Help Infrared lasers for depression - research shows results - science/laser query

[LittleJem]

Just found two papers that say infrared lasers can help depression. The results in the paper are stellar.

Unfortunately there is only one of the machines in the world that is specially designed for the laser to penetrate the skull. F@&kers. Why cand

Can anyone more sciencey look into this? Are there any use at home devices that could work? There is one device where you put the lasers up your nose. Would that reach the correct part of your brain.?
Home devices use leds which don't penetrate deep enough, but there are some lasers out there. They have to be infrared not red light.

 

[jakaranda3]

link?

 

[NeverGoodEnuff]

Infrared Laser Treatment of TBI, PTSD, and Depression: An Expert Perspective - Psychiatry Advisor

Can mere light become a revolutionary new treatment for traumatic brain injury, posttraumatic stress disorder, depression, stroke, Parkinson disease, and Alzheimer disease?

www.psychiatryadvisor.com

Is this what you are referring to? I have some doubts, if this is it.

1. Some of the articles are written by people who work at (own?) laser surgery centers. Follow the money.

2. The test samples were very small (12 +/- test subjects). In samples that small, I wonder if those test subjects were somehow related to the researchers.

3. The research was not published in a peer reviewed journal (they state the research is "unpublished")..

4. The chart shows the "improvements" did not last for some.

How much of what they reported was the placebo effect, which is generally about 30%.

I confess that I read these types of reports with a huge dose of skepticism and cynicism and I went through it quickly. I also don't trust the covid vaccinations, yet. My own personal full disclosure. I am a BSN, RN and have read my share of research.

Edit to add: Words like "revolutionary" are red lights.

 

[Goodbye710]

I build my own and have spent thousands on lasers as well as built my own at home rTms (strong pulsating magnet).

I see you've used rtms before. Personally, the pulsating magnet rtms is more effective in my experience.

To replicate benefits for lasers, you can buy infrared led flood light and a power source for it on ebay or similar. They use them on cctv (security camerasj). They are cheap. Just don't use too long and don't look at the light.

The laser would be more effective but led is pretty close.

A better option instead of shining laser or led at your head and you're more likely to use is laser blood irradiation. It's a watch device you put on your wrist for an hour. They go for $30 - $200 on ebay. I have the cheap and expensive ones. You won't see results for a couple months or 6 months of constant use but it's easier to livewith than shinning lasers or led at your head. Justgetting thelaser light into your blood can be very helpful. Healthy blood makes the body a lot healthier including mental health.

The watch laser devices many have an attachment to put in the nose. It's for getting laser light in your blood for laser blood irradiation. It's the same as putting it on your wrist. Just works a bit faster. Putting it in your nose won't get to your brain.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

What about building lasers that can end your depression by disintegrating you instantly if you stand in its path? That would be sure to end my depression by ending my life.

That's honestly what I thought this was gonna be about when I clicked on this thread.

 

[MindFrog]

I dont know man, that seems fake. Infrared rays are not strong enough to change the dna transcription and activate growth factor ( as said on the article).

Those can only pass through the body with no effect on the atoms ( like rf rays). I dont think, It'll be strong enough to change your emotional state. This is why its considered non-ionizing radiation. All it can do is generate heat (in higher levels) which will only burn or blind you.

 

[signifying nothing]

I prefer to consider something more manageable for the everyday person:
Can sitting in a sauna ease depression?

 

[Mentalmick]

Better off with a phaser.

 

[LittleJem]

Infrared Laser Treatment of TBI, PTSD, and Depression: An Expert Perspective - Psychiatry Advisor

Can mere light become a revolutionary new treatment for traumatic brain injury, posttraumatic stress disorder, depression, stroke, Parkinson disease, and Alzheimer disease?

www.psychiatryadvisor.com

Is this what you are referring to? I have some doubts, if this is it.

1. Some of the articles are written by people who work at (own?) laser surgery centers. Follow the money.

2. The test samples were very small (12 +/- test subjects). In samples that small, I wonder if those test subjects were somehow related to the researchers.

3. The research was not published in a peer reviewed journal (they state the research is "unpublished")..

4. The chart shows the "improvements" did not last for some.

How much of what they reported was the placebo effect, which is generally about 30%.

