FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Hey be(e)autiful people. I'm new, and I wanted to take a second to offer my own story with trying to ctb, and where I'm going from here.

So a not-so-tl;dr on my background: I spent my entire teen years deeply depressed. I had no idea why at the time, but I hated myself and had no real vision for who or what I wanted to be. Into my 20's I finally realized that I'm trans. I denied it for a few years, but it's not something you can bury forever. Transitioning was the best decision I every made in my life, and I was happy to finally have a vision for who I wanted to be. To add to this, I got a great new job, my own apartment, an awesome doctor and therapist. As part of my transition, I really kicked my weight-loss efforts into overdrive. I suffered from childhood obesity, and I never really had the motivation to actually kick it entirely.

As I really started to lose weight, I came to the realization that ended my dream. Skin. The fucking skin. When you're too heavy for too long, your skin doesn't shrink when you lose weight. The end results are hideous. I'm down 60 pounds off peak, with 20-30 pounds left to get to the upper-end of my goals. Sadly, my body is already fucked, and it's only going to get worse as I continue losing weight. Plastic surgery can help, but it's expensive, leaves massive scars, and is ultimately a highly-flawed process that has barely evolved since its inception. No matter how much effort, money I put in, I'll never have anywhere near the body I could have had. I tried so hard to find hope, but there's none to be found. It seems like all the other trans girls my age are thin and gorgeous, something I'll never get to have. Every time I see them, it's like a dagger into my heart. I don't want to live my life watching others have a happiness that I'll never know. Having weighed my options, I ultimately decided to CTB - a final, "fuck you" to my body, and an end to the mourning of the life I'll never get to have.

My original plan was to go out by firearm. I put in a purchase for a Glock 21 Gen5. The ordering process in WA isn't too bad - it's a two-week wait and an online course that I completed in about a minute. I wrote my notes, made arrangements where possible, and waited. After the two-week period, I picked up the Glock along with a box of hollowpoints. With my new die-button in my hands, I set my sights for the following weekend and continued on until that point. I printed out my notes, leaving them on the table in my studio before retreating to the bathroom. The first attempt was a wash - I didn't even put the gun to my head. I called 988 with the intention of telling them that I was CTB'ing so that my family wouldn't be the first ones to find me (I live alone, but they're close enough to check on me if I go missing.) Sadly, the conversation with 988 went on a little too long, and I ended up cancelling my plans. I talked to them, talked to a local mobile crisis. Nothing came of this - no detention, no hospital visit. A small blunder, but I'd kept my ticket out, so I just needed to choose a new date.

That new date was two days later. I did my previous routine, retreating to the bathroom. I put down a towel, sat on the floor, put on some music, and scheduled a text to 988 to go out in two hours after that point. After this, I put the Glock to my head. I am experienced with firearms, an ode to my dad being somewhat of a redneck. This was a problem. I knew guns, I knew the moment I pulled the trigger, it was going to be a loud, violent death. Realistically, I wouldn't remember it at all, but the anticipation of that, "bang!" stopped me from going through with my plans. (Hindsight says I could've tried drinking or smoking weed to calm my nerves.) For some fucking reason that I still don't understand, I called mobile crisis and told them to come get my gun. I wasn't going to be able to use the fucker anyways, so what's the harm in that?

Turns out the harm was the police coming to my house. They were nice enough, I guess? They took my firearm and escorted me to the hospital (I work at this hospital, and nobody there really knew I was transitioning until now. Terrific!) The experience at the hospital sucked. It was noisy, bright, and not particularly comfy. I felt like I was being punished for having the audacity to actually reach out to somebody for help. My county's crisis responders tried talking me into voluntary admission, which I refused on the basis that my issues are not strictly psychiatric and are beyond helping. We agreed on a safety plan and they ran off. I was then informed that the more serious crisis responders would be getting involved to try and involuntarily detain me. This turned into a fucking 12-hour slog where I lied through my teeth and had to get my sister involved to get out without being shoved into a fucking cage. I was exhausted at this point, having not slept for 30 hours.

