Help If asked for it, couldn't an ISP show that you've been on SS?

[.............]

I've been thinking about deleting my Internet history and all that when I CTB because I don't want this website to get into any trouble. But even if I do that, can't it be seen in ISP records the fact I've been here? I don't understand this stuff all too much, to be honest, so to have someone explain it like I'm five would help. Thanks to whoever answers!

 

[Al Cappella]

While it's certainly possible, the question becomes how probable it is. For the answer to that you'd probably need a lawyer. I'm definitely not one of those. In other words, this is all guesswork. ISPs don't just hand information over, it would take a subpoena. So that's hurdle (a big one) number one.

So, would SS, once identified, face repercussions is question two. Here there are two kinds of trouble—legal and cancel culture type problems. They're already trying the cancel culture stuff by shouting & whatnot for legislation, trying to out the site's principals, etc. Good luck with any of that.

In the internet era, legal stuff is a major headache. By that I mean it depends on the country you're in, and the country the site's host is in, and the country where the folks who make the site are in. Again in other words, it would tie lawyers up for years and most likely never get anywhere. Even if all those jurisdictional issues got sorted, they would then run into protected speech problems. Again, good luck.

If you take even just a little care, use a secondary browser that you can just delete, or encrypt and password protect all your devices, then that's where it most likely ends. And, most people forget, if you have a wifi router, it keeps logs, so delete those.

 

[GentleJerk]

Unfortunately, explaining it like you are 5 might be tough! But I'll try and make it simple-ish.

On one hand, I don't think it would really be a problem in most cases... Depends on the details. Most people probably aren't going to have a thorough investigation about their death if the cause is obvious, because police are busy and suicide is not a crime in most countries.

But lets say for instance they find SN or something else that peaks their interest, and decide to start an investigation to find out more about where it came from for some reason... If LE were to take your computer and look into your search history, or contact your ISP etc, it would be pretty straightforward to see you have been here. Even if that happens I don't think there is much they can do to the site.

The only thing you could do to avoid it, is start using the internet in an anonymous way from now on, I'll attach pdf's for beginners on how to do that if you or anyone else is interested, but that might not help much for the trail you have already left.

There are ways to get rid of search history and logs on your computer, using a more private browser like mozilla, wiping your browsing history, and using a VPN are also simple ways to make being on here difficult for the normal person to see. A skilled person will still be able to find out what you've been up to if they really want to, unless you do some of the things in those pdf's.

Hope that helps anyway, best wishes!

 

[LifeHasNoOptIn]

Without going into the legalities of acquiring that info, the short answer is yes. However, if you use a Proxy, VPN, or TOR browser, your ISP has no idea what you are looking at on the net. I browse the site in private mode so everything disappears from my cache/history when I close the browser, but my ISP does know that I have visited here. If I had a more concrete date in the near future, I would probably be using a VPN as well. Without something locally on your PC to point them in the direction of SS, it's doubtful they would go to the lengths of requesting that info from your ISP unless foul play was suspected imo.

 

[OldDrummer]

Let's just say a 'friend' of mine works in Digital Forensics.

For starters, nothing is ever truly deleted on any digital device.

Once said device has been physically destroyed, unless the circumstances are really suspicious, and suicide is determined, the authorities won't go through the immense legal and monetory expense of court-ordering your ISP to disclose your history. They've already got too much on their caseload to handle if it's clearly a suicide.

 

[Judy Garland]

yeah

 

[shrek34]

I'd say yes. ISPs are usually required by law to collect information such as search history to pass on to relevant authorities if asked for. Unless you're doing something that can prompt investigation you should be all right, but I would use a VPN just in case, especially since whoever has admin access to the router could potentially see history depending on if it is saved.

 

[.............]

While it's certainly possible, the question becomes how probable it is. For the answer to that you'd probably need a lawyer. I'm definitely not one of those. In other words, this is all guesswork. ISPs don't just hand information over, it would take a subpoena. So that's hurdle (a big one) number one.

So, would SS, once identified, face repercussions is question two. Here there are two kinds of trouble—legal and cancel culture type problems. They're already trying the cancel culture stuff by shouting & whatnot for legislation, trying to out the site's principals, etc. Good luck with any of that.

In the internet era, legal stuff is a major headache. By that I mean it depends on the country you're in, and the country the site's host is in, and the country where the folks who make the site are in. Again in other words, it would tie lawyers up for years and most likely never get anywhere. Even if all those jurisdictional issues got sorted, they would then run into protected speech problems. Again, good luck.