I confess that I read these types of reports with a huge dose of skepticism and cynicism and I went through it quickly. I also don't trust the covid vaccinations, yet. My own personal full disclosure. I am a BSN, RN and have read my share of research.

Edit to add: Words like "revolutionary" are red lights.

Yes, it was that paper, but I have found other ones too for you to challenge!

Here is one:

Psychological Benefits 2 and 4 weeks After a Single Treatment with Near Infrared Light to the Forehead: A Pilot Study of 10 Patients with Major Depression and Anxiety

dash.harvard.edu

What about building lasers that can end your depression by disintegrating you instantly if you stand in its path? That would be sure to end my depression by ending my life.

That's honestly what I thought this was gonna be about when I clicked on this thread.

Hi, I'm in! Hell yes. Every day is torment. I'm just clutching at infrared straws
The Harvard study says 'significant reduction' in depression scores.
I just don't know what infrared light to try... will share any further research
They mention some devices in the Harvard study. I will look into them and post them later today. The Harvard study used LEDs and not lasers.

I prefer to consider something more manageable for the everyday person:
Can sitting in a sauna ease depression?

Cognitive and Mental Health Benefits

Discover the important cognitive and mental health benefits of infrared sauna therapy in this definitive article.

www.hightechhealth.com

This is the Harvard paper in full:

Near-Infrared Transcranial Radiation for Major Depressive Disorder: Proof of Concept Study

Transcranial near-infrared radiation (NIR) is an innovative treatment for major depressive disorder (MDD), but clinical evidence for its efficacy is limited. Our objective was to investigate the tolerability and efficacy of NIR in patients with MDD. We conducted a proof of concept, prospective...

www.hindawi.com

 

[NeverGoodEnuff]

I hope this works and becomes a valid, common treatment.

I do wonder if part of the results are because participating in something like this makes some feel better because : 1) you are forced to go out on a regular basis; 2) you have contact with people who are trying to help you; 3) it is a positive action you are taking and restores a bit of hope for you; and 4) you want it to work. No matter. I am a firm believer in do what works for you!

Best wishes!

 

[LittleJem]

Multi-Watt Near-Infrared Phototherapy for the Treatment of Comorbid Depression: An Open-Label Single-Arm Study

The treatment of depression has been hampered by low efficacy of antidepressant medications and safety concerns with alternative modalities. Recent work demonstrated that multi-Watt transcranial near-infrared light therapy (NILT) can effectively treat ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DocNo]

What about building lasers that can end your depression by disintegrating you instantly if you stand in its path? That would be sure to end my depression by ending my life.

That's honestly what I thought this was gonna be about when I clicked on this thread.

i prefer romulan or klingon disruptors ^^

while being close to ctb i also sometimes thought it would be nice to have a lightsaber to easily decapitate myself.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

i prefer romulan or klingon disruptors ^^

while being close to ctb i also sometimes thought it would be nice to have a lightsaber to easily decapitate myself.

I always thought jamming a lightsaber through your mouth like one would a gun would also be quite effective.

 

[LittleJem]

I love that this thread has led to jokes!

Here is an expensive machine I found: https://vielight.com/technology/ They have some research links on their website. While it is pricey, they have a money-back offer if you are not satisfied. There are also lots of infrared led machines, there are laser machines to stimulate hair growth which maybe you could put over your forehead instead. There are also laser acupuncture pens. I'm going to keep up the research/wild goose chase.

Oh, in London England I have found one clinic offering treatment. It's called photomodubiolation. They are claiming on their website it helps depression.

I am trying everything in desperation, as ever. At some point this year I will give up.

 

[Goodbye710]

I use to be a heavily involved in this field over 10 years ago. I spent many years and have many expensive devices. Works for many neurological disorders

I posted info earlier on this thread.

Yes, infrared will penetrate the skull. Yes it does help. You have to use often.

Again, rtms is better but you can buy a laser blood irradiation device. Since you've used rtms before you can get an understanding how effective it would be.

High Blood Pressure Cholesterol Cerebral Thrombosis New LLLT Laser Therapy Watch | eBay

Low level laser irradiation, non-invasive, no side effect, no cross infection, pure green physiotherapy. High blood viscosity, cerebral thrombosis, stroke, sudden death. The inside of the left wrist wear products,nasal cavity laser head can be inserted into a nasal cavity.

www.ebay.com

Hope this helps

 

[LittleJem]

I hope this works and becomes a valid, common treatment.

