Discussion IMPORTANT Inert Gas Asphyxiation Simulation

[dyingispeaceful]

I do not see this method being looked at from the perspective below and it's very important to look at it this way.

Let's simulate nitrogen asphyxiation with a Max Dogg kit for John Doe.

-John is confident that the cylinder, flow meter, regulator and hose are all perfectly set up.
-John is not very confident in his ability to hyperventilate properly because of the stress of the situation.
-John is not very confident about his ability to breathe deeply once he pulls the exit bag down because of the stress of the situation.
-John awaits impending torture soon. Therefore, he is confident that once he pulls the bag down, nothing psychological can stop him from aborting the process. The bag will indeed be pulled down for the next 25 mins until the tank is depleted.
-John has checked into a hotel and is confident no one would interrupt him for at least 6 hrs.

John attempts it. Luckily, and because of his planning and hard work, the equipment is perfectly set up and there is no sign of any interuption. Unfortunately, he could not hyperventilate properly or deep breathily as he feared.

Questions to consider:
Q1. How would you predict the intensity of physical sensations that will try to stop John from carying on this process. What can he do to overcome them and how easy or hard is it?
Q2. In the case John overcomes these physical sensations and the bag is indeed down for 25 mins until the tank depleted, will John be dead then or just unconscious? If unconscious, will he eventually die or regain conciousness? What might happen after the 6 hour mark when the body is found?
Q3. In the case John regains consciousness, will he damage his brain? If yes, to what extent?

To everyone considering this method, I believe these are the scenerios we should think about. As peaceful and reliable as this method sounds, there are things where this could go wrong. I hope everyone could do proper research before attempting this or any other methods as failed attempts could make things a lot more worse. This might be the last thing we do. Why not dedicate as much of our time and energy into it as possible to avoid failure?

 

[TiredHorse]

You just wrote up almost exactly my experience with eb/N2.

I cannot address Q2 or Q3; I didn't get 25 minutes into it, or become fully unconscious. Anecdotes of other attempts that I am aware of are short enough on details --unconsciousness does that-- that I can't give you the specific answers you want.

I can guess, in the case of Q2, that if John achieves unconsciousness despite his lack of ability to hyperventilate, his anxiety will abate nce he blacks out and his respirations will slow to where death will proceed as anticipated --but whether death will occur before his tank runs empty depends on how long he takes to achieve that unconscious "calm." Also, remember that time to death varies wildly depending on the individual, sometimes taking up to 40 minutes. 25 minutes worth of gas is too little for any chance of success, in my book.

As for Q1, I'm not sure what you mean by "physical sensations." SI is a mental impetus; a commandeering of the body by a psychological drive. In my case, it wasn't as though I suddenly started flailing about, tearing at the bag. Despite my conscious distress and desire to continue, my body quite calmly and steadily removed the bag and turned off the tank. Even had I zip-tied my thumbs behind my back, I'm certain SI would have achieved my survival by some equally calm, measured method.

As for how to overcome SI, that is, indeed, the $64 question on this forum. Many hypotheses have been put forward, but my personal guess is that the solution will in every case be specific to each individual. For some it might be alcohol, for others cannabis, for others meditation, for others... YouTube cat videos? Who knows? I have been focussing on that a great deal over the last couple weeks, and can offer no definitive answer even for myself.

 

[Zzzzz]

You just wrote up almost exactly my experience with eb/N2.

I cannot address Q2 or Q3; I didn't get 25 minutes into it, or become fully unconscious. Anecdotes of other attempts that I am aware of are short enough on details --unconsciousness does that-- that I can't give you the specific answers you want.

I can guess, in the case of Q2, that if John achieves unconsciousness despite his lack of ability to hyperventilate, his anxiety will abate nce he blacks out and his respirations will slow to where death will proceed as anticipated --but whether death will occur before his tank runs empty depends on how long he takes to achieve that unconscious "calm." Also, remember that time to death varies wildly depending on the individual, sometimes taking up to 40 minutes. 25 minutes worth of gas is too little for any chance of success, in my book.

