miserable and delusional.

Most people here are understandably traumatized and deserve empathy, not judgement. If expressing adverse opinions helps them in any way, let it be. I haven't see anyone actively encouraging anyone yet, but I'm new.

 

[MrShino]

I think you have several good points.

1) Suicide shouldn't be too easy. I agree. Too many would have done it due to life situations that would improve just given the time or other reasons that perhaps shouldn't result in suicide. It should take time and effort, but it shouldn't be so difficult to obtain peaceful measures as it is now. It leaves many people in extreme torment and unable to find a peaceful and good way out. Objectively speaking, I think it should be available to those who really need it though, but that it had to be regulated somehow.

2) I think we should strive for a balanced view as you say. Even if we are pro-choice, we must understand the objectives of those against it. None of us wanted to get in this situation, however, we should admit that life has value for many people and for them it is difficult for them to understand how it could not.

3) Since many here have some very negative life experiences, many people here tend to form the idea that life is entirely bad and full of meaningless suffering. We overly emphasize that aspect of life. Yes, there is alot of bad stuff in the world, none would disagree, but there are also alot of beautiful and good things. We should be aware that our subjective idea of the world is not the whole truth, and especially when we have formed lenses that view it all in a negative light over the years. By having such state of mind I think we oftentimes also block out the good, because we focus too much on the bad. Life in this world is also astonishingly good and beautiful, it's not just all bad - even if it seems like that sometimes.

 

[cryone]

I think most people do consider those factors, they just don't think they're very relevant in the grand scheme of things, lmao. which imo, they aren't. you and I weren't given the choice to be born, so its absurd that we aren't given the choice to die. in the end, we deserve the ability to dictate our lives. this to me comes first over any of the potential abuses due to legalized euthanasia or other forms of assisted suicide.

n with your statement:

"Also, many people here are convinced the world is a bad place based just on their own experiences, and they enforce this idea onto others."


i think yes, this is true. but consider that every pro lifer is doing the same thing in reverse--they are convincing everyone that the world is a good place. n its to a much higher extreme where they put you in mental facilities if you disagree n openly mention thoughts abt killing yourself. so, i dont think we are anywhere close to being ignorant ones.

 

[Abandoned Character]

Naturally, many people here have a lot of anger. It is important to understand the mental and emotional space many people are coming from. In that respect, I personally let it be. People are allowed to be angry at the world and blame whatever they wish. You will not make any progress is changing their minds if they are not interested in that possibility. Rationally speaking, I wrestle with the idea of a 5 year old using a suicide pod. No one has yet to answer my question of what the minimum age they would be okay with for one to legally commit suicide. I think therein lies an interesting discussion about what is rational.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think the majority of people on here would agree that assisted suicide should be introduced but, that it would need highly regulating. I think most people recognise that it is possible for people to suicide impulsively or because they have become so utterly stuck in negative thought patterns- due to eg. depression. For this reason, lots of users promote ideas like: age restrictions, a thorough assessment and 6 month or longer waiting period, in which time the person is offered support.

I expect the members you are talking about here- and one member in particular are promortalists. They see existence as the epitomy of evil. According to them- everyone is or, will suffer at some stage so- to them- death does look like the best option for everyone. In fact- to their mind, I expect- the sooner the better. Save that poor sole any possibility of suffering.

So- no- they simply aren't willing to view things from another viewpoint because they see that viewpoint as delluded- toxic positivity etc. I'd argue that they are just as rigid in their way of thinking as the most hardcore pro-life people are when trying to deny the right to die from anyone.

That is something I'd like to highlight though. Even our most hardcore promortalists aren't calling for mass genocide! (Only one or two would like that.) They are just so desperate to get out, I agree- they don't seem to care what collateral damage it would do. (Although, like I said, with the attitude that life is evil, suicide simply can't be harmful to them.) But- they simply don't have the power to influence other people's lives (and deaths.)

Pro-lifers on the other hand do have direct control over all our lives. Maybe some of that is 'for our own good'. Like I say- I'm sure it is possible for someone to CTB impulsively. So- it kind of stands to reason- linger about on a bridge and climb over the railings in daylight- someone will likely try to stop you. You'll likely be sectioned and taken off to the psyche ward. Should you be forced to take drugs though? Should they be able to keep you there? Should terminally ill people who are suffering terribly and want to die themselves be kept here for however many weeks or months they have left because other people don't think we should be able to take our own lives?

