Venting I thought prolifers couldn't get even more disingenous, but I was wrong

[TAW122]

Here is an example of a post by a pro-lifer posted to this person's (u/PragmaRose) thread.

The user is by the name of u/degustibus and he said:

Nobody here is forcing you to live. Nobody here is trying to make you feel guilty for thoughts and desires. Even when our lives are horrible, we have an innate will to live. It varies in strength among people, but it's quite real. This drive actually counteracts many suicidal impulses. As for your guilt over wanting to end the pain, you don't have guilt over taking an aspirin or Vicodin, but almost everybody would feel guilt about planning a murder. Your euphemism doesn't fool your own brain.
One of the best little books I ever read is by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning. He had been in a concentration camp under the Nazis and helped fellow prisoners. What he learned there helped him as a therapist the rest of his life. He would often ask a seriously depressed/suicidal patient, "Why haven't you killed yourself already?"
Quite often the answers you provide to this question will start you on the path of self discovery to living with greater peace. For me right now, I don't want to harm my young son. I also think it would hurt my mom a great deal. And there are some other relatives who would be aghast. But mostly my son and mom. I've also resigned myself largely to the idea that if I've made it this far, I can hang in there a bit longer.
Rather than ruminate about ending it, maybe we can brainstorm ways you could make your life a bit better??

I get he may genuinely want to help, but I see it more as an intellectual dishonesty. He starts off by claiming that nobody is forcing the OP to live (which is untrue - because if OP tried to CTB but failed or stopped before OP could actually attempt, then OP would be subject to a psych hold and possibly be committed, treated against OP's will). Also, as far as nobody guilt tripping, again that is another false projection because people are oftenly (even if subtly) hinting that CTB is not a solution, it's not an option, and oftenly hints at living or even microaggressions towards pro-choice people. I'll agree with one point though, we do have an innate will to live, which is called the survival instinct and no, it's not rational, but a part of our biological programming (which is the reason why a lot of us as a species still exist today).

It's astonishing how the person goes from making false claims and then near the end encourages OP to live. I seldom see such intellectual dishonesty and incongruity, but when I do, I feel like exposing the fallacy here.

 

[Meditation guide]

I seldom see such intellectual dishonesty and incongruity, but when I do, I feel like exposing the fallacy here.

I see a particular type of hidden narcissist, a holier than thou attitude that amounts to almost bragging about how altruistic that writer is by not wanting to hurt their family members, while implying how selfish the one is who is wanting to ctb. It's a huge ego boost to that writer to think they are better than, and trying to "help" by offering advice.

I've also resigned myself largely to the idea that if I've made it this far, I can hang in there a bit longer.
Rather than ruminate about ending it, maybe we can brainstorm ways you could make your life a bit better??

That writer can walk around for a few days all aglow thinking what a wonderful person they are for showing by example how to cope and be a better person like they think they are.

 

[woxihuanni]

Pro-lifers are shit people anyway. What disturbs me is seeing people force others to be a smurf as they die: loving and forgiving and positive vibes kind of insanity. It may be fine for their own selves if people around them are blameless, but to ask that of abused people dying because of abuse is... I don't know. I don't think engaging in discussion with these people would ever be fruitful.

 

[Deleted member 18655]

I swear: belief systems are brutal. Pro-lifers believe one thing and it's ingrained. Pro-choicers the same. Changing someone's epistemology, I think, requires more than just debate. It's psychological, spiritual, emotional and mental. I don't engage in debates like this because, first of all, my opinion doesn't matter and, second of all, I'm not going to shift someone's entire belief system. Especially over Reddit lol.

I'm going through this right now with being "woke." My belief in conspiracy theories, I've found, is a belief as deep as the ones your talking about here. I want it changed so I'm not in the minority and as conflicted as I am. It's brutal and it runs deep.

There's got to be a sort of art or science to changing someone's epistemology because what everyone's doing now is not working.