Since that point, I researched my alternatives. I came across this forum, came across SN, and was able to find a link to SD through a different forum site. I made my order for SN, which I'm waiting on now. My current plan is to get the SN, go to a walk-in clinic for some antiemetics, and gear up for round three. I won't make the same mistake that I did last time - I don't intend to be held against my will and sleep deprived again. I won't talk to my friends or therapist about it anymore because it will only bring them pain and potentially create problems for me. Instead, I'm writing write this post, both to get things off my chest and to maybe offer a cautionary tale to anyone that stumbles across it.

Thanks to anyone who read this far. I appreciate all of you.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Mini-update: my SN from SD shipped! It's the lower-grade stuff, because the food-grade is out-of-stock and I'm paranoid that SD will go away or something before they fulfill my food-grade order. I still have an order in for the food-grade stuff, but I will at least have a fallback plan if it never arrives.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
37,980
I imagine it must be a relief to have access to the SN, best wishes.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
I imagine it must be a relief to have access to the SN, best wishes.
It most definitely is. I was paranoid that, given my luck, the federal ban would clear the senate before I could actually get something shipped out to me. I'm thankful that I at least have something now, even if it's not the quality I wanted.
 
mistymoo

mistymoo

Im going to be apart of the 27 club
May 30, 2024
148
Ive also lost a significant amount of weight and i have a LOT of extra skin. How you considered tattoos?
 
FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Ive also lost a significant amount of weight and i have a LOT of extra skin. How you considered tattoos?
Tattoos would be nice for stretch marks or hyperpigmentation, but they wouldn't do much for the physical deformity part unfortunately. Nothing short of plastic surgery could make a difference, and sadly even the best plastic surgeons can only do so much. Trust me - I've become far more familiar with the field than I ever would've liked.
 
pthnrdnojvsc

pthnrdnojvsc

Extreme Pain is much worse than people know
Aug 12, 2019
2,580
It most definitely is. I was paranoid that, given my luck, the federal ban would clear the senate before I could actually get something shipped out to me. I'm thankful that I at least have something now, even if it's not the quality I wanted.
When are they going to pass it vote on it in the Senate?

The U.S. is the worst country , the least freedom , most oppressive. Only country passing a law to ban sale of SN to individuals. The ny Times said ban SN in that article it and they are about too
 
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Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
548
Man, losing that gun must have been awful. You could be dead now if you had it.

Will you ever get it back?
 
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AvwJ

AvwJ

Member
Apr 16, 2024
22
i haven't personally made any leaps to attempt to CTB yet. it pains me so much that you've gotten to that point and are still here struggling. but, your experience resonates with me deeply and it was nice to hear someone feel so similarly.

i've hated myself as well for practically all my life because i spent most of it morbidly obese. out of high school i finally started making changes and lost the weight. i started to feel proud of myself for making some great progress and felt like i could finally envision for myself a future that i could be happy in. i reconnected with the friends i previously felt i didn't deserve just because i was fat, finally had a social and dating life, a great job...

but eventually i came to the same realizations as you that i could never have a "normal" body. i did go through a couple surgeries to remove excess skin, but indeed there were scars left and it didn't look exactly natural. nothing was ever good enough. i get complimented quite often but i never believe anyone. i ended up developing eating disorders, struggling so much with body dysmorphia, and wanting to get even more surgeries. eventually i realized i might just not be able to ever shake those thoughts and feelings that i am fat and ugly.

i know we are our own harshest critics. objectively i know that people don't see me as the monster i feel i am. i've had boyfriends that have been nothing but loving and supportive of me yet i can't see at all what they do and i just feel like they're lying to not hurt my feelings and they just settle with me. then i push them away cause my insecurities stop me from trusting them.

i guess i just want to say, i know you are beautiful. i wish you could see it too. you put in an incredible amount of work to be so. you deserve to be happy with and proud of yourself.

i soooo very truly hope you get to somewhere where you can feel at peace. i'm working on it too.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
When are they going to pass it vote on it in the Senate?
No clue. Bill tracker shows it as being in committee right now. Once it's done there, it'll go for a vote in the senate, and then off the to president's desk. Could be days, weeks, months, never. Nobody will know until it happens.