I'd say that yes- promortalist ideas can seem pretty extreme and personally, I also think it's good to question them. This site already has an (undeserved) reputation as some kind of death cult! I think it's good to show that the majority of us are in fact, more moderate thinkers who believe in pro-choice rather than being pro-death. Still- in terms of influence- pro-life people control all our lives and restrict our decision making- so that's where a lot of resentment is I think.

I agree though- practicality wise, I think it's plain ludicrous to suggest that assisted suicide should become available to all, minors included, no questions asked. It wouldn't last 5 minutes before angry parents would be protesting everywhere! Sometimes, I think they just have this fantasy that they'll get to the front of the queue, swig their nembutal and be out of here while the rest of the world reverses the policy and we all go back to 'normal'. If you read some of their posts- no- they're not bothered about what happens to everyone else. They're not even bothered about the effect it would have on their own families- they apply cold logic. They won't be here to see it. I'd say that's only the tiniest minority of people who think like that though. Plenty of us think about things from a variety of perspectives.

 

[26mmmm]

I think the majority of people on here would agree that assisted suicide should be introduced but, that it would need highly regulating. I think most people recognise that it is possible for people to suicide impulsively or because they have become so utterly stuck in negative thought patterns- due to eg. depression. For this reason, lots of users promote ideas like: age restrictions, a thorough assessment and 6 month or longer waiting period, in which time the person is offered support.

I expect the members you are talking about here- and one member in particular are promortalists. They see existence as the epitomy of evil. According to them- everyone is or, will suffer at some stage so- to them- death does look like the best option for everyone. In fact- to their mind, I expect- the sooner the better. Save that poor sole any possibility of suffering.

So- no- they simply aren't willing to view things from another viewpoint because they see that viewpoint as delluded- toxic positivity etc. I'd argue that they are just as rigid in their way of thinking as the most hardcore pro-life people are when trying to deny the right to die from anyone.

That is something I'd like to highlight though. Even our most hardcore promortalists aren't calling for mass genocide! (Only one or two would like that.) They are just so desperate to get out, I agree- they don't seem to care what collateral damage it would do. (Although, like I said, with the attitude that life is evil, suicide simply can't be harmful to them.) But- they simply don't have the power to influence other people's lives (and deaths.)

Pro-lifers on the other hand do have direct control over all our lives. Maybe some of that is 'for our own good'. Like I say- I'm sure it is possible for someone to CTB impulsively. So- it kind of stands to reason- linger about on a bridge and climb over the railings in daylight- someone will likely try to stop you. You'll likely be sectioned and taken off to the psyche ward. Should you be forced to take drugs though? Should they be able to keep you there? Should terminally ill people who are suffering terribly and want to die themselves be kept here for however many weeks or months they have left because other people don't think we should be able to take our own lives?

I'd say that yes- promortalist ideas can seem pretty extreme and personally, I also think it's good to question them. This site already has an (undeserved) reputation as some kind of death cult! I think it's good to show that the majority of us are in fact, more moderate thinkers who believe in pro-choice rather than being pro-death. Still- in terms of influence- pro-life people control all our lives and restrict our decision making- so that's where a lot of resentment is I think.

I agree though- practicality wise, I think it's plain ludicrous to suggest that assisted suicide should become available to all, minors included, no questions asked. It wouldn't last 5 minutes before angry parents would be protesting everywhere! Sometimes, I think they just have this fantasy that they'll get to the front of the queue, swig their nembutal and be out of here while the rest of the world reverses the policy and we all go back to 'normal'. If you read some of their posts- no- they're not bothered about what happens to everyone else. They're not even bothered about the effect it would have on their own families- they apply cold logic. They won't be here to see it. I'd say that's only the tiniest minority of people who think like that though. Plenty of us think about things from a variety of perspectives.