/myworthlesstwocents

 

[Dookieshoes]

That writer can walk around for a few days all aglow thinking what a wonderful person they are for showing by example how to cope and be a better person like they think they are.

Is this how you generally feel about the "pro-lifers?" I have been affected by loved ones who have caught the bus, and I don't think I'm shy about being happy with and wanting to live out the rest of my life. I've been reaching out to some, I've been challenging some, and I've been ignoring some. Do you view any attempt at connecting as disingenuous or just this specific person and their approach?

I ask this sincerely.... I don't want to be cast aside because I'm not of your ilk.

I want to connect with people. I don't want them to die, I don't want their families to see them die.

 

[Deleted member 18655]

@Dookieshoes If you are genuine (I'm suspect of everyone on the Internet), you are very cool in your approach to this place.

10 points for a cool username too

 

[GoneGoneGone]

If I hear about Viktor Frankl one more time I'll pull my hair out. Had he NOT survived, he would not have been able to ex-post concoct his whole theory that he survived because he had meaning. He'd just be dead. Easy to create a story in hindsight "it was meant to be."

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I'll admit, I want people to live. I want them to live lives full of joy, comfort, and peace. I don't want them to ever feel that life's challenges are too much to handle. I want them to experience laughter, and love, and intimacy, and fun. I want them to taste amazing foods, smell beautiful scents, admire incredible sights, and enjoy inspiring music.

But if their suffering is too much, I want them to feel empowered to act in the way that they believe brings them peace. We can't force our own perceptions of life on others. Just because we believe we could make it through a particular challenge and return to joyful living doesn't mean others feel that way. I find that to be a true sign of respect and love — understanding that others have the right to choose their own path.

 

[Dookieshoes]

yes. Every one of them has the chance to understand but instead they try to get their egos boosted by trying to talk someone out of it. Just accept that it's not your choice to make or your mission to try to talk someone out of it.

But that's exactly what brought me here... I didn't understand why one of my best friends took their own life. I hoped to find something that would connect the dots. What I found were some people who gave me opinions that made me start over with the way I thought about the situation. It's actually been really helpful in coming to terms with the reality of my own situation.

I want to do that for others if I can, present a different perspective on things. If it helps, great. If it doesn't, then maybe it was never going to.

I hope that makes sense.

I'm not sure why people think it's ok to but intsuch a personal thing for someone else aside from 1. not being able to separate their own happy life from the fact someone else is miserable to the point of wanting it to end, and 2. thinking they are entitled by virtue of being such a wonderful person to try to talk someone out of it.

And there's the assumption. I believe I'm a good person, but I'm not on a mission from God here. I'm coping with a loss and seeing if anyone wants to talk.

 

[mapletree]

I swear: belief systems are brutal. Pro-lifers believe one thing and it's ingrained. Pro-choicers the same. Changing someone's epistemology, I think, requires more than just debate. It's psychological, spiritual, emotional and mental. I don't engage in debates like this because, first of all, my opinion doesn't matter and, second of all, I'm not going to shift someone's entire belief system. Especially over Reddit lol.

I'm going through this right now with being "woke." My belief in conspiracy theories, I've found, is a belief as deep as the ones your talking about here. I want it changed so I'm not in the minority and as conflicted as I am. It's brutal and it runs deep.

There's got to be a sort of art or science to changing someone's epistemology because what everyone's doing now is not working.

/myworthlesstwocents

Im a fan of ray bradbury and there was a short story about a machine where you could live someone elses life or perspective for a day or something. I think about that short story a lot

 

[Deleted member 18655]

Im a fan of ray bradbury and there was a short story about a machine where you could live someone elses life or perspective for a day or something. I think about that short story a lot

Thanks! I'll check it out.

 

[Dookieshoes]

I'm going to give you a different perspective on things now. It's your own ego driving you to do this and nothing else no matter how much you tell yourself you are "just trying to help". You are giving yourself something to feel good about. Try to find some other way that does involve not trying to impose on others.

Your bias may be showing here... I didn't say what perspective I'm challenging, you are making that work for your own feelings.