Man, losing that gun must have been awful. You could be dead now if you had it.

Will you ever get it back?
I'm not that bummed. I had my chance to use it, I squeezed, but I couldn't will myself against the anticipation of the moment the hammer would strike. It's in my sister's possession now, which is fine by me. I've learned that I probably can't go through with using a firearm due to the respect I've developed for them. If I ever change my mind, I can just buy another one (I didn't have my rights revoked), but I'm not planning on that right now.

i soooo very truly hope you get to somewhere where you can feel at peace. i'm working on it too.
I'm not going to quote your entire message, but I read and appreciate the whole thing. I'm happy I'm not alone in this particular case, though I imagine we may (or may not) have slightly different backgrounds. I'm proud of you for your weight loss journey and for having the bravery to have body contouring done. I did a shitload of research to try and find a plastic surgeon who could get results I could be happy with. Although I think I probably found the best body contouring surgeon on the continent, the limitations of plastics right now just wouldn't allow me to have a body I'd personally be happy with. Plus, the stress, the money, the scarring, it just seems futile.

As for scarring, I don't know if you're here to CTB or to offer support to others. If you're planning on sticking around long-term, keep an eye on verteporfin for scar revisions. It's still in early FDA fuckery right now, but it might at least offer a dim hope for plastic surgery patients in the years to come.

Thanks for your kindness, truly.
 
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LostSoul1965

Mage
Apr 15, 2024
510
Mini-update: my SN from SD shipped! It's the lower-grade stuff, because the food-grade is out-of-stock and I'm paranoid that SD will go away or something before they fulfill my food-grade order. I still have an order in for the food-grade stuff, but I will at least have a fallback plan if it never arrives.
Good news! I got an e-mail that my food grade shipped so I'm sure your's will too.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Good news! I got an e-mail that my food grade shipped so I'm sure your's will too.
Yep, I saw that too. I'm surprised given the original ETA they sent you, but I'm not complaining. :)
 
Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
548
No clue. Bill tracker shows it as being in committee right now. Once it's done there, it'll go for a vote in the senate, and then off the to president's desk. Could be days, weeks, months, never. Nobody will know until it happens.


I'm not that bummed. I had my chance to use it, I squeezed, but I couldn't will myself against the anticipation of the moment the hammer would strike. It's in my sister's possession now, which is fine by me. I've learned that I probably can't go through with using a firearm due to the respect I've developed for them. If I ever change my mind, I can just buy another one (I didn't have my rights revoked), but I'm not planning on that right now.


I'm not going to quote your entire message, but I read and appreciate the whole thing. I'm happy I'm not alone in this particular case, though I imagine we may (or may not) have slightly different backgrounds. I'm proud of you for your weight loss journey and for having the bravery to have body contouring done. I did a shitload of research to try and find a plastic surgeon who could get results I could be happy with. Although I think I probably found the best body contouring surgeon on the continent, the limitations of plastics right now just wouldn't allow me to have a body I'd personally be happy with. Plus, the stress, the money, the scarring, it just seems futile.

As for scarring, I don't know if you're here to CTB or to offer support to others. If you're planning on sticking around long-term, keep an eye on verteporfin for scar revisions. It's still in early FDA fuckery right now, but it might at least offer a dim hope for plastic surgery patients in the years to come.

Thanks for your kindness, truly.

What about acquiring the gun and also using SN as well?
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
What about acquiring the gun and also using SN as well?
I don't know what good the gun would be in that case. I can buy a new one at any point, but it'd probably be as a last-resort to see whether I can manage it after drinking alcohol to calm my nerves enough. My hope right now is that SN will be sufficient for my third attempt.

I can see a scenario where I survive an SN attempt, go to the hospital, and subsequently have my firearm rights taken away. But, as mentioned above, I'm really going to do my best to not make the mistake of going to the hospital again, since the last round of doing so was fucking miserable.
 
Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
548
I don't know what good the gun would be in that case. I can buy a new one at any point, but it'd probably be as a last-resort to see whether I can manage it after drinking alcohol to calm my nerves enough. My hope right now is that SN will be sufficient for my third attempt.

I can see a scenario where I survive an SN attempt, go to the hospital, and subsequently have my firearm rights taken away. But, as mentioned above, I'm really going to do my best to not make the mistake of going to the hospital again, since the last round of doing so was fucking miserable.

But you could do the SN in a planned, and effective way, and after a little while of the sn taking effect, you could shoot yourself and therefore it makes it even less likely of survival.

Gun is almost certain death anyway, but incase you somehow survive the SN could finish you off.

Im considering SN + jump.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
But you could do the SN in a planned, and effective way, and after a little while of the sn taking effect, you could shoot yourself and therefore it makes it even less likely of survival.

Gun is almost certain death anyway, but incase you somehow survive the SN could finish you off.

Im considering SN + jump.
Trouble is, as mentioned in my post, I had a lot of trouble actually pulling the trigger. It's less so the dying part, and moreso the anticipation that the sudden, "bang!" that ultimately gets to me. I'm not too concerned about the odds of survival with SN - the dose I'm planning will be more than sufficient and, if I survive, I'll have plenty left for another attempt.
 
Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
548
Trouble is, as mentioned in my post, I had a lot of trouble actually pulling the trigger. It's less so the dying part, and moreso the anticipation that the sudden, "bang!" that ultimately gets to me. I'm not too concerned about the odds of survival with SN - the dose I'm planning will be more than sufficient and, if I survive, I'll have plenty left for another attempt.
With your previous SN attempts, what did you experience? Any pain? Suffering?
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
With your previous SN attempts, what did you experience? Any pain? Suffering?
I attempted with a gun, not with SN. My SN just shipped out this week, and I'm not expecting to attempt with it until next month.
 
DefinitelyReady

DefinitelyReady

*perpetually annoyed*
Mar 14, 2024
1,180
No clue. Bill tracker shows it as being in committee right now. Once it's done there, it'll go for a vote in the senate, and then off the to president's desk. Could be days, weeks, months, never. Nobody will know until it happens.


I'm not that bummed. I had my chance to use it, I squeezed, but I couldn't will myself against the anticipation of the moment the hammer would strike. It's in my sister's possession now, which is fine by me. I've learned that I probably can't go through with using a firearm due to the respect I've developed for them. If I ever change my mind, I can just buy another one (I didn't have my rights revoked), but I'm not planning on that right now.


I'm not going to quote your entire message, but I read and appreciate the whole thing. I'm happy I'm not alone in this particular case, though I imagine we may (or may not) have slightly different backgrounds. I'm proud of you for your weight loss journey and for having the bravery to have body contouring done. I did a shitload of research to try and find a plastic surgeon who could get results I could be happy with. Although I think I probably found the best body contouring surgeon on the continent, the limitations of plastics right now just wouldn't allow me to have a body I'd personally be happy with. Plus, the stress, the money, the scarring, it just seems futile.

As for scarring, I don't know if you're here to CTB or to offer support to others. If you're planning on sticking around long-term, keep an eye on verteporfin for scar revisions. It's still in early FDA fuckery right now, but it might at least offer a dim hope for plastic surgery patients in the years to come.

Thanks for your kindness, truly.
Would going to another country give you more opportunities for surgeries?
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Would going to another country give you more opportunities for surgeries?
No. The problem isn't my ability to access surgeries; I've looked both in the US and elsewhere and can afford the costs in either case. The trouble is that even the best surgeons can't get results that I would be totally happy with. It just isn't possible with modern plastic surgery techniques.
 