I just wanted to sort of warn others since those opinions are so common here, I know those that already share those opinions wont care.
I agree that a good amount of pro-lifers might be extremists, but im not talking about those.
I think the reputation of this site is pretty deserved since a good amount, even if not the majority, share the same delusional opinions and try to enforce them onto others.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, im still forming my opinions so correct me if im wrong.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I just wanted to sort of warn others since those opinions are so common here, I know those that already share those opinions wont care.
I agree that a good amount of pro-lifers might be extremists, but im not talking about those.
I think the reputation of this site is pretty deserved since a good amount, even if not the majority, share the same delusional opinions and try to enforce them onto others.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, im still forming my opinions so correct me if im wrong.

I'd disagree that it's the majority and I'd disagree that they 'enforce' their ideas on others. Yes, they can be negative and agree entirely with how shit everything is. I don't think many people try to sway others opinions though. Getting annoyed that a forum isn't as negative as you'd like it isn't quite the same as trying to change other people's minds.

I honestly don't know if there are very impressionable people here. I get the impression most people have fairly clear ideas before they join. The amount of disagreements here suggests to me people have their own clear ideas on things.

Where I do share your concern is- I don't know how good it is for anyone to be around primarily pessimism all the time. Especially young people who are still developing their own opinions on life. But honestly, to some extent, I think it does people a diservice to 'warn' them of being exposed to certain opinions. It assumes they are so vulnerable/ gullible that they won't question what they're looking at. I'd say most of us are here because we question what we're looking at!

 

[26mmmm]

I'd disagree that it's the majority and I'd disagree that they 'enforce' their ideas on others. Yes, they can be negative and agree entirely with how shit everything is. I don't think many people try to sway others opinions though. Getting annoyed that a forum isn't as negative as you'd like it isn't quite the same as trying to change other people's minds.

I honestly don't know if there are very impressionable people here. I get the impression most people have fairly clear ideas before they join. The amount of disagreements here suggests to me people have their own clear ideas on things.

Where I do share your concern is- I don't know how good it is for anyone to be around primarily pessimism all the time. Especially young people who are still developing their own opinions on life. But honestly, to some extent, I think it does people a diservice to 'warn' them of being exposed to certain opinions. It assumes they are so vulnerable/ gullible that they won't question what they're looking at. I'd say most of us are here because we question what we're looking at!

Thats true. I guess I didn't mean to warn but just to rant about it.
By enforce I dont mean force, I just didn't have a better word, I mean constantly share their opinion, and when you're surrounded by certain things its pretty easy to fall into those rabbit holes

 

[Slow_Farewell]

Brave post, good for you.
Yeah, i agree with the points you made, and i think, at the end of it, @UsagiDrop -san's comment's makes sense.

The simple truth is that they don't want to

and yeah, if you look at the posts, there's a lot, and i mean a LOT, of posts that certainly support what you're trying to say.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thats true. I guess I didn't mean to warn but just to rant about it.
By enforce I dont mean force, I just didn't have a better word, I mean constantly share their opinion, and when you're surrounded by certain things its pretty easy to fall into those rabbit holes

Yeah, that's a fair point. It's hard to judge how all of us are influenced by external stimuli. This place is kind of addictive in a way too.

I suppose I still get the impression that the majority of people kind of know inside where they are on their CTB journey though. Some people come here and realise it's passive ideation they are experiencing. I've known people leave or move here to recovery because they felt it wasn't doing them any good to be around the constant pessimism. I think it's very important for all of us to analyse what effect things are having on us. That's why I left all my social media. It was making me feel worse!

Still- there's the issue of free speech too. There aren't that many places where we can be so honest about how we're feeling freely. Without being banned, shouted down, given a bunch of ludicrous platitudes or even locked up!

I suspect a lot of people utilise the 'ignore' feature if particular attitudes offend them. I've found that a better tactic. I used to try and engage in civil disagreements but- they aren't interested in doing that I realise- which is fair- they don't have to. So, that seems the better thing to do.

 

[dragonofenvy]

Also, many people here are convinced the world is a bad place based just on their own experiences, and they enforce this idea onto others.

