Help If you end up throwing up your SN, should you force out some more?

[Darkhaven]

Are there any increased dangers if you pour out some more after throwing up the "first round"?

 

[Qverty7455]

I guess it would be so sensitive that you would vomit some more after the terrible taste of the new dose. But I heard you can CTB even after you puked but I guess it depends on circumstances

 

[DeathImminent]

I think calling an ambulance is wiser

 

[gingerplum]

No. I would (hypothetically) recommend taking more if you vomit, otherwise you're probably just looking at the side effects rather than the end goal.

Edit: If you do decide to call EMS, remember the antidote is methylene blue-- they won't have it with them, but it needs to be ready at the hospital. Unfortunately, you'll have some explaining to do and probably a few mandatory days in a psych unit.

 

[Trainwreck]

No. I would (hypothetically) recommend taking more if you vomit, otherwise you're probably just looking at the side effects rather than the end goal.

Edit: If you do decide to call EMS, remember the antidote is methylene blue-- they won't have it with them, but it needs to be ready at the hospital. Unfortunately, you'll have some explaining to do and probably a few mandatory days in a psych unit.

My plan is to try to drink a second dose if I throw up the first. At least there's a better chance that enough of it will remain in my system to do the job.

Do you think most hospitals see a blue person, and know they need to treat you with methylene blue? Worse case scenario and I'm found, I'm hoping I'll get clueless doctors and paramedics that don't figure it out until it's too late. I have a short note written (just a quick bit about my health conditions, that I've chosen rational suicide instead of misery, and that I acted alone), but am unsure about whether to put it someplace obvious, or hide it a bit. If they see the note right off the bat, they'll probably know how to treat me. Maybe if I fold it and put under my clock radio, it will be found soon, but not too soon

 

[Dystopia]

My plan is to try to drink a second dose if I throw up the first. At least there's a better chance that enough of it will remain in my system to do the job.

Do you think most hospitals see a blue person, and know they need to treat you with methylene blue? Worse case scenario and I'm found, I'm hoping I'll get clueless doctors and paramedics that don't figure it out until it's too late. I have a short note written (just a quick bit about my health conditions, that I've chosen rational suicide instead of misery, and that I acted alone), but am unsure about whether to put it someplace obvious, or hide it a bit. If they see the note right off the bat, they'll probably know how to treat me. Maybe if I fold it and put under my clock radio, it will be found soon, but not too soon

They're probably getting a bit more clued up on the effects of SN poisoning but the dead give away is the sample of your blood being a brown colour which normally indicates nitrite/nitrate poisoning.

They would definitely be giving you oxygen to counter the lack of oxygen you'll be getting due to methemoglobinemia.

 

[Trainwreck]

I suppose paramedics would draw blood, and alert the hospital. I guess I'll just lay my note next me, and pray that the universe cuts me a break and I'm not found until I'm dead (and that I don't freak out and call for help).

 

[gingerplum]

Do you think most hospitals see a blue person, and know they need to treat you with methylene blue?

I have a short note written... but am unsure about whether to put it someplace obvious, or hide it a bit.

I really wonder about that myself. It's probably going to be rare that someone thinks, "This looks like sodium nitrite poisoning," but as @Dystopia pointed out, they'll put O2 on you right away, and even if they aren't familiar with nitrate/nitrite poisoning, they'll figure it out based on presentation and lab work.

It's a fairly obscure thing, and not every physician is Gregory House, MD.

I'd leave the note somewhere not immediately visible, but somewhere people look every day, like the mailbox, refrigerator, or shower.

I suppose paramedics would draw blood, and alert the hospital.

Good point; although they won't run labwork until the blood is at the hospital, I'm sure EMS would comment that it's very abnormal looking and brown in color.

 

[TowerUpright]

Hospitals frequently use a product called UpToDate . It is an online warehouse of medical information, drug interactions, etc. I no longer have access to this. But, I'm willing to bet a simple search of someone presenting with brown blood would yield SN poisoning.

If you're worried about hospital treatment, you could try to be in a town that has a very small hospital.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

What about injecting SN with a syringe? If you inject it then you wouldn't throw it up so that would make it more reliable than drinking it. Would that be a certain fast death? Would that be painful? I'll trade off a minute of pain for not feeling pain ever again for trillions of trillions of years to infinity and beyond.