I do wonder if part of the results are because participating in something like this makes some feel better because : 1) you are forced to go out on a regular basis; 2) you have contact with people who are trying to help you; 3) it is a positive action you are taking and restores a bit of hope for you; and 4) you want it to work. No matter. I am a firm believer in do what works for you!

Best wishes!

I use to be a heavily involved in this field over 10 years ago. I spent many years and have many expensive devices. Works for many neurological disorders

I posted info earlier on this thread.

Yes, infrared will penetrate the skull. Yes it does help. You have to use often.

Again, rtms is better but you can buy a laser blood irradiation device. Since you've used rtms before you can get an understanding how effective it would be.

High Blood Pressure Cholesterol Cerebral Thrombosis New LLLT Laser Therapy Watch | eBay

Low level laser irradiation, non-invasive, no side effect, no cross infection, pure green physiotherapy. High blood viscosity, cerebral thrombosis, stroke, sudden death. The inside of the left wrist wear products,nasal cavity laser head can be inserted into a nasal cavity.

www.ebay.com

Hope this helps

Thank you - yes that is really helpful. Your ebay link was really helpful - and I actually found a handheld laser which is 808nm. Apparently, the wattage is also important. I don't really understand about wattage. The device I found is each laser has 150mW on 808nm. It says the total power is 510mW, but maybe that's if you use all the power at once?

In the research paper they used 'multi-Watt NILT' - what is that? And 810/980 nm at 8-15 W.

What's the difference between the wattage, and is the 808 nm enough?

Thank you again for the information. Here is the link to the device I found. While the watch idea is great (and it says it helps brain health) I definitely want one I can point at my forehead!

NEW Portable LLLT Cold Laser Therapy Medical Device for Body Pain Relief at Home | eBay

Proven results for pain relief, inflammation, soft tissue, and skin injury therapy. Natural healing, non-invasive, no side effects and no cross infection. Low-Level Cold Laser Therapy 1x Pain relief low-level cold laser device.

www.ebay.com

 

[LittleJem]

So here are all of the research papers I found. I have found a home-use laser at 210 mW, but don't know if that is close enough to the 250mW used in the study to have the same efficacy? Any thoughts much appreciated!!!

A bit of background info: Over 2000 papers have been published on the applications of infrared light to medicine on PubMed. They have used it for traumatic brain injury, stroke and more. It has good results in mice, and some in humans for depression. There is some link to NASA and photosynthesis in space which I have forgotten but is interesting. Basically, the main paper for lasers for depression suggests 810 nm, 250mW/cm2....There are a lot of devices at 810nm, but the wattage is harder to match. This paper gives an important overview as to the importance of wavelength, wattage and more. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3288797/

Here are the relevant research papers I found:

• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5627142/ So the laser treatment for Major Depression paper uses the following spec: 810-nm, 250 mW/cm2; 60 J/cm2 on scalp; 2.1 J/cm2 at cortical surface; CW; 4 cm2; 240 s at each of 2 sites on forehead.
• This paper has a few other specs mentioned, but 250mw seems to be standard: https://www.jneuropsychiatry.org/pe...apy-for-depression-and-alzheimers-disease.pdf
• https://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-5-46
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777909/
• This paper is on LED infrared. The placebo response was quite high and the LED response was a little higher: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7864111/ However, for reaching through the skull some papers suggest lasers (there is controversy between LEDs vs lasers!)
• This paper is on lasers vs LEDs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091542/ This paper compares and includes wattage and frequency in tables

I've got a tcds machine on order, and I don't know whether to just order the laser too, because my mood is terrible during the day and night and I just want to zap it with everything and anything or wait and do one thing at a time. I'm trying to keep working though and I need to function.

 

[Goodbye710]

Thank you - yes that is really helpful. Your ebay link was really helpful - and I actually found a handheld laser which is 808nm. Apparently, the wattage is also important. I don't really understand about wattage. The device I found is each laser has 150mW on 808nm. It says the total power is 510mW, but maybe that's if you use all the power at once?