If you take even just a little care, use a secondary browser that you can just delete, or encrypt and password protect all your devices, then that's where it most likely ends. And, most people forget, if you have a wifi router, it keeps logs, so delete those.

Unfortunately, explaining it like you are 5 might be tough! But I'll try and make it simple-ish.

On one hand, I don't think it would really be a problem in most cases... Depends on the details. Most people probably aren't going to have a thorough investigation about their death if the cause is obvious, because police are busy and suicide is not a crime in most countries.

But lets say for instance they find SN or something else that peaks their interest, and decide to start an investigation to find out more about where it came from for some reason... If LE were to take your computer and look into your search history, or contact your ISP etc, it would be pretty straightforward to see you have been here. Even if that happens I don't think there is much they can do to the site.

The only thing you could do to avoid it, is start using the internet in an anonymous way from now on, I'll attach pdf's for beginners on how to do that if you or anyone else is interested, but that might not help much for the trail you have already left.

There are ways to get rid of search history and logs on your computer, using a more private browser like mozilla, wiping your browsing history, and using a VPN are also simple ways to make being on here difficult for the normal person to see. A skilled person will still be able to find out what you've been up to if they really want to, unless you do some of the things in those pdf's.

Hope that helps anyway, best wishes!

Without going into the legalities of acquiring that info, the short answer is yes. However, if you use a Proxy, VPN, or TOR browser, your ISP has no idea what you are looking at on the net. I browse the site in private mode so everything disappears from my cache/history when I close the browser, but my ISP does know that I have visited here. If I had a more concrete date in the near future, I would probably be using a VPN as well. Without something locally on your PC to point them in the direction of SS, it's doubtful they would go to the lengths of requesting that info from your ISP unless foul play was suspected imo.

Let's just say a 'friend' of mine works in Digital Forensics.

For starters, nothing is ever truly deleted on any digital device.

Once said device has been physically destroyed, unless the circumstances are really suspicious, and suicide is determined, the authorities won't go through the immense legal and monetory expense of court-ordering your ISP to disclose your history. They've already got too much on their caseload to handle if it's clearly a suicide.

I'd say yes. ISPs are usually required by law to collect information such as search history to pass on to relevant authorities if asked for. Unless you're doing something that can prompt investigation you should be all right, but I would use a VPN just in case, especially since whoever has admin access to the router could potentially see history depending on if it is saved.

These all helped me understand things better even with my bean-sized brain, thanks all!

 

[Smart No More]

@GentleSoul Hey, do you know of modern phones running cyanogen by any chance? I was just looking through one of the pdf's you linked and it mentions cyanogen and as a cyanogen mod fan I found it went out of circulation after Oneplus stopped using it and development on cyanogen stopped. I was so gutted. There were a couple of phones that ran a version of cyanogen but they weren't the best and they're pretty outdated now. I'm wondering, as I've fallen behind on things if you know of a return to market and development?

I actually bought multiple second hand one plus ones for this reason but the handset has died out now and the firmware with it due to lack of development. I was forced to move on reluctantly. Oxygen is OK but its not cyanogen. Have to say, the dumbing down of operating systems/User interfaces has bothered me quite a bit as its played right into the hands of data mining and poor privacy/security.

 

[Shu]

@CrazyNihilist can answer best

 

[Al Cappella]

I just wanted to mention that VPNs aren't worth it when it comes to security, rather they create a false sense of security. Not least because they too will hand over info when subpoenaed. You're just paying a fee for nothing.

If you're really worried, just access this site from a live usb running Linux. Much easier to get rid of after, etc. Then, if you go to a library or someplace else that has wifi, there's not even a trace on your home router. But really, I see no need to go all that spy vs spy with this…

 

[summers]

@GentleSoul Hey, do you know of modern phones running cyanogen by any chance? I was just looking through one of the pdf's you linked and it mentions cyanogen and as a cyanogen mod fan I found it went out of circulation after Oneplus stopped using it and development on cyanogen stopped. I was so gutted. There were a couple of phones that ran a version of cyanogen but they weren't the best and they're pretty outdated now. I'm wondering, as I've fallen behind on things if you know of a return to market and development?