 

[gingerplum]

I think that would work, it's just not practical. Isn't the minimum amount of water necessary to mix in at least 50 mL? That's a really, really big "push," so you'd have to get a couple of 30 mL syringes and either use an IV catheter or stick yourself twice-- and it'll need to be a BIG vein.

I'm not even sure you could use the same vein twice; sodium is extremely irritating to the lining of veins, and typically causes them to collapse. In fact, hypertonic saline is used in sclerotherapy, to get rid of spider veins and varicose veins by destroying them from the inside.

 

[TowerUpright]

There is always the rectal route.....

I think that would work, it's just not practical. Isn't the minimum amount of water necessary to mix in at least 50 mL? That's a really, really big "push," so you'd have to get a couple of 30 mL syringes and either use an IV catheter or stick yourself twice-- and it'll need to be a BIG vein.

I'm not even sure you could use the same vein twice; sodium is extremely irritating to the lining of veins, and typically causes them to collapse. In fact, hypertonic saline is used in sclerotherapy, to get rid of spider veins and varicose veins by destroying yhem from the inside.

And it would burn like hell....

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Ok I see that injecting SN in veins is bad. But what about using less water than 50ml and injecting the SN in muscles not veins?
That seems less painful than in veins, no chance of throwing it up and potentially you could use more than 20g to ensure death.
Would that work?

 

[Blackjack]

Ok I see that injecting SN in veins is bad. But what about using less water than 50ml and injecting the SN in muscles not veins?
That seems less painful than in veins, no chance of throwing it up and potentially you could use more than 20g to ensure death.
Would that work?

@Stan has done a tremendous amount of research about IM (intramuscular) SN, please reach out to him.

 

[Trainwreck]

I've been resisting my GIs recommendation that I get a feeding tube (I've not read good things about them, plus it would require a hospital stay and I'm terrified of hospitals due to being in them way too often). But now I'm thinking that would sure be any easy way to ingest a fatal amount of SN!

 

[sleepy dog]

Wouldn't the bluish appearance of lips, etc give away what's going on?

 

[Trainwreck]

Wouldn't the bluish appearance of lips, etc give away what's going on?

Is that in response to me? If so, they only keep you at the hospital long enough to be sure you tolerate the feeds, and for you to learn how to do them yourself. I'd wait until I was home to turn into a smurf. The reality is, I'm too much of a chicken shit to get the feeding tube. I had an NG tube once when I had a bowel obstruction. If was incredibly painful when they put it in (my nasal passages are small), and very uncomfortable to live with. They even were making me swallow my pills with that tube down my throat (fun times), which was so stupid, because the NG was suctioning everything right back out. Horrible memories!

 

[Stan]

What about injecting SN with a syringe? If you inject it then you wouldn't throw it up so that would make it more reliable than drinking it. Would that be a certain fast death? Would that be painful? I'll trade off a minute of pain for not feeling pain ever again for trillions of trillions of years to infinity and beyond.

Not only is that a viable solution it is actually a medical protocol for cyanide poisoning. I will be doing this in conjunction with taking it orally but you need to make a completely different solution that is weaker than the one you take orally. Needs to be 3% by volume rather than a weight in a glass of water. Can search for a post where I outlined how to make this solution. But I highlight it would be at your own risk as it is my risk in doing it, and you do not need large amounts as its going into your bloodstream directly and bypassing the metabolic process

 

[Trainwreck]

Not only is that a viable solution it is actually a medical protocol for cyanide poisoning. I will be doing this in conjunction with taking it orally but you need to make a completely different solution that is weaker than the one you take orally. Needs to be 3% by volume rather than a weight in a glass of water. Can search for a post where I outlined how to make this solution. But I highlight it would be at your own risk as it is my risk in doing it, and you do not need large amounts as its going into your bloodstream directly and bypassing the metabolic process

Huh, this definitely sounds intriguing. A nice bit of failsafe if you vomit part of the SN!