As for Q1, I'm not sure what you mean by "physical sensations." SI is a mental impetus; a commandeering of the body by a psychological drive. In my case, it wasn't as though I suddenly started flailing about, tearing at the bag. Despite my conscious distress and desire to continue, my body quite calmly and steadily removed the bag and turned off the tank. Even had I zip-tied my thumbs behind my back, I'm certain SI would have achieved my survival by some equally calm, measured method.

As for how to overcome SI, that is, indeed, the $64 question on this forum. Many hypotheses have been put forward, but my personal guess is that the solution will in every case be specific to each individual. For some it might be alcohol, for others cannabis, for others meditation, for others... YouTube cat videos? Who knows? I have been focussing on that a great deal over the last couple weeks, and can offer no definitive answer even for myself.

How long did you inhale the gas?

 

[TiredHorse]

How long did you inhale the gas?

I wish I could tell you for certain; it really bothers me that I can't. My sense of time went to hell, probably at least partially due to anxiety. A minute? Three? Eight seconds? A hell of a lot longer than I expected it would take to black out, and not long enough to become unconscious. I took a lot more breaths than the three breaths that all the sources I had read said it should take before you black out.

I have no doubt I was breathing too fast as I took more and more (too shallow) breaths and didn't black out. The realization that it isn't working the way it was supposed to --NO! NO! It's not working right!-- is damned rattling even after a couple of attempts, even if a small, logical part of my brain was perfectly aware that it was "operator error" rather than apparatus failure.

I'm sorry I can't be precise.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

As for Q1, I'm not sure what you mean by "physical sensations." SI is a mental impetus; a commandeering of the body by a psychological drive.

By physical sensations, I meant the suffocation one might feel if they haven't hyperventilated properly or are breathing deeply due to the build up of CO2. Pardon me, as I'm very ignorant about physiology.

In my case, it wasn't as though I suddenly started flailing about, tearing at the bag. Despite my conscious distress and desire to continue, my body quite calmly and steadily removed the bag and turned off the tank. Even had I zip-tied my thumbs behind my back, I'm certain SI would have achieved my survival by some equally calm, measured method.

So are you saying that you didn't feel any sense of physical doscomfort(minor suffocation), rather, your reason for aborting was purely a conscious decision(with or without panic, please let me know which one) motivated by your survival instinct?

Had you not removed the bag, would you say you would not be alive anymore?

 

[Made4TV]

I have tried this method and can tell you my experience with it, and what I would do differently.

1. First things first - the method did not fail. I failed the method.
2. I have large lung capacity, so I set the lpm to 20, instead of 15. It just felt better to me in a quick test I did.
3. I took 2 xanax (2 mg total) before attempting...but I was still jittery and nervous at the actual moment I turned on the gas...because of SI.
4. I took some nice breaths and started to feel my extremities tingle. It wasn't unpleasant. I felt a bit like I was floating.
5. I was super annoyed with the oven bag I chose, because it was extremely loud crinkly and just...ugh. Every time I breathed in and out it would move and make the crinkly noise.
6. I have multiple personalities (yay us), and another personality aborted the method by lifting up the bag partially above the mouth I believe. NOTE: this was not done on my part because I was panicking or anything...I was nervous, my heart was racing a bit, but I was determined and also focused and intentional. I thought I had buy-in from others in my internal system but apparently did not. I don't ever remember panicking from any kind of breathing issue (short of breath, not feeling like I was getting enough to breath etc - that all was fine).
7. Enough oxygen entered the mask probably after only a minute into the attempt? I remember feeling like i had hit the point of no return, wondering if I could even really move my extremities, and that's the last thing I remember - probably that is when the other personality stepped in front and intervened. I ended up having no lasting effects. At the ER, my nitrogen level in my blood was high, and my blood oxygen level was low when the paramedics arrived. But not life threatening.
8. I was "rescued" because of this other personality apparently answering the phone when my psych doc called several hours later, and just saying "help" - he'd called multiple times but it seems we were passed out and probably in and out because of the xanax, and I'm guessing a little bit of lack of oxygen since we still had our head mostly in a bag? There was a lot of condensation built up inside of it. I don't know why, but earlier in the morning (after the attempt, before the "rescue") the cops had been banging on my door, which was about 8 feet from my head and I didn't wake up. Assuming xanax for that.
9. That's really all I have. If I were to do this again, I'd do the following: get a larger tank so I don't worry about releasing too much nitrogen when setting things up, etc., as well as to be really sure there is enough and not worry about that, especially since my flow was 20 lpm. I'd research different bags and get one made of a material that's not loud. Minor, but annoying. I'd get rid of my phone entirely, outside of the house. It was probably one aspect of why things happened the way they did.