I actually bought multiple second hand one plus ones for this reason but the handset has died out now and the firmware with it due to lack of development. I was forced to move on reluctantly. Oxygen is OK but its not cyanogen. Have to say, the dumbing down of operating systems/User interfaces has bothered me quite a bit as its played right into the hands of data mining and poor privacy/security.

Nearly every modern phone has a version of LineageOS, which has superceded Cyanogen (except the Pixel 6/Pro). I highly recommend against it though - they are somewhat unstable and will kill the quality of the pic you take.

Here's Lineage for the OnePlus 9: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/rom-unofficial-beta-lemonade-12l-lineageos-19-1.4402663/

 

[Red Scare]

I just wanted to mention that VPNs aren't worth it when it comes to security, rather they create a false sense of security. Not least because they too will hand over info when subpoenaed. You're just paying a fee for nothing.

some vpn providers are overseas and are not required to answer to any subpoenas or LE from the usa

 

[summers]

On one hand, I don't think it would really be a problem in most cases... Depends on the details. Most people probably aren't going to have a thorough investigation about their death if the cause is obvious, because police are busy and suicide is not a crime in most countries.

Even if it is a crime, what is there to investigate. You dind't buy enough of any drug to distribute, so whoever you bough it from is probably too small of a dealer for them to care.

But lets say for instance they find SN or something else that peaks their interest, and decide to start an investigation to find out more about where it came from for some reason... If LE were to take your computer and look into your search history, or contact your ISP etc, it would be pretty straightforward to see you have been here. Even if that happens I don't think there is much they can do to the site.

In the US, LE would need a subpoena for an ISP to release your IP history. To get a subpoena, LE would probably have to show you used an illegal substance to kill yourself (and even then, they wouldn't bother). SN is legal in the US - so no real case to pursue.

 

[Al Cappella]

some vpn providers are overseas and are not required to answer to any subpoenas or LE from the usa

I read that, but wasn't ever sure about it. Not that it matters, unless there's significant criminal activity going on. Here it's moot.

 

[summers]

some vpn providers are overseas and are not required to answer to any subpoenas or LE from the usa

Supposedly private internet access (my vpn) doesn't log. They have gotten subpoenas, but didn't have any info to provide. I've never gotten a dmca notice when using them to torrent.

 

[Smart No More]

Nearly every modern phone has a version of LineageOS, which has superceded Cyanogen (except the Pixel 6/Pro). I highly recommend against it though - they are somewhat unstable and will kill the quality of the pic you take.

Here's Lineage for the OnePlus 9: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/rom-unofficial-beta-lemonade-12l-lineageos-19-1.4402663/

Thanks I'll look further into it.

 

[Kismet]

Hi, just wondering why you think they would look or care to look. Would they have a reason? Proton vpn would be your best bet though, they delete everything so even if they did get ordered to hand anything over, which I don't think they would, they wouldn't have anything. Proton email account is one of the most secure email accounts you can use as well. Use a tor browser as well. Your router also stores logs so don't forget about turning logging off

 

[summers]

@pdwiw awesome info about the router. I'm not overly concerned as I always use a VPN to connect to ss or download games, but for someone who doesn't, that's another base to cover.

For anyone who wants to check your router, most of the time just type 1.0.0.1 or 192.168.0.1 into the address bar of your browser. Login is almost always admin and pass should be on the router or check the manual for the default if you never changed it.

 

[GentleJerk]

@Smart No More sorry I don't know much about it. I've got a similar issue with boxes full of old tech that I don't know what to do with anymore and it's a shame. There's only so much re-learning that I'm willing to do as things evolve and change, feeling like a dummy these days.

Have to say, the dumbing down of operating systems/User interfaces has bothered me quite a bit as its played right into the hands of data mining and poor privacy/security.

This is definitely being done on purpose, intelligently, for those exact reasons. Not that I really care that much, but my Opsec is basically nonexistent rn and I'm just in the learning stages, hence those beginners pdf's I shared. Atm, I get it, I just haven't put any of it into action. Finding that part really hard lately. Wanted to seek refuge from windows and set up a partition to start running Linux like a week or two ago, and still haven't got around to starting that yet. I think I'm getting old

Proton email account is one of the most secure email accounts you can use as well

I thought so too but turns out it's not. Just started browsing Dread forum recently out of sheer curiosity, and found a lot of people seriously recommending against it. There's one called Tutanota which looks good and is free.