DefinitelyReady

DefinitelyReady

*perpetually annoyed*
Mar 14, 2024
1,180
No. The problem isn't my ability to access surgeries; I've looked both in the US and elsewhere and can afford the costs in either case. The trouble is that even the best surgeons can't get results that I would be totally happy with. It just isn't possible with modern plastic surgery techniques.
I thought another country would be more experimental, and would also get you more "lifts" for you buck than the US would allow :/
I mean once you get down to your lowest weight, or maybe your lowest weight you can maintain, it won't be perfect but you'll feel like 80% better I would think, at least. I've seen shows. My body needs it so I get it. Plus, 80% better than now I think would give you enough confidence to know that the person you're with is not lying to you.
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
I thought another country would be more experimental, and would also get you more "lifts" for you buck than the US would allow :/

Unfortunately, most surgeons in, say, Mexico or South America tend to be what I call, "chop-shop" surgeons. They're fine, qualified for what they do, but their methods are archaic and their scar care tends to leave a lot to be desired. There are good surgeons in places like Mexico, they just aren't quite to the same level as the one I've scouted out in Texas (Dr. Bradley Hubbard, if anyone is curious.)

That doesn't mean I haven't entirely written off going out-of-country. There are benefits that would be nice, namely the cost savings. Another motivation for going out-of-country would be to find a surgeon who would be willing to inject Verteporfin IM following the surgeries, but that's speculation and there's a good chance that any qualified and well-credentialed surgeon, regardless of country, wouldn't even entertain the idea.

Plus, 80% better than now I think would give you enough confidence to know that the person you're with is not lying to you.
What ultimately gets me is that remaining 20%. My body will never be as good as it could've been had I never struggled with obesity in the first place, no matter how many surgeries I get. I'll have that failure looming over me for my entire life, something that I'm just not mentally prepared to deal with. I don't know, it's just... a lot.
 
DefinitelyReady

DefinitelyReady

*perpetually annoyed*
Mar 14, 2024
1,180
Unfortunately, most surgeons in, say, Mexico or South America tend to be what I call, "chop-shop" surgeons. They're fine, qualified for what they do, but their methods are archaic and their scar care tends to leave a lot to be desired. There are good surgeons in places like Mexico, they just aren't quite to the same level as the one I've scouted out in Texas (Dr. Bradley Hubbard, if anyone is curious.)

That doesn't mean I haven't entirely written off going out-of-country. There are benefits that would be nice, namely the cost savings. Another motivation for going out-of-country would be to find a surgeon who would be willing to inject Verteporfin IM following the surgeries, but that's speculation and there's a good chance that any qualified and well-credentialed surgeon, regardless of country, wouldn't even entertain the idea.


What ultimately gets me is that remaining 20%. My body will never be as good as it could've been had I never struggled with obesity in the first place, no matter how many surgeries I get. I'll have that failure looming over me for my entire life, something that I'm just not mentally prepared to deal with. I don't know, it's just... a lot.
Yeah I get the chop-chop. It's sort of the lesser of two evils. I get the perfectionism too... I've completely ruined my body. I don't know how old you are, but if I could get my stomach/torso, arms, and legs to 80%, bless me with fixing my boobs, I'd get some muscle tone and a tan, and lingerie can hide a lot. Plus you've dealt with shit. You weren't born with an empty brain and healthy circumstances that didn't cause you to over eat, and then add on some sad injections so that your hips start just below your belly button, some fake boobs, a nose job, bloated fillers, etc.. Do you want to be an obviously insecure thirsty IG hoe? Cardi b looked so cute without her nose job. What if you were in an accident and you had multiple surgeries and had all this scarring up and down your body? That 20% you'd have to work on for you. Hell I had cute guys when I was fat, but it was me who pushed them away. Would I if I were 80% than I am now? If things were different in my life, I'd have some hoe-catching up to do...
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Yeah I get the chop-chop. It's sort of the lesser of two evils. I get the perfectionism too... I've completely ruined my body. I don't know how old you are, but if I could get my stomach/torso, arms, and legs to 80%, bless me with fixing my boobs, I'd get some muscle tone and a tan, and lingerie can hide a lot. Plus you've dealt with shit. You weren't born with an empty brain and healthy circumstances that didn't cause you to over eat, and then add on some sad injections so that your hips start just below your belly button, some fake boobs, a nose job, bloated fillers, etc.. Do you want to be an obviously insecure thirsty IG hoe? Cardi b looked so cute without her nose job. What if you were in an accident and you had multiple surgeries and had all this scarring up and down your body? That 20% you'd have to work on for you. Hell I had cute guys when I was fat, but it was me who pushed them away. Would I if I were 80% than I am now? If things were different in my life, I'd have some hoe-catching up to do...
Goodness LOL I think I'd be satisfied with a tomboyish frame, if anything. (Though it'd be nice to have an ass that isn't totally flat, but that might be unavoidable if I stay alive and go ahead with a body lift.) I'm mid-20's, for reference, which makes me feel even worse since most people I see getting body lifts are in their 30s-40s. Not to say there's anything wrong with the age, I just feel completely isolated from relating to people in my own age bracket.
 