This is a public forum. I'm not imposing. We're both just here talking about what we want to talk about. Your feelings of imposition are your own.

 

[Dookieshoes]

You said you are here talking people out of ctb'g. I consider that imposing. I did not mean you are imposing right now. I'm not sure if you really misunderstood or wanted to twist it into something I didn't mean.

No I did not. I said I wanted to give people opposing perspective... You filled in a blank. The first half of my post talked of my experience and how people offered differing opinions... I want to hear more about other people's experiences and offer an ear or an opposing viewpoint.

Maybe I misunderstood the whole prolife label? I'm 100% pro MY life.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I don't see intellectual dishonesty in the post. The OP said "nobody here," not "nobody at all." He was talking about the space the discussion was in. What was the environment, btw? Was it a pro-life or some other kind of forum? Hard to make a fully informed assessment without knowing the context.

The part in blue and the bit before it was no different than folks on this site who choose to live. The guy wasn't against suicide but had made a choice for himself to live based on relationships. The last sentence, the question, was indeed a persuasion, as was much of the post, but at least it was a realistic goal, not the rainbow farting of many prolifers.

 

[IrRegularjoe]

I get so confused when you guys talk about pro lifers. I always think of abortion.

 

[Dookieshoes]

This sounds straightforward to me.

Right.... I don't want to die... Hence maybe there's a misunderstanding here...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Maybe I misunderstood the whole prolife label? I'm 100% pro MY life.

Right.... I don't want to die... Hence maybe there's a misunderstanding here...

Are you pro-choice for others? The pro-life label means that there is no other option for the self or others, only life, no valid reason for choosing to suicide. Or, some are pro-life with only one exception, terminal illness.

 

[Dookieshoes]

Are you pro-choice for others? The pro-life label means that there is no other option for the self or others, only life, no valid reason for choosing to suicide. Or, some are pro-life with only one exception, terminal illness.

I can't say that it's off limits to anyone. I would prefer to see people be happy and prosper, but I get that life doesn't treat everyone the same. So I guess that yes as you've laid it out, I would be pro choice for others.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I can't say that it's off limits to anyone. I would prefer to see people be happy and prosper, but I get that life doesn't treat everyone the same. So I guess that yes as you've laid it out, I would be pro choice for others.

Well, the Rules and FAQ make it clear that this is a pro-choice forum, so there's no incongruency or discomfort with you being here if you walk the talk of your comment. So far, I haven't seen you not walk this talk. I haven't seen you give your preference for others supremacy over their right to define themselves and make their own choices, even if seemingly ill-considered or ill-advised.

 

[Life sucks]

I swear: belief systems are brutal. Pro-lifers believe one thing and it's ingrained. Pro-choicers the same. Changing someone's epistemology, I think, requires more than just debate. It's psychological, spiritual, emotional and mental. I don't engage in debates like this because, first of all, my opinion doesn't matter and, second of all, I'm not going to shift someone's entire belief system. Especially over Reddit lol.

I'm going through this right now with being "woke." My belief in conspiracy theories, I've found, is a belief as deep as the ones your talking about here. I want it changed so I'm not in the minority and as conflicted as I am. It's brutal and it runs deep.

There's got to be a sort of art or science to changing someone's epistemology because what everyone's doing now is not working.

/myworthlesstwocents

Belief systems are "Axioms" and necessary for humans to build their own logic but there is a big difference between Axioms themselves, someone believing in arithmetic as an axiom is rational unlike others who believe in real life topics like politics, economics, etc. In the first case, its a small and abstract axiom and its taken for granted being practically always true regardless of its own provability, in the second case its an arbitrarily large axiom, one can find contradictions way easily within those (let's say finding contradictions within capitalism, communism, etc), specially how natural languages are faulty and allows things to be misinterpreted and finding contradictions is inevitable. But let's take an example, "All humans should continue living" as an axiom is harmful without questioning because it will force everyone to live regardless of their problems. If someone question this axiom, it would be falsified by counterexamples like vegetative state and chronic illnesses. "Not all humans should continue living" or "some humans shouldn't continue living" would be the conclusion. The number of humans is arbitrarily large so its better to let them decide by themselves rather than a faulty statement thats proven to be insufficient. (Also its impossible to prove something for 7 billion+ and its better to make a different case and analysis for everyone which leads to a different choice for every individual)

Its not that belief systems are brutal by themselves but life itself is brutal, the limitation of belief systems is because of how almost all Axioms would be contradictory (they only few Axioms outside of that are abstract/mathematical/scientific).