 

[CrazyNihilist]

Hi, just wondering why you think they would look or care to look. Would they have a reason? Proton vpn would be your best bet though, they delete everything so even if they did get ordered to hand anything over, which I don't think they would, they wouldn't have anything. Proton email account is one of the most secure email accounts you can use as well. Use a tor browser as well. Your router also stores logs so don't forget about turning logging off

A law enforcement suicide investigation would include social media and ISP records as standard investigation protocols. Their job is to determine if the person really committed suicide or if they were forced or coerced to do so by another person. I am just talking in the USA here, but the Patriot Act has made it so easy to get these records, the police don't need to do very much. After I left law enforcement, I worked in the Security department of a very large ISP provider covering multiple states. I had 40 employees who worked full time in the court order group to process all of the subpoenas. There are some good suggestions in this thread to protect your information, but those suggesting that they would not care to look are quite wrong in the USA. The police simply put the request into an on-line tool and the courts automatically approve for suicide investigations.

 

[summers]

A law enforcement suicide investigation would include social media and ISP records as standard investigation protocols. Their job is to determine if the person really committed suicide or if they were forced or coerced to do so by another person. I am just talking in the USA here, but the Patriot Act has made it so easy to get these records, the police don't need to do very much. After I left law enforcement, I worked in the Security department of a very large ISP provider covering multiple states. I had 40 employees who worked full time in the court order group to process all of the subpoenas. There are some good suggestions in this thread to protect your information, but those suggesting that they would not care to look are quite wrong in the USA. The police simply put the request into an on-line tool and the courts automatically approve for suicide investigations.

I think what people mean about not caring is that let's say you're on ss, they have your records. Ok, you committed suicide - so what? What are the cops going to do about it - absolutely nothing. Even if the prosecutor has the biggest hardon to take ss down, it won't make the slightest difference unless someone told that member directly and clearly to kill themselves. Telling someone how to kill themself is not a punishable offense.

 

[Bong-Hit-Transplant]

Wouldn't this require a judge ordered subpoena? And wouldn't that require a criminal investigation?

I guess to ELI5, unless police have any reason to suspect foul play, they're not going to go digging around your internet history to see if you were coerced.

 

[CrazyNihilist]

I think what people mean about not caring is that let's say you're on ss, they have your records. Ok, you committed suicide - so what? What are the cops going to do about it - absolutely nothing. Even if the prosecutor has the biggest hardon to take ss down, it won't make the slightest difference unless someone told that member directly and clearly to kill themselves. Telling someone how to kill themself is not a punishable offense.

This is true. The police would mention activity here, but could not take action unless someone here was trying to convice someone to do it. Even then, it would be against that individual, not this site. There are a lot of media reports about this site and how it needs to be shut down, so it could generate another bad media article about this site. I, for one, am greatful I found this site because I can interact with people in my shoes without judgement. Personally, this really helps me organize my thoughts and consider options.

Wouldn't this require a judge ordered subpoena? And wouldn't that require a criminal investigation?

I guess to ELI5, unless police have any reason to suspect foul play, they're not going to go digging around your internet history to see if you were coerced.

In the USA, all unattended deaths are immediately subject to a criminal investigation. They always suspect foul play until it is reasonably discounted. A simple suicide note, especially if typewritten, is not enough and they will look to see if someone coerced you to do it or if someone killed you and made it look like a suicide. I have personally investigated unattended deaths and the ISP and social media searches are always requested. The courts have always granted a court order for any unattended deaths I have ever been a part of.

 

[Bong-Hit-Transplant]

They always suspect foul play until it is reasonably discounted. A simple suicide note, especially if typewritten, is not enough and they will look to see if someone coerced you to do it or if someone killed you and made it look like a suicide. I have personally investigated unattended deaths and the ISP and social media searches are always requested. The courts have always granted a court order for any unattended deaths I have ever been a part of.

Wow. Thanks for correcting me. I had no idea.

So is it standard for every suicide to go through a criminal investigation of this kind? Or is it only if the family requests it / the situation seems really dodgy.

With the amount of suicides in the US, I can't imagine each one has detectives pouring through browser histories and cell phone data to rule out foul play.

 

[CrazyNihilist]

Wow. Thanks for correcting me. I had no idea.

So is it standard for every suicide to go through a criminal investigation of this kind? Or is it only if the family requests it / the situation seems really dodgy.

With the amount of suicides in the US, I can't imagine each one has detectives pouring through browser histories and cell phone data to rule out foul play.

