How to be proven wrong when my mind is made up to CTB.

[AmIForReal]

I kind of gradually am making my mind up to CTB.
Some here are truly suffering whereas I am not. I would not even call myself depressed.
This life is just not working out. I might think of a nice future but chances of getting there are rather slim of where I stand now and who I am. At 51 I realize I have let myself stray too far from the norm (lack of social skills, anxiety, addiction, no kids, no partner … ), and I don't see myself getting back on track within a reasonable time frame.
So gradually ctb is becoming a logical conclusion.

But ... I might be wrong. That's why I am posting this in the recovery forum. I looked at the resources but could not find a resources that would help me challenge my 'logic'. I mean I feel a therapist will not engage in such a reasoning with ctb as conclusion. As they might not succeed, forcing them almost to acknowledge my conclusion (which I think they will want to avoid at all cost). Or the discussion might even help me to close holes in my argument.

It's like I still have some hope to be proven wrong. But how?

 

[chester]

It looks like your thoughts to kill yourself are driven by reason. If you're truly open to changing your mind, then it's a good thing, because it takes much more than logic to do it. And it's coming from someone who took the exit bag off of his head half-conscious, several times, so I know what I'm talking about. The best advice I can think of is give yourself time. Not a few weeks, six months at least, preferably more. I suggest it, because I'm doing the same thing. I also take into account there might be a reason for me to live, I just don't know it yet. By reason to live I don't mean a reason against killing myself but a genuine reason to want to live. I'm not sitting idly though, I'm exploring my options and trying to keep an open mind. I still wish I was dead, but it's not time to decide yet. It wouldn't be right to not give myself a chance to change my mind. I'm going to die anyway someday, so the worst that can happen is I'm gonna wait for it a bit longer.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

So, my 30th birthday was on May 29th this year. I had settled for about two months leading up to my birthday that I was going to CTB. But I've had ideation since I was little. Succinctly, my reasoning was the same as yours, my life just wasn't working out. Life did not feel good, I did not want it to continue, and in fact my 30 years of being alive and things not working out despite my efforts, was actually evidence to me that trying to live was a mistake. I would only stop making the mistake of being alive if I just ctb.

At the moment of the attempt, if I had actually died, then everything I ever did or didn't do in my life would have been set in stone at the time of death. Coming away from the attempt, the simplicity of that has just kind of stuck with me. No matter when I actually do die, I will only ever have experienced or accomplished a limited number of things in my life. There will always be infinitely many experiences I will never have, and that holds true even now if I suddenly became immortal. As long as time still goes forward, there's still unhad experiences to be had. And anything I "accomplish" can very easily be taken away, broken, or become meaningless to me. But if I find goals that are meaningful to me and I choose to work towards them, then that is a tiny bit of evidence to me that, at least sometimes, I can live authentically, intentionally, purposefully, and not just ctb. It's a work in progress, and I may never reach the "end", but if I'm okay that eventually I will die and that will decisively set in stone all I've done and not done with my life, then I can live without pressure, no matter what. At least, I'm refusing to put that kind of pressure on myself, because I had already done that to myself for 30 years leading up to the ctb attempt. So why would I put that pressure on myself again?

Part of the difficulty is the notion of getting "back on track" or having a specific narrative about life. I don't have much going on for me right now besides a new job that I'm pursuing. I'm getting along with my coworkers, I'm seeing a therapist, I'm attending a NAMI group once a month. I don't have great social skills, but I've been working on social exposure, maybe I'll make an irl friend one day. I can look people in the eye better, I can say "hi, how's it going" and can get out a smile. Then if they say "things are good" (even if they really aren't, but this is just a passing social interaction at a coffee shop lol) and smile back, I will have considered that a good social interaction between us, no matter how small it was. It was meaningful at least minimally, even if only for a brief moment.

My mind is starting to branch in multiple directions haha, so I guess I'll sum up. Ultimately, the "proof" that value can be found in being alive is something each individual person might be able to discover for themselves. It'll probably mean different things to each person. Meh, I don't even like wording it like "meaning, value, and purpose" are things people "find" in life external to them. I might not find objective value in the world. But I can value things, as an action that I am consciously committing. I might not find meaning "out there." But I can have experiences that I could interpret as meaningful, because I choose what is meaningful to me.