Its proven how humans can't know everything and the axiomatic systems would always lead to a sort of inconsistency. (Incompleteness theorems, Halting problem, etc). Living in an inherently self-contradictory life and those limitations is whats really brutal. One could stay within life and develop it (infinite and endless process) by trying to avoid contradictions or say its futile and quit. Both cases while acknowledging the fault of life is rational unlike not acknowledging it and forcing everyone in the loop (and no, its not always progressing and avoiding contradictions in humans case).

 

[TAW122]

I don't see intellectual dishonesty in the post. The OP said "nobody here," not "nobody at all." He was talking about the space the discussion was in. What was the environment, btw? Was it a pro-life or some other kind of forum? Hard to make a fully informed assessment without knowing the context.

The part in blue and the bit before it was no different than folks on this site who choose to live. The guy wasn't against suicide but had made a choice for himself to live based on relationships. The last sentence, the question, was indeed a persuasion, as was much of the post, but at least it was a realistic goal, not the rainbow farting of many prolifers.

I guess he might be milder than other prolifers, but yeah definitely the last sentence was like a nudge to the OP to try to live life (certainly had a pro-lifey vibe to it, at least that's how I perceive it). The thread was on the SW subreddit. Occasionally, I oftenly find threads or posts that stick out like a sore thumb and I can't help but to expose their follies.

 

[ladolcemorte]

I really hate that question, "why haven't you killed yourself yet", or the variation "what has kept you alive so far?". Shrinks and counsellors always ask this, and the suggestion seems to be "if you have stayed alive thus far, you can keep on doing so". But the problem for me is that while I have stayed alive thus far, I don't feel like I can keep going much longer. I have tried so hard for so long that I am running out of the energy to keep trying.

 

[TAW122]

I really hate that question, "why haven't you killed yourself yet", or the variation "what has kept you alive so far?". Shrinks and counsellors always ask this, and the suggestion seems to be "if you have stayed alive thus far, you can keep on doing so". But the problem for me is that while I have stayed alive thus far, I don't feel like I can keep going much longer. I have tried so hard for so long that I am running out of the energy to keep trying.

Yes, it is very much a goading tactic as well as a shame/silencing tactic (2 in 1) done to shut the patient down about his/her problems (invalidating and minimizing them) while also trying to fish out additional information from them. In many of my anti-therapy, anti-psychiatry threads, the common theme between all of them is that it doesn't help me (at best) and may make my situation even worse (at worst). In a nutshell, I suppose I could say that most of it (based on my experiences over my lifetime with no less than a dozen professionals) is about getting me to accept something that I don't wish to accept, dismiss & invalidate my goals, dreams, objectives, and/or straight up gaslighting, guilt-tripping, and shaming for behaving or thinking a certain way. Also, don't forget indoctrination and trying to beat down the be a good wage-slave, contribute to a society (which is fucked up), don't question us (but we will question you haha), and more.

It is my experience (and I don't recall the source immediately, but someone somewhere said) that mental health professionals and similar kinds of people are mainly tasked to enforce and keep the social order for society and government (paraphrased but something similar to that sentiment) as well as suppress and censor dissent (unpopular opinions and things that may expose the system for what it is). They do this by always scanning and fishing for signs that a patient may be a threat to oneself or others (which has a wide latitude of what constitutes is) and mainly just to keep the person indoctrinated.

I could go on, but that's all for another thread (or have already been mentioned in other threads already).