 

[gingerplum]

Ok I see that injecting SN in veins is bad. But what about using less water than 50ml and injecting the SN in muscles not veins?
That seems less painful than in veins, no chance of throwing it up and potentially you could use more than 20g to ensure death.
Would that work?

No. Hard no. Again, it's way too much fluid; IM injections are usually 3 mL or less. MORE IMPORTANTLY: this kind of SN isn't made for injection. It might be incredibly painful. What if it doesn't work, and you're left with large areas of tissue that actually died from a toxic, non-sterile solution? You would have to have big chunks of necrotic skin and muscle surgically carved out of you. This idea scares me.

If it's vomiting that you're worried about, let me know and we can talk about rectal administration.

 

[Stan]

MORE IMPORTANTLY: SN isn't made for injection.

Sorry Gingerplum, hate to disagree with my favourite medic.

Sodium Nitrite Injection

Pharmacy Times offers the latest news and insights for the pharmacy professional and solutions that impact the everyday practice of pharmacy.

www.pharmacytimes.com

 

[gingerplum]

Sorry Gingerplum, hate to disagree with my favourite medic.

Sodium Nitrite Injection

Pharmacy Times offers the latest news and insights for the pharmacy professional and solutions that impact the everyday practice of pharmacy.

www.pharmacytimes.com

I'm not a medic; I'm a registered nurse with 20+ years experience in acute and critical care.

When I say "SN isn't made for injection," I thought it was pretty obvious I was referring to the kind people here are using, the kind used to cure meat, which is not sterile and NOT meant for injection. Plus, I don't know what additives are in it or how toxic to cells they might be.

So, the above article doesn't state dosage, but it does state "single dose vials." This means a dose is 3 mL or less. It also states the percentage of sodium nitrite is 3%, whereas the percentage we're talking about here is probably 50%, and likely higher depending on dilution.

The following article discusses cellular death in vitro using a hypertonic saline solution of only 7%. I realize that NaCl and NO2 are very different things, but it's the sodium content I'm concerned about... it's not compatible with living cells, and if you were to survive with massive areas of tissue necrosis it would be beyond horrific.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/7798155_Intramuscular_Injection_of_Hypertonic_Saline_In_vitro_and_in_vivo_Muscle_Tissue_Toxicity_and_Spinal_Neurone_c-fos_Expression/amp

Please see also this Wikipedia entry, which supports my theory that hypertonic saline as low as 3% causes tissue necrosis:

"Due to hypertonicity, administration may result in plebitis and tissue necrosis".

Saline (medicine) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I stand by my original statement; maybe IM injection would work, but I would never endorse being the first one to try it.

 

[sleepy dog]

Is that in response to me? If so, they only keep you at the hospital long enough to be sure you tolerate the feeds, and for you to learn how to do them yourself. I'd wait until I was home to turn into a smurf. The reality is, I'm too much of a chicken shit to get the feeding tube. I had an NG tube once when I had a bowel obstruction. If was incredibly painful when they put it in (my nasal passages are small), and very uncomfortable to live with. They even were making me swallow my pills with that tube down my throat (fun times), which was so stupid, because the NG was suctioning everything right back out. Horrible memories!

No, it was not in response to you.

 

[gingerplum]

Not only is that a viable solution it is actually a medical protocol for cyanide poisoning. I will be doing this in conjunction with taking it orally but you need to make a completely different solution that is weaker than the one you take orally. Needs to be 3% by volume rather than a weight in a glass of water. Can search for a post where I outlined how to make this solution. But I highlight it would be at your own risk as it is my risk in doing it, and you do not need large amounts as its going into your bloodstream directly and bypassing the metabolic process

How much water would be required to make a 3% solution? If the PPH recommends a minimum of 50 mL for oral solution, that's already a HUGE volume for IV push; now we're talking about significantly more.

Yes, you wouldn't need as big of a dose IV because you're skipping over first-pass metabolism, but how are you calculating the percentage lost to the gut and liver?? I have no clue how to figure that out.

Finally-- and I will keep repeating this-- hypertonic saline is used in sclerotherapy to kill spider veins and varicose veins, and I don't know how long any given vein will tolerate this concentration before it collapses... this is why it's only used with central lines in a hospital setting, not peripheral IV's.

