Discussion [Idea] If there was an experiment (psych, social, or w/e) to prove that suffering sucks..

[TAW122]

In previous threads (especially this one), I have talked about having an experiment to disprove pro-lifers' claim of life is always good, always worth living, etc., however, it all seemed to have flaws that I did not forsee (until others have mentioned and/or pointed out). Therefore, I'm making this thread more as a general outline of what I believe should happen or at least some idea of an experiment, test, or simulation that would convince pro-lifers that life isn't always good, it isn't always worth living, and/or that voluntary euthanasia and death with dignity is a valid potion.

With that said, here is my general idea (Note: Keep in mind I'm not perfect and there probably will never be a perfect experiment, simulation, or test-- at least not without it running afoul of ethics and moral violations. But it is at least worth exploring imho). For starters, we will presume that pro-lifers lack the experience and introspection needed to understand and comprehend what "suffering" really entails, therefore, one would need to simulate a similar scenario, or situation so they understand what it is. Next, we must make it realistic yet still within the bounds of ethics, morality, and legality (no everlasting harm or real harm-- this does not include hurt feelings). Finally, it should have some placebo as well to ensure that the experiment is consistent and not just by random chance.

What are your thoughts on my idea(s)? Does anyone have any remarks, suggestions, or perhaps even things that I may have never thought about perhaps? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[exhaustedanonymous]

I feel like many people understand suffering but something fundamental inside their brains can cope or handle with it differently than our brains can. I had a friend who tried to commit but actually fully recovered from his suicidal-ness and although his life is honestly so chaotic and tragic (honestly, his life is.. he's so strong. a fraction of what he has to deal with from outside issues alone would bring me to my knees within a second.) he just.. keeps going. To say that I don't think he understands suffering would be, in my opinion, disrespectful to him. He is now a prolifer and tried to get me committed on multiple occasions. There are many people who just don't get it at all but I think a lot do and just.. somehow.. the thing that clicked in our brains to say, "just take yourself out", will never click for them. I can't explain why and I won't try too. Or, maybe it unclicks for them. I don't know. I'm just trying to say, don't forget to take that into account.

 

[leeloosnow]

i know plenty of people that have been subjected to severe trauma and we're successful in repurposing to better their lives. That's definitely not possible in many cases, and I think there is a nature/nurture aspect resulting in the perfect shitstorm many of us find ourselves in. This is assuming the theoretical person has some level of intelligence and empathy, and straight up luck. Many such people turn into grifters or are ignorant to the level of being incapable of understanding that some ppls trauma may be ongoing and severe enough to result in the dire outlook on life overall, which seems to be a common thread among us. There is also the fact of 'hurt people hurt people' so some of them without solid moral self conducting may just turn into the less palatable subset of pro-lifers. They found jesus, they're better than you, and sign up to their OF while youre at it. I find this utterly repulsive.
we should also consider the fact that pushing either agenda- pro-life or pro-death, to be potentially harmful to the species overall. As most cases are, the truth lies somewhere in the middle (albeit less grounded in the ignorant demigraphic) so I try to remind myself that any of us could be subject to that pitfall. I'm not sure if my sleepless ramblings answer your question very well, but, there's a little of my 2c on egalitarian bodily autonomy

 

[Anonymus]

Suffering is necessary to value life, what is a waste is the excessive suffering that many people experience and that does not lead to the enjoyment of life but to a perpetual suffering that only death can alleviate.

I do not think it is good that people who have a life with all the ingredients to enjoy it experience in a sustained way a situation that would lead some of them to a situation of difficult exit.

The important thing is not that they understand us, but that they respect us.

//

El patiment és necessari per valorar la vida, el que és un despróposit és el patiment desmesurat que vivim moltes persones i que no du al gaudí de la vida sino a un sofriment perpetu que només la mort pot alleugir.

No crec que sigui bó que persones que tenen una vida amb tots els ingredients per gaudir-la experimentin de forma sostinguda una situació que els abocaría a alguns d'ells a una situació de difícil sortida.

El més important no és que ens entenguin, sinó que ens respectin.

 

[FuneralCry]

I think that the way to do an experiment would be making them endure some kind of prolonged torment for a certain amount of time, which stimulates the suffering that many suicidal people have to endure so they will have some kind of understanding. It would be insane to still hold delusional positive views about existence after being tortured by extreme physical pain, it certainly disgusts me how so many people are against suicide in a world where unlimited amounts of torture exist.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I guess I'm wondering if these people actually even WANT to know what it's like... I can't see many volunteering for it. Maybe therapists perhaps (and that would actually be VERY useful.) I don't know- I kind of feel like being willing to subject yourself to something like this would need to be preceeded by a real WANT to understand suicidal people- ie. to be empathetic towards them. I get the impression the target audience isn't all that empathetic!

Phrases like- suicide is the cowards way out/ suicide is selfish/ suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem are a-typical phrases I would say of such people and they are intended to cut off the subject and shame the person. I'm not so convinced that they WANT to see it from our point of view. Unless it was forced on them... that doesn't really sound ethical...

Plus- to an extent- this is a test. They would KNOW it was a test presumably- unless they were unaware! So- they know it will come to an end. Part of our trouble is that we see no end to this. ONLY if we make it ourselves.

