How and why does propaganda work?

[sserafim]

.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Everything you don't agree with is propaganda. Everything you do agree with is objective facts.

 

[sserafim]

Everything you don't agree with is propaganda. Everything you do agree with is objective facts.

People can be manipulated by propaganda though. I heard that it manipulates the collective unconscious. I'm curious how exactly it pushes peoples' buttons

 

[SexyIncél]

Ed Bernays explained how to "regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments their bodies"

He was nephew of Freud & "the father of modern public relations" (along with Walter Lippman). So here's his 1928 book, Propaganda:

THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.

Some like the documentary "The Century of the Self"

 

[LittleCupcake]

Usually with lies, misinformation and fear mongering. just look at how transphobia works its a great example/case study. So they start by saying kids are under attack and that causes people to make impulse decisions before they realise it wasnt true. then another lie is made to keep people in fear. Its just a system of control that people get sucked into and they believe it so blindly they will try to justify it to themselves by calling others deluded or misinformed

Its an interesting system and it shows how easy people are to manipulate

 

[dragonofenvy]

Play on emotions, scare people, call the people that you don't like names and paint them as threats to the country and democracy or what have you to scare them and rile up anger. Basically, watch a political rally, then watch their opponent's rally. You'll begin to see it. You don't need to be logical, in fact being logical is bad because people can see through it. Once you make people angry, then their judgment fails them.

@Dr Iron Arc has the best definition. Some people's propaganda is another one's fact. People are more than willing to point out how foolish the people they don't like are and will look away once a mirror is put in front of them. There isn't any point in trying to debate it unless you're doing it for fun. Since everybody has an emotional stake in it they're more than willing to die on the hill for their beliefs.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

People can be manipulated by propaganda though. It manipulates the collective unconscious. I'm curious how exactly it pushes peoples' buttons

The simple answer is that propaganda creators play on any source of fear and insecurity that they assume is common. Everybody has something they're afraid of even if they don't realize it. Sometimes anger and sadness are included as well but ultimately it's fear of any potential source of other negative emotions that motivates people into blindly accepting information especially if they already agree with it.

 

[greebo6]

Its mostly based on understanding and using human psychology with a sprinkling of manipulation, opportunism and cynicism to the mix.
Those who use it the most successfully are usually very intelligent people.

 

[sserafim]

Its mostly based on understanding and using human psychology with a sprinkling of manipulation, opportunism and cynicism to the mix.
Those who use it the most successfully are usually very intelligent people.

How do you understand and use human psychology?

 

[SexyIncél]

How do you understand and use human psychology?

People note how they influence people irl, then maybe get PR/marketing/advertising/executive/etc jobs or read books like Cialdini's "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion"

 

[Meteora]

How do you understand and use human psychology?

Through years of studies f. ex.

Take the second world war. Even people who were not against Jews became Nazis. It was not possible to openly say, what Hitler claims is not good. They would ve been in danger themselves. So they chose to badger the Jews.

 

[DarkRange55]

Everything you don't agree with is propaganda. Everything you do agree with is objective facts.

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't phrase it like that…

 

[greebo6]

How do you understand and use human psychology?

Well, for one thing you tell them what you want them to hear. Then you tell them again and again till they start to question things they didn't before and again and again till they start to believe the things you tell them .It can be done in all kinds of ways.
You play on their fears and their weaknesses. Manipulate those uncertainties. Put a certain spin on things happening in their world or in the world in general.
I suppose all this and more is possible because the human mind and human nature is so complicated.
Governments have always used propaganda (think of times of war for instance) .
Unfortunately brutal regimes and dictators have also always used propaganda because it is a powerful weapon.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Ask the Zionists. America gives Israel billions of taxpayer dollars each year for nothing. Christians in power and their supporters have bought the propaganda found in Genesis where God says to Abraham, " i will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you."

 

[DarkRange55]

Its mostly based on understanding and using human psychology with a sprinkling of manipulation, opportunism and cynicism to the mix.
Those who use it the most successfully are usually very intelligent people.

Definitely, plus fear & hatred

How do you understand and use human psychology?

Just study psychology then apply it and read people.
We are all programmable.

The 48 Laws of Power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the United States government had a propaganda machine as well oiled as the one Goebbels's had, we would all either agree, or be so scared of disagreeing with whatever they were saying that we wouldn't say anything in public. Thats how a good propaganda machine works. Propaganda has to be backed up with fear and thankfully we haven't seen that here. Hitler had the brown shirts, the storm troopers.

 

[sserafim]

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't phrase it like that…

Wdym. Why not?

 

[untothedepths]

I'll never trust election ads and instead will read what is written on their websites and cross reference their track record. If we are talking about what the government says, then I'll believe very little of it. My govt. is both okayish and pretty damn corrupt in other ways. They don't like other countries "spying on their citizens" but turn around and just do it to their own populace. Just an example.

 

[DarkRange55]

Wdym. Why not?