I don't find purpose, but I live on purpose.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. The "proof" that there are alternatives to ctb is ultimately going to be based on you, as unsatisfactory of an answer that may be. Best regards in your searching! :)

 

[James Sunderland]

I kind of gradually am making my mind up to CTB.
Some here are truly suffering whereas I am not. I would not even call myself depressed.
This life is just not working out. I might think of a nice future but chances of getting there are rather slim of where I stand now and who I am. At 51 I realize I have let myself stray too far from the norm (lack of social skills, anxiety, addiction, no kids, no partner … ), and I don't see myself getting back on track within a reasonable time frame.
So gradually ctb is becoming a logical conclusion.

But ... I might be wrong. That's why I am posting this in the recovery forum. I looked at the resources but could not find a resources that would help me challenge my 'logic'. I mean I feel a therapist will not engage in such a reasoning with ctb as conclusion. As they might not succeed, forcing them almost to acknowledge my conclusion (which I think they will want to avoid at all cost). Or the discussion might even help me to close holes in my argument.

It's like I still have some hope to be proven wrong. But how?

It takes a lot to share where you're at, and it sounds like you've really been thinking this through.
I can understand why it might feel like you're facing a dead end, especially after so many years of things not turning out the way you'd hoped.

But the fact that you're here, in the recovery forum, says a lot, it's like a small part of you is still open to the idea that there might be another path, even if it's hard to see right now.

Maybe it's not about proving you 'wrong' but exploring what might still be out there. Have you ever thought about what would need to change, even in a small way, for you to consider a different direction? No pressure, just curious where your mind is with all of this

 

[AmIForReal]

@chester
Thank you for your reply and story.

If you're truly open to changing your mind, then it's a good thing

Well that is what I am afraid of. I am a logical person and while I see others being influenced by emotions, authority etc, I am not. If you are not making a sound argument, I am not buying it. So I am asking a lot when asking to change my mind. I'm afraid people will give up or even avoid getting dragged into this kind of discussion by saying I don't really want to change my mind. If they start using this, there is no way forward in the discussion for me. It would feel as a false accusation that would make me feel powerless and sad.

because it takes much more than logic to do it.

But the logic seems to me the starting point. Only if I am getting convinced (or start to doubt) there is the (reasonable) possibility of a nice future, I am willing to take further steps.

The best advice I can think of is give yourself time. Not a few weeks, six months at least, preferably more.

That I did. When to stop giving it another six months?

I also take into account there might be a reason for me to live, I just don't know it yet.

I had a good reason. I had an idea, a software project that might be commercially viable. After two years of burning my savings I feel lost, am lost because of who I am: perfectionist, addiction etc. What was I thinking of pulling this of. I also went out looking for someone to love that loves me. But people my age are not naive. They are having a hard think before they step into a relationship. I cannot blame them, I have red flags all over the place. So first I should change myself, learn to love myself etc. But then time comes in. If I was 10 years younger I would not CTB knowing what I know now. But I didn't then and nobody told me things like: you seem to have social anxiety, get treatment. You might have ASD: get that checked etc. I didn't know, lived my life using the wrong coping strategies. I feel like a tree, where an obstruction made it grow in the wrong direction. And now it is so crooked that it might take another 50 years to rectify.

 

[AmIForReal]

@BoulderSoWhat
Thanks for your reply and story.

my life would have been set in stone at the time of death

This kept my going for a very long time. I was a loser with failure after failure but I had potential. Things will be better in the future. But at 51, I realized: wait a minute, that future is now. And I am still a loser. I can no longer cope with it by projecting into the future.

find goals that are meaningful

See the last paragraph of my reply to chester.

I don't find purpose, but I live on purpose.

I feel like you are saying, you are living more in the moment. I admire people who can, but never have been able to do that. But I feel it expresses also a feeling of being ok with where you are now. But where I am now is (objectively I feel) not ok.

The "proof" that there are alternatives to ctb is ultimately going to be based on you

I don't know if that is what you mean but I read this that it is up to me to find holes in my reasoning. I hope I do (it's not watertight yet), but my question is who will help me with this? It also comes close to the argument that if I don't find holes, it must be I don't really want to (see the first paragraph of my reply to chester).
I know I am reading more into your statement than you intended to put in there, so please read this as just a way of expressing my thoughts and fears triggered by what you wrote.