DefinitelyReady

DefinitelyReady

*perpetually annoyed*
Mar 14, 2024
1,180
Goodness LOL I think I'd be satisfied with a tomboyish frame, if anything. (Though it'd be nice to have an ass that isn't totally flat, but that might be unavoidable if I stay alive and go ahead with a body lift.) I'm mid-20's, for reference, which makes me feel even worse since most people I see getting body lifts are in their 30s-40s. Not to say there's anything wrong with the age, I just feel completely isolated from relating to people in my own age bracket.
Well having always had boobs, I wouldn't know how to hold my arms or stand lol. I mean I was getting near flat when I was 108lb; and I can't be flat because my butt is flat. I'd be a double-sided pancake!😣 Back to when my sister mocked me with, "You're as flat as a pancake!" Haha, cut-to-me stealijg her favorite floral bras and actually filling them out!😤
But my butt, seriously, it's practically concave....😑

I think it's totally better to do in your 20s. Your skin is in better shape. The faster you do it, the faster you can get to stuff. Do as much as you can in your 20s because 30s SUCKS. You'll never be in your 20s again... I mean so many people would give their pinky or pinky toe or more for skin removal surgery. I say do it! You'll feel like more of the group when you can go hangout in your age bracket wearing clothes you don't have to worry about looking bulky because of excess skin. Have you seen the skin removal shows on TLC? I mean I can tell you'll scope out your dr's work but they have some really nice results whether they've able to remove a lot of a little. Have you checked around the country? That's exciting. We want to see before and after :)
 
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suffering_mo

Specialist
May 8, 2024
354
@FallFromGrace Do you have actual experience with a gun or just familiar with them because of your dad? If you were in an extremely desperate situation, physically and mentally, do you
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
@FallFromGrace Do you have actual experience with a gun or just familiar with them because of your dad? If you were in an extremely desperate situation, physically and mentally, do you
Dunno what the second half of your comment was going to be, but yes, I have actual experience target shooting and hunting. Though, it has admittedly been a while since I've used one - most of my shooting in recent years has been with a bow.
 
FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
So, my SN order arrived today. I don't know which one this is, but it feels good to at least have some of it ready now. I've left it sealed and enclosed it in a second bag for safe-keeping until the promised day. The bag is tiny compared to what I was expecting - it's funny to think that this little amount is enough to kill me 5+ times over.
 
R2DNico

R2DNico

New Member
May 6, 2024
2
So, my SN order arrived today. I don't know which one this is, but it feels good to at least have some of it ready now. I've left it sealed and enclosed it in a second bag for safe-keeping until the promised day. The bag is tiny compared to what I was expecting - it's funny to think that this little amount is enough to kill me 5+ times over.
Can I get a PM of the source? I've been trying to get my hands on some and I really don't want to synthesize it myself and risk messing it up
 
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FallFromGrace

FallFromGrace

Too Little, Too Late
Jun 4, 2024
44
Can I get a PM of the source? I've been trying to get my hands on some and I really don't want to synthesize it myself and risk messing it up
From someone, eventually. You're rather new (I'm not even sure you can DM yet?), and I don't know the norms for giving out SN source information on here anyways, so it'll be a no from me right now. Sorry.
 

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