I'd say it would take a reasonable amount of time to break down their coping skills until they are at a place where they feel they can no longer take it. They are presumably at a more positive stage initially in their outlook and coping skills. Some will even go in fighting- 'you can't break me' type attitude- 'I'll show all you suicidal 'cowards' how it's done' type of thing.

Still- I do know what you mean. We ALL hate being judged. I think we've all had that wish that someone ought to experience the things we have before spewing out something demeaning.

 

[TAW122]

Good responses so far and this isn't something that is easy so I will try to address each point.

I feel like many people understand suffering but something fundamental inside their brains can cope or handle with it differently than our brains can. I had a friend who tried to commit but actually fully recovered from his suicidal-ness and although his life is honestly so chaotic and tragic (honestly, his life is.. he's so strong. a fraction of what he has to deal with from outside issues alone would bring me to my knees within a second.) he just.. keeps going. To say that I don't think he understands suffering would be, in my opinion, disrespectful to him. He is now a prolifer and tried to get me committed on multiple occasions. There are many people who just don't get it at all but I think a lot do and just.. somehow.. the thing that clicked in our brains to say, "just take yourself out", will never click for them. I can't explain why and I won't try too. Or, maybe it unclicks for them. I don't know. I'm just trying to say, don't forget to take that into account.

That makes sense, maybe his SI went into overdrive. But on a serious note, yes, if he recovers that's good for him, but for him trying to get you committed, that is too far and also dangerous to your civil liberties. I certainly wouldn't remain on good terms let alone continue to befriend someone who tried to do that to me. I'd would cut said person out of my life.

i know plenty of people that have been subjected to severe trauma and we're successful in repurposing to better their lives. That's definitely not possible in many cases, and I think there is a nature/nurture aspect resulting in the perfect shitstorm many of us find ourselves in. This is assuming the theoretical person has some level of intelligence and empathy, and straight up luck. Many such people turn into grifters or are ignorant to the level of being incapable of understanding that some ppls trauma may be ongoing and severe enough to result in the dire outlook on life overall, which seems to be a common thread among us. There is also the fact of 'hurt people hurt people' so some of them without solid moral self conducting may just turn into the less palatable subset of pro-lifers. They found jesus, they're better than you, and sign up to their OF while youre at it. I find this utterly repulsive.
we should also consider the fact that pushing either agenda- pro-life or pro-death, to be potentially harmful to the species overall. As most cases are, the truth lies somewhere in the middle (albeit less grounded in the ignorant demigraphic) so I try to remind myself that any of us could be subject to that pitfall. I'm not sure if my sleepless ramblings answer your question very well, but, there's a little of my 2c on egalitarian bodily autonomy

Absolutely, there are many other factors involved and sometimes even suffering alone wouldn't be enough to get them to comprehend or respect our choices.

Suffering is necessary to value life, what is a waste is the excessive suffering that many people experience and that does not lead to the enjoyment of life but to a perpetual suffering that only death can alleviate.

I do not think it is good that people who have a life with all the ingredients to enjoy it experience in a sustained way a situation that would lead some of them to a situation of difficult exit.

The important thing is not that they understand us, but that they respect us.

The last sentence is something that I (and perhaps this community) would ultimately hope to achieve. If they can't understand us, they should (at the minimum) respect our decision.

I think that the way to do an experiment would be making them endure some kind of prolonged torment for a certain amount of time, which stimulates the suffering that many suicidal people have to endure so they will have some kind of understanding. It would be insane to still hold delusional positive views about existence after being tortured by extreme physical pain, it certainly disgusts me how so many people are against suicide in a world where unlimited amounts of torture exist.

I think this would be on the right track, but of course, realistically, it would be unlikely to be the exact same since it would be hard to generate an environment and/or situation harsh enough but not everlasting (real) damage to get the objective across.

I guess I'm wondering if these people actually even WANT to know what it's like... I can't see many volunteering for it. Maybe therapists perhaps (and that would actually be VERY useful.) I don't know- I kind of feel like being willing to subject yourself to something like this would need to be preceeded by a real WANT to understand suicidal people- ie. to be empathetic towards them. I get the impression the target audience isn't all that empathetic!

Phrases like- suicide is the cowards way out/ suicide is selfish/ suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem are a-typical phrases I would say of such people and they are intended to cut off the subject and shame the person. I'm not so convinced that they WANT to see it from our point of view. Unless it was forced on them... that doesn't really sound ethical...

Plus- to an extent- this is a test. They would KNOW it was a test presumably- unless they were unaware! So- they know it will come to an end. Part of our trouble is that we see no end to this. ONLY if we make it ourselves.

I'd say it would take a reasonable amount of time to break down their coping skills until they are at a place where they feel they can no longer take it. They are presumably at a more positive stage initially in their outlook and coping skills. Some will even go in fighting- 'you can't break me' type attitude- 'I'll show all you suicidal 'cowards' how it's done' type of thing.

Still- I do know what you mean. We ALL hate being judged. I think we've all had that wish that someone ought to experience the things we have before spewing out something demeaning.

Yes, there might be a need for 'deception' in such a experiment (after all, deception is used in some experiments in order to fulfill a certain objective or purpose). Assuming deception is on the table, it would have to be done in a way that can be effective to elicit an accurate response that otherwise would not be able to imitate or produce in a natural setting. Also, to not cause significant harm to the participant, and afterwards, the participant would be debriefed on the experiment.