In the research paper they used 'multi-Watt NILT' - what is that? And 810/980 nm at 8-15 W.

What's the difference between the wattage, and is the 808 nm enough?

Thank you again for the information. Here is the link to the device I found. While the watch idea is great (and it says it helps brain health) I definitely want one I can point at my forehead!

NEW Portable LLLT Cold Laser Therapy Medical Device for Body Pain Relief at Home | eBay

Proven results for pain relief, inflammation, soft tissue, and skin injury therapy. Natural healing, non-invasive, no side effects and no cross infection. Low-Level Cold Laser Therapy 1x Pain relief low-level cold laser device.

www.ebay.com

I have a device similar to that.

808nm just refers to how deep the infrared light will penetrate. Wattage refers to how long you'll have to hold the light to your head.

210 vs 250 mW is very close. Basically the same.

808nm to around 1000nm infrared range or so will penetrate the skull. It has a very hard time but it will. That's one reason why I recommend other electrical devices over LLLT/laser therapy except for the laser watch.

The device you linked to on ebay only has 3 lasers that are infrared (808 nm range). Those 3 really won't do much in my opinion. You'll need a lot more lasers or led's to do much more than a placebo effect.



My best recommendation is see if you can get something on say amazon that has a return policy. These devices can add up in cost very quick. Before you know it, you have a closet full of these similar electronic gadgets that have costed a lot of money.

There is something from earthpulse.net that use to have like a 90 return policy. It's a PEMF device which would be similar to the rTms device. You just put it under your couch or your bed. I own a DIY version. Just like the laser watch, the earth pulse device is designed to make you healthier and thus can be helpful for depression.

While I don't own a brain stimulator, many people have used them. Here is one company that sells it with a 30 day return policy this device. https://www.fisherwallace.com/pages...SuWPNgyW3J8-UCUvH7UI69Of_XeROvDhoCN-oQAvD_BwE

This alpha stim brand is popular but more expensive but here are some studies https://www.alpha-stim.com/healthcare-professionals/clinical-research/

I think what I'm trying to say is generally speaking lllt/led's tend to give weaker benefits vs some of the other methods. But really the most important thing is to try out various types of gadgets but make sure you have a return policy so you don't lose your money.

The reason why I bring up these other devices is because they are similar in their benefits. I read one of the studies you linked and here is a quote from it.

"LLLT is not the only example of this type of therapy, but needle acupuncture, transcranial magnetic stimulation and microcurrent therapy also fall into this class"

I hope these answer your questions. If you have any others please feel free to ask.

 

[LittleJem]

Hi @Jpd998 thank you again, that is really helpful. I think I'd say though that the infrared does have a different mechanism to the other machines e.g. tcds, so it is worth trying both for me. I need to preserve a bit of hope and keep having some options to try. When I've exhausted all options, this suffering won't be worth enduring. Your information about wattage and quantity of lasers is super helpful, thank you so much. More psychedelics also on my list.

Im so impressed you made your own TMS machine. It helped me so much (for about four days!). When it helped, I told the technician I wanted to marry the machine!!!!
TMS: £70000 for 8 days off depression. Lol. The lasers are cheap at the price.
8 days out of two months

 

[Goodbye710]

Hi LittleJem,

That's good to hear that rTms helped you so much! That it's just cost that was the only factor. There are so many devices out there while they all have a different mechanism if action, they produce similar benefits.

I hope you didn't have to spend that much for treatment. I can't believe the markup that these companies do. The rTms to get FDA approval had to target only a small area of the brain with a powerful magnetic field at a slow or slightly higher frequency. That's all the device is.

But targeting other parts of the brain is perfectly fine. There are other devices that are basically the same. You just don't target it at a specif location. They are called PEMF devices. There are many out there. You can do a search on google. Here is one article https://www.drpawluk.com/blog/depression-anxiety-pemf-treatment/



With LLLT or LED (which are almost as effective as LLLT) you can buy different devices on the internet. What you're looking for is something that has a lot of lasers prefersbly or led's in the infrared spectrum.

Here is something you can look into to see what suites you
Amazon product ASIN B07SH2GHP6
Amazon product ASIN B08M3QB8JZ
I don't know the country you're in but you should be able to find similar on amazon.