 

[AmIForReal]

@James Sunderland
Thanks!

But the fact that you're here, in the recovery forum, says a lot, it's like a small part of you is still open to the idea that there might be another path, even if it's hard to see right now.

Yes but it also I feels more like hoping I will win the lottery. Not really realistic.

Have you ever thought about what would need to change, even in a small way, for you to consider a different direction?

As I see it more as a cluster of problems, I don't see how a small change would have any impact on my conclusion.

 

[Hvergelmir]

I looked at the resources but could not find a resources that would help me challenge my 'logic'.

Finding life or death preferable is not in the realm of logic. There's nothing wrong with your reasoning.
Giving up is a logically sound solution to just about any ongoing condition. I wouldn't try to disprove that thesis.

To me it's only marginally better than idly waiting for a natural death, though. Let's do a serious attempt at finding better solutions.
With complete surrender and death as an acceptable alternative, you have little reason to be discouraged by fear or poor odds.

Feel free to share whatever alternatives you might have. I'm sure people are happy to lend some inspiration and creativity to nudge those odds in the right direction.
With near infinite possibilities, the likelihood of there being something worthwhile to do, seem rather good.

 

[babouflo201223]

Je me décide petit à petit à adopter le CTB.
Certains ici souffrent vraiment, alors que moi, je ne souffre pas. Je ne me qualifierais même pas de déprimée.
Cette vie ne me convient pas. J'ai beau penser à un bel avenir, mes chances d'y parvenir sont plutôt minces, compte tenu de ma situation actuelle et de la personne que je suis. À 51 ans, je me rends compte que je me suis trop éloignée de la norme (manque de compétences sociales, anxiété, addiction, pas d'enfants, pas de partenaire…) et je ne me vois pas revenir sur la bonne voie dans un délai raisonnable.
Ainsi, petit à petit, le CTB devient une conclusion logique.

Mais… je peux me tromper. C'est pourquoi je poste ceci sur le forum de rétablissement. J'ai regardé les ressources mais je n'ai pas trouvé de ressources qui m'aideraient à remettre en question ma « logique ». Je veux dire que je pense qu'un thérapeute ne s'engagera pas dans un tel raisonnement avec le ctb comme conclusion. Car il pourrait ne pas y parvenir, le forçant presque à reconnaître ma conclusion (ce qu'il voudra éviter à tout prix, je pense). Ou la discussion pourrait même m'aider à combler les lacunes de mon argument.

C'est comme si j'avais encore un peu d'espoir d'avoir tort. Mais comment ?

I think I'm a little bit in the same situation. I lost my wife from a cancer in 2006. My girlfriend left me alone to start a new life in last december, we lived together since 2007. No kids. No real friends. Etc. CTB appears more and more to me just as a logical issue because I don't feel suitable (I'm not sure it's the right word, my english is rather bad, sorry) for this society now, and meeting someone on the same "wavelenght" to share a future seems too complicated. I'm maybe wrong. But CTB is very present in my mind, what was not the case before.

 

[dune_dweller]

I'm in the exact situation as you, except I'm 37.

I've held out hope that things will get better for so long... and yet I just got stuck, due to my own lack of action.

I'm not sure if anyone can prove you wrong... it's ultimately up to you to determine whether the rest of your life is worth living or not.

 

[-nobodyknows-]

I really hope someone can prove me wrong.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I don't know if that is what you mean but I read this that it is up to me to find holes in my reasoning. I hope I do (it's not watertight yet), but my question is who will help me with this? It also comes close to the argument that if I don't find holes, it must be I don't really want to (see the first paragraph of my reply to chester).
I know I am reading more into your statement than you

Ah, yes I apologize, I see how my wording can be taken in that way. I definitely don't mean it like that.

I can relate where your coming from that ctb is more logic and reasoning based, that was the same for me. Actually I would say it's still that way for me, but in a more nuanced sense that the reasoning and logic I used to get myself into the ctb attempt is incidentally driving my "new" approach to be alive.