The world is a bad place for some people. The bad world that some people experience is subjectively, good for some people. Some people are born, or forced into poverty, slavery, forced to be a soldier (see Eritrea), etc. and this is a very, very high segment of the population that are experiencing this. Yet, they are able to find reasons to keep continuing. So perhaps an argument can be made that our minds reacted differently or that we can't find the thing that makes the pain worth it (I like this idea better).

If you ask a normal, average everyday person if the world is a bad place, they will definitely point out a lot of pieces of the world that is fundamentally bad. Their world, the world they have actual influence in, is not bad since they clearly are happy.

So many people here are against pro-lifers and the unavailability of suicide, but do they not understand that if suicide was more available it would lead to lots of harm too, and not just good?

I'm gonna use political arguments as an analogy. So what happens there is that one side will start arguing with the other and simply say that they're wrong and berate the person for being wrong and attempt to prove them wrong. They're not interested in the other's perspective, just proving them wrong. When you're treated like this over, and over again you yourself become uninterested in understanding the other side. You do the exact same thing and the cycle of abuse continues. Most people on this forum feel misunderstood, hence why they don't want the other opinion because they have always felt attacked by them. Here, you can have your dark thoughts about the world and they'll be validated. This is a bad and good thing at the same time. I don't currently feel like getting into why at this moment because I'll start going into one of my really long rambling posts again like this one already is.

I think if one person and/or the other from the pro-life pro-choice (pro-death, pro-mortalist, whatever) decide to talk and try to understand one another, they'd find real quickly that they can agree on a lot of things and that the other side isn't as bad as they think. But, idk that's just how it's worked for me for some topics. I'm not saying I'm in the middle of everything, I just pretend I am.

 

[Argo]

I do think irrational suicide is possible, or suicide for bad reasons. You can do anything for bad reasons. I think the core issue this post is trying to address is just valuing the truth. That's the reason behind "considering the other side", it implies we want to be in touch with reality. That's good in general but it seems important if you're trying to recover in a meaningful way.

It's true that people don't find themselves on a website like this if they lead happy lives, but that doesn't mean that peoples negative views must be a result of their bias. It's possible that having a bad life exposes you to what's true, too. So again, the question really is just what is true?

I don't think it matters for the context of recovery either. This could be a world that's far worse than what anyone is trying to describe, and it would still make sense to try to improve things. It wouldn't mean there's just one path of maximum misery-- there have to be options towards a better life even in a very bad world, for at least some people. Those are not mutually exclusive, but we have a tendency of forming very simple narratives lacking nuance, because they're less taxing psychologically. "If world good, then improving life = good" "If world bad , then improving life = worthless" Stuff like that.

Ultimately I think the kind of mental health worth wanting, will be found if we fully embrace what's true, no matter how much it confirms what we want to believe or how much it leads us to something we're scared of.

 

[Downdraft]

It's true that people don't find themselves on a website like this if they lead happy lives

You are wrong, some people is just fed up with the popular opinion about suicide and wants to have some freedom of speech.

 

[Argo]

You are wrong, some people is just fed up with the popular opinion about suicide and wants to have some freedom of speech.

I'm wrong that people... do find themselves on a suicide website by leading happy lives? People clearly get irritated by views that seem extreme to them, but what does your sentence have to do with what I wrote?

 

[Downdraft]

I'm wrong that people... do find themselves on a suicide website by leading happy lives?

Yes, because as I said, believing in the right to die doesn't make you suicidal or even depressed.

but what does your sentence have to do with what I wrote?

You should be happy, it's good for you. You said people negative views aren't always caused by their biases. What better example than mentally fine people who just agree on said views?

 

[Argo]

Yes, because as I said, believing in the right to die doesn't make you suicidal or even depressed.

If what you're trying to say is "It's possible to sign up for an account on a suicide website while being happy, just to support/be interested in the right to die" then that is such a marginal point to make that it's weird to be argumentative about it. Overwhelmingly, people come here because they had bad lives.

You should be happy, it's good for you. You said people negative views aren't always caused by their biases. What better example than mentally fine people who just agree on said views?

I don't distinguish someone's happiness and their being in touch with reality-- so if someone is "mentally healthy", to me that doesn't qualify a view any more than someone being "mentally unhealthy" disqualifies a view they hold. The only thing that qualifies a view for me, are if the actual reasons for that view make sense.