Are you going to to use one vein to push all of the solution? Using a 60 mL syringe to inject directly into a vein is wildly impractical, and you'd have to do it twice.

Am I missing something here?? I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong, but IV sounds completely impractical, and IM is likely going to result in massive tissue death if you survive.

I've been resisting my GIs recommendation that I get a feeding tube (I've not read good things about them, plus it would require a hospital stay and I'm terrified of hospitals due to being in them way too often). But now I'm thinking that would sure be any easy way to ingest a fatal amount of SN!

If you want to place a NG or OG tube to bypass tasting and swallowing, I'm sure there are YouTube how-to videos. It's not difficult at all. Or, are you talking about a PEG (percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy) tube? Because that would actually be the holy grail of easy when it comes to ingesting anything.

 

[Blackjack]

I've been resisting my GIs recommendation that I get a feeding tube (I've not read good things about them, plus it would require a hospital stay and I'm terrified of hospitals due to being in them way too often). But now I'm thinking that would sure be any easy way to ingest a fatal amount of SN!

Hhmmm never even thought of that. But feeding tubes are just nasty.

 

[Stan]

How much water would be required to make a 3% solution? If the PPH recommends a minimum of 50 mL for oral solution, that's already a HUGE volume for IV push; now we're talking about significantly more.

Yes, you wouldn't need as big of a dose IV because you're skipping over first-pass metabolism, but how are you calculating the percentage lost to the gut and liver?? I have no clue how to figure that out.

Finally-- and I will keep repeating this-- hypertonic saline is used in sclerotherapy to kill spider veins and varicose veins, and I don't know how long any given vein will tolerate this concentration before it collapses... this is why it's only used with central lines in a hospital setting, not peripheral IV's.

Are you going to to use one vein to push all of the solution? Using a 60 mL syringe to inject directly into a vein is wildly impractical, and you'd have to do it twice.

Am I missing something here?? I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong, but IV sounds completely impractical, and IM is likely going to result in massive tissue death if you survive.

First of all I wasn't intend to insult by saying medic when referring to you, in the UK and especially if you have worked with the armed forces, the word 'medic' refers to anyone with formal medical training. That could range from a student nurse to a top level surgeon, so no offence was made by it. When in a particular battlefield scenario, all you are looking for is someone who can help. So hopefully I am forgiven?

Somewhat reluctant a bit to go through the process of making the 3% solution as I did a few posts on it and realised I opened a can of worms. It is completely different to making the oral solution, if you use the oral solution as recommended by the PPH through injection, you will really hurt yourself.

I completely agree that in the context of a known and tested cbt method it has zero formal research or approval from anyone with the right qualifications to do so. This is a real 'do not try this at home' moment.

I will say how I got to my theory and I will be sending a paper to Exit on my leaving to see if they could review and expand on it for viability. So really happy to share how I got to this idea, but unwilling to give someone a prescription to hurt themselves. The premise of my investigation was based on reducing some of the regimen, time for SN to take effect and not worry about vomiting. So I can see that an enema is possible, but the dignity thing really came to mind. So I then looked at injecting. Using search parameters I saw that vials of SN were being sold. Looked at why it existed and found that it is one of two drugs administered to patients suffering from cyanide poisoning. The method outlined for administering SN as part of the cyanide poisoning protocol outlines administering a certain quantity over a certain point of time with the aftercare notes of observing for the effects we are trying to achieve by taking SN. If you go into those instructions more and perhaps cross reference with other articles issued by medical resources, you would be able to calculate the dosage that they seem as fatal. And without giving specifics as my reasoning above, it is nowhere near 60ml that needs to be injected and the quantity in weight of SN is significantly reduced. So what did I achieve by the research? Yes you can inject SN. It is completely different in preparation to the oral method. Would reduce some of the regimen

However this will not remove the symptoms of low blood pressure, potential headache and tachycardia. But does negate the regimen to a degree with antiemetics and antacid.

So please take this as theory. The fact that I am doing it is completely at my own risk and I am in no way endorsing it or saying it as a replacement in whole or part from the tried and tested method outlined in both the SN megathread and PPH.