Yes, they will go through it every time. They won't delve too far back, but I would expect every on-line record or interaction would be reviewed for at least 2 weeks prior to the death.

 

[Kismet]

A law enforcement suicide investigation would include social media and ISP records as standard investigation protocols. Their job is to determine if the person really committed suicide or if they were forced or coerced to do so by another person. I am just talking in the USA here, but the Patriot Act has made it so easy to get these records, the police don't need to do very much. After I left law enforcement, I worked in the Security department of a very large ISP provider covering multiple states. I had 40 employees who worked full time in the court order group to process all of the subpoenas. There are some good suggestions in this thread to protect your information, but those suggesting that they would not care to look are quite wrong in the USA. The police simply put the request into an on-line tool and the courts automatically approve for suicide investigations.

I see what you mean and I remember now hearing about a police department email is all they need to request certain information so I guess that's the patriot act that you mentioned. You probably want to use a vpn (that will take care of the internet provider logs), don't use chrome or edge or any of the big guy browsers, use an onion browser like tor.

Remember when you use tor for some dark side stuff, don't resize the browser window. Also, assume everything on your computer will be accessed very easily even if they don't have the password (it's very easy to reset a windows and used to be easier to reset a mac).

Use encryption and encrypt the entire hard-drive because user data and internet history is mixed in with the operating system (encrypting will give a few options). More encryption will use more resources and could slow older or maxed out computers tho. Encrypt the HD is smart in most cases regardless. Some third party apps are better than others as well.

Sorry for the long winded response and I'm not a computer expert so I may be off in a few things but if it was me, this is what I would do if I cared about hiding everything. I do encrypt my HD tho, in case my computer is stolen.

 

[Bong-Hit-Transplant]

I see what you mean and I remember now hearing about a police department email is all they need to request certain information so I guess that's the patriot act that you mentioned. You probably want to use a vpn (that will take care of the internet provider logs), don't use chrome or edge or any of the big guy browsers, use an onion browser like tor.

Remember when you use tor for some dark side stuff, don't resize the browser window. Also, assume everything on your computer will be accessed very easily even if they don't have the password (it's very easy to reset a windows and used to be easier to reset a mac).

Use encryption and encrypt the entire hard-drive because user data and internet history is mixed in with the operating system (encrypting will give a few options). More encryption will use more resources and could slow older or maxed out computers tho. Encrypt the HD is smart in most cases regardless. Some third party apps are better than others as well.

Sorry for the long winded response and I'm not a computer expert so I may be off in a few things but if it was me, this is what I would do if I cared about hiding everything. I do encrypt my HD tho, in case my computer is stolen.

I mean, at the end of the day, so what?

Worst case scenario, they find this website, maybe even your profile. What then? Authorities already know about this place. It's not like there'll be any proof of coercion. At most a family member joins one of those wacko Facebook groups to try and take this place off the web.

I mean, I understand why people wouldn't want their family knowing they visited here, but I just don't want anyone afraid that they're putting this place in danger by not using a Tor browser or something.

 

[Kismet]

I mean, at the end of the day, so what?

Worst case scenario, they find this website, maybe even your profile. What then? Authorities already know about this place. It's not like there'll be any proof of coercion. At most a family member joins one of those wacko Facebook groups to try and take this place off the web.

I mean, I understand why people wouldn't want their family knowing they visited here, but I just don't want anyone afraid that they're putting this place in danger by not using a Tor browser or something.

I agree, I could care less myself if the authorities found out, nothing illegal is going on so not much they can do. I would guess most people know that? I often wonder why I care about some of the things that keep me here because once I'm gone, it really doesn't matter anymore. I didn't mean to imply that using the site would get the site in trouble after we succeed in our own choice to ctb. When I was typing that reply, I was keeping in mind how to keep the authorities from finding out to save the family from finding out as the end goal and how I would do it

Once someone succeeds at ctb and the investigators do what they do and tell the families that their loved one was on this site, they might blame themselves and some do blame themselves for not knowing, not checking browser history or similar. I can somewhat understand a person wanting to keep that from happening. I found this site listening to a podcast of that sort of thing actually.

I don't have anyone that would care if I was gone so I actually admire people that do so I was just trying to offer some suggestions and I enjoy manipulating computers so it's right up my alley to talk about lol

 

[Al Cappella]

I'm just going to put a post-it note on my monitor that says "nothing to see here…" That should do it…