As of right now, I'm glad I didn't succeed. I have been able to see a way forward and was able to do some last ditch things I guess I hadn't totally considered before? Or just thought they wouldn't work. However, I'm glad I decided to give these things a try - since I figured why not? What do I have to lose at this point. I was honest with some friends, one of whom has been helping me financially for a bit to get over some hurdles while I'm waiting for disability approval (I made the decision to stop working and apply for disability while in the hospital recovering from this). I never would have thought that was possible, but I wouldn't have asked people to help me with it either...but because of the attempt, it kind of forced the issue and the friend stepped up to help. Some other things also resolved, and I had a few pieces of good things happen which were totally unexpected. I ended up researching a lot more things I could do to help myself, and got myself in some art therapy, and researched other mental health options in my area, and found some help. That said, I haven't ruled anything out, although I no longer have my equipment. But I got it once...I could get it again. Bottom line, if I felt the way I did at this attempt, and I really thought everybody internally was on board, I would attempt with this method again. It wasn't scary to me. There was SI, and that was a bitch and a bit of a hurdle at the end, but once I was determined and started the flow, I felt like everything went well. I did not panic in any way from breathing the nitrogen. I didn't notice I wasn't breathing oxygen. I just started feeling my extremities go numb...progressively...which I found oddly soothing. Like I was floating.

That's my story - remember, I failed the method...I still believe in this method.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

I have tried this method and can tell you my experience with it, and what I would do differently.

1. First things first - the method did not fail. I failed the method.
2. I have large lung capacity, so I set the lpm to 20, instead of 15. It just felt better to me in a quick test I did.
3. I took 2 xanax (2 mg total) before attempting...but I was still jittery and nervous at the actual moment I turned on the gas...because of SI.
4. I took some nice breaths and started to feel my extremities tingle. It wasn't unpleasant. I felt a bit like I was floating.
5. I was super annoyed with the oven bag I chose, because it was extremely loud crinkly and just...ugh. Every time I breathed in and out it would move and make the crinkly noise.
6. I have multiple personalities (yay us), and another personality aborted the method by lifting up the bag partially above the mouth I believe. NOTE: this was not done on my part because I was panicking or anything...I was nervous, my heart was racing a bit, but I was determined and also focused and intentional. I thought I had buy-in from others in my internal system but apparently did not. I don't ever remember panicking from any kind of breathing issue (short of breath, not feeling like I was getting enough to breath etc - that all was fine).
7. Enough oxygen entered the mask probably after only a minute into the attempt? I remember feeling like i had hit the point of no return, wondering if I could even really move my extremities, and that's the last thing I remember - probably that is when the other personality stepped in front and intervened. I ended up having no lasting effects. At the ER, my nitrogen level in my blood was high, and my blood oxygen level was low when the paramedics arrived. But not life threatening.
8. I was "rescued" because of this other personality apparently answering the phone when my psych doc called several hours later, and just saying "help" - he'd called multiple times but it seems we were passed out and probably in and out because of the xanax, and I'm guessing a little bit of lack of oxygen since we still had our head mostly in a bag? There was a lot of condensation built up inside of it. I don't know why, but earlier in the morning (after the attempt, before the "rescue") the cops had been banging on my door, which was about 8 feet from my head and I didn't wake up. Assuming xanax for that.
9. That's really all I have. If I were to do this again, I'd do the following: get a larger tank so I don't worry about releasing too much nitrogen when setting things up, etc., as well as to be really sure there is enough and not worry about that, especially since my flow was 20 lpm. I'd research different bags and get one made of a material that's not loud. Minor, but annoying. I'd get rid of my phone entirely, outside of the house. It was probably one aspect of why things happened the way they did.