So having ideation since I was little, and year by year life just staying shit to varying degrees, I was always delaying when I would say I was done. I'll wait to see if anything comes of college. Oops, I dropped out and still felt meaningless, purposeless, without direction, and I hate my home but can't get out of home and life is shit. Okay I'll try pursuing a different path. Led nowhere, still didn't know what I wanted to do, still needed to get out of home because I hated it, but had no means to get myself out. Okay depression symptoms getting worse, suicidal ideation kicking into high gear. Ooops, family got the hint and I got put into inpatient. Rinse repeat over the years, throw in a bout of homelessness, I'll commit at 23, okay 24, maybe 25? etc. etc. At some point, when was I going to realize "just do it, why keep waiting, isn't 3 decades of evidence that life is perpetually shit enough? Is there really anything I want to see going into my 30s,40s,50s,60s, or however long I keep this body alive?"

And so I reasoned, life is shit, there is no guarantee that efforts to improve pay off, and anything achieved can be swept away. Hell, give the universe enough time and if it goes the way of heat death...well bye bye to literally everything, what was even the point if we can't get away from the death of our own universe?

So I definitely agree, there is logic that can be reasoned to the point of ctb. I am an antinatalist also. If I know that bringing a life into this world risks the non-zero probability (can we just call it a certainty?) that the life will either experience suffering and/or cause suffering to others, then I'm not creating life. If I wouldn't choose to bring life here, then wouldn't that be a further point to, "okay, recognizing that I myself wouldn't bring life here, can I just go now, please? I would like to leave planet." In fact, if I want to discard all risk of experiencing any further suffering at all in my life, well ctb kind of seals that permanently lol. Suicide can be reasoned to the point of acting on it. Not to make a dumb analogy, but if someone is at a party and they're not having a good time at all and want to leave, that should be respected, right? Yes they've tried to mingle with people, yes tasted the cake, yes they've tried to relax, or whatever else. If they still think to themselves "I want to go now," there is really no way to counter argue that. Why would they keep trying different things to have a good time at the party, if they've already done that. Same with life, why keep trying for things, if I've already tried for things, and am still not feeling it?

Sorry I'm kind of stream of consciousness writing haha. So, when the ctb logic is at it's strongest, I don't really think there are going to be holes. But I don't think the ctb reasoning has to be falsified in order for a person to say "yeah, I see you death, but until you actually take me down for good, I'm going to do this instead, get fucked universe, stop playing peek-a-boo and fight me already Cthulhu. In the meantime.....coffee and socializing if I can do anything about it lol." Ctb logic doesn't have to be proven wrong, in order for a person to decide for themselves "yeah, but I'm going to do this instead." In a sense, then nothing really has any power over me (full disclaimer, I realize I am saying this as someone who doesn't experience chronic pain or any debilitating ailments. And of course I'm not immune to this stuff, being alive can throw another wrench to the face and suddenly my health fails horribly). I can acknowledge the logic of both living and dying I guess. If I like coffee, and I want to drink coffee, and I need to be alive to do that, then that's what I'll do. If I feel good doing something that is good for me, even if only because I like it, then that also is a logic that cannot be refuted. The universe will have to kill me if it doesn't want me to drink coffee.

This is a great conversation and I'm starting to unpack some of my thinking that I realize I haven't quite thought through yet :)

Ah, so how does my ctb thinking still apply post-attempt? Being non-complacent I think. This can be elaborated definitely, but I must sleep for now.

 

[AmIForReal]

@dune_dweller

I'm in the exact situation as you, except I'm 37.

I've held out hope that things will get better for so long... and yet I just got stuck, due to my own lack of action.

I know it is not my place to tell you anything. But... I envy you (knowing your exact situation I might not, but let's say you are where I was at 37). Me, at 37, for the most part, I didn't realize something was wrong. I see this knowing as a huge advantage in your favor.

I'm not sure if anyone can prove you wrong... it's ultimately up to you to determine whether the rest of your life is worth living or not.

True, it's just not how I work. I generally don't know what I want. Even for simple things. The only way I am able to make choice is through an objective argument that leaves 'me' out of the equation. I think about what is morally right or what is best for the other, the team, the world. Only recently I found out that this is not how people generally work, they know instinctively what they like and don't like.
So I have this strong urge the make an argument for which I feel almost anybody would agree with.