 

[gingerplum]

First of all I wasn't intend to insult by saying medic when referring to you, in the UK and especially if you have worked with the armed forces, the word 'medic' refers to anyone with formal medical training. That could range from a student nurse to a top level surgeon, so no offence was made by it. When in a particular battlefield scenario, all you are looking for is someone who can help. So hopefully I am forgiven?

Somewhat reluctant a bit to go through the process of making the 3% solution as I did a few posts on it and realised I opened a can of worms. It is completely different to making the oral solution, if you use the oral solution as recommended by the PPH through injection, you will really hurt yourself.

I completely agree that in the context of a known and tested cbt method it has zero formal research or approval from anyone with the right qualifications to do so. This is a real 'do not try this at home' moment.

I will say how I got to my theory and I will be sending a paper to Exit on my leaving to see if they could review and expand on it for viability. So really happy to share how I got to this idea, but unwilling to give someone a prescription to hurt themselves. The premise of my investigation was based on reducing some of the regimen, time for SN to take effect and not worry about vomiting. So I can see that an enema is possible, but the dignity thing really came to mind. So I then looked at injecting. Using search parameters I saw that vials of SN were being sold. Looked at why it existed and found that it is one of two drugs administered to patients suffering from cyanide poisoning. The method outlined for administering SN as part of the cyanide poisoning protocol outlines administering a certain quantity over a certain point of time with the aftercare notes of observing for the effects we are trying to achieve by taking SN. If you go into those instructions more and perhaps cross reference with other articles issued by medical resources, you would be able to calculate the dosage that they seem as fatal. And without giving specifics as my reasoning above, it is nowhere near 60ml that needs to be injected and the quantity in weight of SN is significantly reduced. So what did I achieve by the research? Yes you can inject SN. It is completely different in preparation to the oral method. Would reduce some of the regimen

However this will not remove the symptoms of low blood pressure, potential headache and tachycardia. But does negate the regimen to a degree with antiemetics and antacid.

So please take this as theory. The fact that I am doing it is completely at my own risk and I am in no way endorsing it or saying it as a replacement in whole or part from the tried and tested method outlined in both the SN megathread and PPH.

Don't be silly, there's nothing to forgive. In the US, medics are guys in the military that pass out battlefield meds with little or no formal training, so I wanted to differentiate from that.

Can of worms is right. If you want to be the Guinea pig that's your choice, as long as you understand the risks and you've figured out IV quantity and dilution, however, I think discussing it here creates confusion and potential misinformation.

Also, how do you know what additives are in the SN? There are typically a variety of anti-caking agents used in salt; I'm wondering if any of these are used in commercial SN and if so, how do you know they won't feel like shards of glass in your veins?

Finally, I can't emphasize enough that injecting SN into a muscle should not be attempted by anyone, ever. A failed attempt will probably require multiple surgeries to excise all of the necrotic tissue the SN killed, resulting in limited mobility and physical deformities.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but this site was created at least in part to minimize pain and suffering, not exacerbate it.

 

[Stan]

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but this site was created at least in part to minimize pain and suffering, not exacerbate it.

And I completely agree and hopefully I put enough warnings in my post for people not to do it. I have already received a few pm for request and I will be politely declining because I am not here to cause harm. But with the job I did back in the day I'm conditioned to seeking new ideas and coming out with theories. So the theory is somewhat there. Without going further into the detail of my research I can't really respond to your valid questions without some people asking even more questions on top with regarding this theory. I have done my best to mitigate the risks and issues surrounding what I am doing and fully admit there are some that risks that without access to a real pharmaceutical laboratory I cannot negate. However, I will say tongue in cheek that I am not giving myself a vitamin shot and I am doing it to make sure this is a one time event.

 

[khw777]

No. I would (hypothetically) recommend taking more if you vomit, otherwise you're probably just looking at the side effects rather than the end goal.

Edit: If you do decide to call EMS, remember the antidote is methylene blue-- they won't have it with them, but it needs to be ready at the hospital. Unfortunately, you'll have some explaining to do and probably a few mandatory days in a psych unit.

If you do throw up what should do? Call the ambulance or keep waiting?