As of right now, I'm glad I didn't succeed. I have been able to see a way forward and was able to do some last ditch things I guess I hadn't totally considered before? Or just thought they wouldn't work. However, I'm glad I decided to give these things a try - since I figured why not? What do I have to lose at this point. I was honest with some friends, one of whom has been helping me financially for a bit to get over some hurdles while I'm waiting for disability approval (I made the decision to stop working and apply for disability while in the hospital recovering from this). I never would have thought that was possible, but I wouldn't have asked people to help me with it either...but because of the attempt, it kind of forced the issue and the friend stepped up to help. Some other things also resolved, and I had a few pieces of good things happen which were totally unexpected. I ended up researching a lot more things I could do to help myself, and got myself in some art therapy, and researched other mental health options in my area, and found some help. That said, I haven't ruled anything out, although I no longer have my equipment. But I got it once...I could get it again. Bottom line, if I felt the way I did at this attempt, and I really thought everybody internally was on board, I would attempt with this method again. It wasn't scary to me. There was SI, and that was a bitch and a bit of a hurdle at the end, but once I was determined and started the flow, I felt like everything went well. I did not panic in any way from breathing the nitrogen. I didn't notice I wasn't breathing oxygen. I just started feeling my extremities go numb...progressively...which I found oddly soothing. Like I was floating.

That's my story - remember, I failed the method...I still believe in this method.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm really glad to know that your life unexpectedly pivoted towards a positive direction and I really hope things keep getting better for you. Hope you can take care of yourself :)

 

[ArtVandelay]

Thank you for posting such a detailed report. I'm curious what you mean by this:

Enough oxygen entered the mask probably after only a minute into the attempt

How did oxygen get in the bag? Was it not tight enough around your neck?

 

[TiredHorse]

So are you saying that you didn't feel any sense of physical doscomfort(minor suffocation), rather, your reason for aborting was purely a conscious decision(with or without panic, please let me know which one) motivated by your survival instinct?

There was no physical discomfort whatsoever. Maybe a bit of tingling in my extremities, but not unpleasantly (it took a little while to fade, if I remember correctly, but I wasn't breathing well even after my attempt). No sense of suffocation, no hypercapnic alarm (I've intentionally triggered that, as an experiment), no headache, not even a bad smell from the gas. The oven bags are crinkly, and I might use music/earbuds next time to mitigate that, but even without music it wasn't a problem.

Had you not removed the bag, would you say you would not be alive anymore?

That is correct: I would not be alive had I not removed the bag.

As @Made4TV said so eloquently, I failed the method, the method did not fail me. Maybe I'll try and get hold of some xanax next time?

 

[dyingispeaceful]

How did oxygen get in the bag? Was it not tight enough around your neck?

Nice spot. I'm also curious to know what happened. Missed this part amongst the details.

 

[TiredHorse]

I'm curious what you mean by this:

I suspect that was a slip of terminology. @Made4TV is otherwise very clear about using a bag.

How did oxygen get in the bag? Was it not tight enough around your neck?

As Made4TV said:

...another personality aborted the method by lifting up the bag partially above the mouth I believe.

So it sounds like one of the personalities sabotaged the attempt by shifting the bag adequate to allow in an adequate (barely) supply of air.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

That is correct: I would not be alive had I not removed the bag.

Just curious, are you happy or sad about failing due to SI?

 

[TiredHorse]

Just curious, are you happy or sad about failing due to SI?

I don't know. That's a complex question for me right now.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

I don't know. That's a complex question for me right now.