Also, there use to be a lot of forums dedicated to this type of technology. I haven't been active in it for many years but I know one forum that might give info on LLLT/LED. It's spooky2forum dot com You can sign up, ask a question regarding depression and LLLT or do a search there. They use to be helpful but I haven't been on there for 5 years.

They sell their own devices on that forum but you don't have to buy theirs as again there are so many devices available. Just look around the forum for experiences for those with depression. Most use that forum for treating cancer but there should be experiences using it for depression.

One major reason I mentioned regarding LLLT/LED not giving as good of results is while infrared light can penetrate the skull, it has a hard time to. So it's harder to get results vs something like rTms which again is basically just PEMF.

I hope this makes sense. I know there is some weird terms to understand but maybe this will help steer you in a direction.

With all these devices you have to keep using them to keep receiving the benefits. Otherwise, eventually everythings gets back to the way it was before treatment. So you want something easy to use and are comfortable with. For instance that device that only has 3 LED's you'd have to be using it for a very long time to get a benefit. Wheras the two that I linked to just a quick session each day is all that's needed.

Further, you could always buy a lllt\led device and pemf and brain stimulator and other devices if time isn't on your side. That way your not spending months trying to get results one device at a time.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

 

[LittleJem]

I build my own and have spent thousands on lasers as well as built my own at home rTms (strong pulsating magnet).

I see you've used rtms before. Personally, the pulsating magnet rtms is more effective in my experience.

To replicate benefits for lasers, you can buy infrared led flood light and a power source for it on ebay or similar. They use them on cctv (security camerasj). They are cheap. Just don't use too long and don't look at the light.

The laser would be more effective but led is pretty close.

A better option instead of shining laser or led at your head and you're more likely to use is laser blood irradiation. It's a watch device you put on your wrist for an hour. They go for $30 - $200 on ebay. I have the cheap and expensive ones. You won't see results for a couple months or 6 months of constant use but it's easier to livewith than shinning lasers or led at your head. Justgetting thelaser light into your blood can be very helpful. Healthy blood makes the body a lot healthier including mental health.

The watch laser devices many have an attachment to put in the nose. It's for getting laser light in your blood for laser blood irradiation. It's the same as putting it on your wrist. Just works a bit faster. Putting it in your nose won't get to your brain.

Thank you- I have just re-read it and taken it in properly and I will get a watch. They look really interesting and they have electrodes to put up your nose (weird) but at least it sends it to the brain, as well as the blood. The medical applications are so interesting.

A Laser Watch for Simultaneous Laser Blood Irradiation and Laser Acupuncture at the Wrist

Background: Laser medicine in general has experienced enormous progress over the last years. The latest innovation is a so-called laser watch, a system only slightly larger than a wrist watch. Methods: The laser watch is applied to the wrist, where simultaneous and continuous acupuncture point...

www.karger.com

 

[Goodbye710]

You're welcome LittleJem.

Because you had such good results with rTms, I really think you are on the right track. After my mom had her second stroke years ago, I used that laser watch I linked to earlier. It use to cost more. One of the side effects of a stroke is severe depression and it did work pretty well for that. It does take months to work. But by making the blood very healthy, it normalizes all sorts of things including normalizing hormones and neurotransmitters which helps with depression.

https://www.longdom.org/open-access/effects-of-intravenous-laser-irradiation-of-blood-on-pain-function-anddepression-of-fibromyalgia-patients-2327-5146-1000312.pdf

Using it for 30-60 minutes 5 days a week for a couple months. Then after can reduce how often to just a day or two a week.

I had a cheaper watch but I don't think it was as effective.

Putting the laser in your nose will give faster results.

There is this device. It's expensive for what it is but does have a 6 month 80% money back guarantee.

Vielight | Brain Photobiomodulation Technology

Vielight develops transcranial-intranasal photobiomodulation (PBM) technology for brain stimulation and general wellness.

vielight.com

Research studies - https://vielight.com/references/

I was thinking earlier about you and how I was talking about PEMF, Because you had good results with rTms, I would recommend you also look into this magnetic pulser. It's the best device and closest to the rTms you did.

About – MAGNETRON MAGNETIC PULSERS

I've never used that device but it does have good reviews when I was active in this area many years ago. They were especially used for pain but again, it's very close to rTms.