Reasonable.

 

[Zzzzz]

I wish I could tell you for certain; it really bothers me that I can't. My sense of time went to hell, probably at least partially due to anxiety. A minute? Three? Eight seconds? A hell of a lot longer than I expected it would take to black out, and not long enough to become unconscious. I took a lot more breaths than the three breaths that all the sources I had read said it should take before you black out.

I have no doubt I was breathing too fast as I took more and more (too shallow) breaths and didn't black out. The realization that it isn't working the way it was supposed to --NO! NO! It's not working right!-- is damned rattling even after a couple of attempts, even if a small, logical part of my brain was perfectly aware that it was "operator error" rather than apparatus failure.

I'm sorry I can't be precise.

It's no problem at all. I appreciate your response.

 

[Made4TV]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm really glad to know that your life unexpectedly pivoted towards a positive direction and I really hope things keep getting better for you. Hope you can take care of yourself :)

Thank you so much. I'm doing a lot of things to try to turn things around, so we'll see how it all goes. :)

Also, I'm sorry for the confusion about oxygen getting in the bsg. It only got in the bag after someone else of us (I know, how weird is that concept) lifted the bag edge up to the mouth/slightly above the mouth I think, or loosened the string (I had a shoelace with a plastic toggle on it to tighten it to the necessary degree once the bag was pulled down). Not sure exactly which, but one of those things happened, and again, not because of any hypercapnic response. I know that if another personality had not done this, I wouldn't be here typing this. Quite sure of it. And honestly...that would be OK too. For me...not necessarily those around me. But I'm glad I was able to have the time to explore some other things...like, if I'm going to die anyway, and I can do it whenever I want, why not try this last ditch thing and see if it helps? Like, what would be the worst thing that could happen? It was a bit of a mind shift, and I'm glad for it, although I remain firmly pro-choice, and don't rule out the possibility of ctb in the future.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

It only got in the bag after someone else of us (I know, how weird is that concept) lifted the bag edge up to the mouth/slightly above the mouth I think, or loosened the string (I had a shoelace with a plastic toggle on it to tighten it to the necessary degree once the bag was pulled down).

Could I ask why you went along with a shoe lace instead of an elastic?

 

[ArtVandelay]

Could I ask why you went along with a shoe lace instead of an elastic?

Probably more readily available (it's already on your shoe lol). Elastic is better though...this way you don't accidentally choke yourself or make it so tight that your exhaled CO2 can't escape.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

Probably more readily available (it's already on your shoe lol).

There are quite a number of elastic sellers on eBay. You want this to be the last thing you do and the stakes are high, so better not take any small risks.

 

[ArtVandelay]

There are quite a number of elastic sellers on eBay. You want this to be the last thing you do and the stakes are high, so better not take any small risks.

I agree 100%. eBay is fantastic...I got 5 meters of elastic there for under $4 USD.

 

[Made4TV]

Could I ask why you went along with a shoe lace instead of an elastic?

Dang sorry i forgot an important thing... it was shoelace made from elastic. I bought bunch of these special laces off kickstarter that were supposed to make it so you could slip in and out of shoes without untying. Yes, depression makes me that lazy. Important detail....sorry!

 

[ArtVandelay]

Dang sorry i forgot an important thing... it was shoelace made from elastic. I bought bunch of these special laces off kickstarter that were supposed to make it so you could slip in and out of shoes without untying. Yes, depression makes me that lazy. Important detail....sorry!

I have some of those too. Elastic laces with plastic toggle for tightening them...kind of like an exit bag lol. Really convenient.

 

[dyingispeaceful]

Dang sorry i forgot an important thing... it was shoelace made from elastic. I bought bunch of these special laces off kickstarter that were supposed to make it so you could slip in and out of shoes without untying. Yes, depression makes me that lazy. Important detail....sorry!

Thanks for clarifying. It can be really tempting to be lazy considering the situation most of us here are in but laziness is what can bite us really hard if unfortunately our attempt fails.
Good Luck!