Facts are generally considered to be objective because they are based on observable and verifiable evidence that can be independently verified. In other words, facts are statements that are true regardless of personal opinions or beliefs. For example, it is a fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.

In certain contexts, such as subjective experiences or personal beliefs, truth can be seen as subjective, varying from person to person based on their perceptions, interpretations, and experiences. For example, one person's truth about the taste of a particular food or the emotional impact of a piece of music may differ from another person's truth.

So, while truth can be objective in some contexts, it can also be subjective in others, depending on the framework or perspective being used to define it.

"It's your heart that perceives reality as being harsh and full of suffering. Your heart interprets reality as being the only truth. How you see reality, how you interpret it, with those things changing slightly, whats inside your heart will change greatly. There are as many truths as there are people. But there's only one truth for you. Focused through a narrow worldview built using information that's been altered for your protection. It's an artificial truth. In the end people can only gauge things around them with their own yard stick. People tend to see the world using the truth that others have given them. Be happy on a sunny day. Rainy days make you feel gloomy. If you become stuck feeling that way it's because of what others told you to feel. The truth and body was in a persons delicate and malleable. The truth can be changed, depending on how you interpret the events."

- Neo Genesis Evangelion

Facts are "objective" until proven otherwise. Given the topic of propaganda on this post "objectivity" and "facts" are a tool for it now. You see things like fact checkers or experts can be provably incorrect, but when everyone agrees that they're right it's a bit hard to be confident in yourself. Most people don't bother to do their own research which I sometimes find surprising since you can prove someone right or wrong, or sometimes BOTH within a few minutes. If it takes longer than that then it probably ain't worth your time unless you find it fun.

Idk. A long time ago the sun revolved around the earth and that's the way it was and many believed it until it was proven wrong, and even when it was proven wrong those with that opinion were often quiet voices or silenced entirely. View objectivity with skepticism because it's become very difficult to figure out what is a true fact in regards to political;/propaganda stuff.

I know you were talking about the difference between truth and fact in your second sentence, but it's become very difficult to discern the difference now in political contexts especially since it's hard to put aside biases. Lots of people including me say "well objectively speaking this is true" when it isn't.

I think the use of these words in common parlance has taken on a different meaning. A scientific fact would be something like a mathematical proof (axiom) or a law (gravity) or something with significant empirical evidence behind it like germ theory.

Facts are generally considered to be objective because they are based on observable and verifiable evidence that can be independently verified. In other words, facts are statements that are true regardless of personal opinions or beliefs. For example, it is a fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.

In certain contexts, such as subjective experiences or personal beliefs, truth can be seen as subjective, varying from person to person based on their perceptions, interpretations, and experiences. For example, one person's truth about the taste of a particular food or the emotional impact of a piece of music may differ from another person's truth.

So, while truth can be objective in some contexts, it can also be subjective in others, depending on the framework or perspective being used to define it.

"It's your heart that perceives reality as being harsh and full of suffering. Your heart interprets reality as being the only truth. How you see reality, how you interpret it, with those things changing slightly, whats inside your heart will change greatly. There are as many truths as there are people. But there's only one truth for you. Focused through a narrow worldview built using information that's been altered for your protection. It's an artificial truth. In the end people can only gauge things around them with their own yard stick. People tend to see the world using the truth that others have given them. Be happy on a sunny day. Rainy days make you feel gloomy. If you become stuck feeling that way it's because of what others told you to feel. The truth and body was in a persons delicate and malleable. The truth can be changed, depending on how you interpret the events."

- Neo Genesis Evangelion

I think the use of these words in common parlance has taken on a different meaning. A scientific fact would be something like a mathematical proof (axiom) or a law (gravity) or something with significant empirical evidence behind it like germ theory.

For example, if any one of the four unifying theories of biology were wrong, then all the scientific breakthrough discoveries and technologies today would not have been possible: gene theory, theory of hereditary, theory of evolution and cell theory.
And again, "theory" means something different in colloquial usage than it does in a strict scientific sense.

Journalism is a product of the human mind like most things. True objectivity is not entirely realistic. AGI may get closer to achieving that.

I think it depends on the context and how you use these words - the fickle nature of language which is also a propaganda tool. See: Newspeak (1984)

Newspeak - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pessimist]

It helps if you rebrand your fanaticism as "cool" and adopt a thuggish style. Convince young people that the Western democracies they live in are somehow inferior, undesirable and evil.

'Jihad Cool': Rap videos, adventure and 'fun' of war luring Americans

Minneapolis man Abdirahmaan Muhumed, 29, is one of 15 Minnesota Somali-Americans jihadists now waging jihad for ISIS in Syria as militants exploit the chilling trend of 'Jihad Cool'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SexyIncél]

We should recall that propaganda includes the advertising industry, which is maybe around 20% of US GDP. So one of Ed Bernays's best-known campaigns was to promote smoking among women — feminist "Torches of Freedom". Not just helping the CIA overthrow Guatemala's democracy for Chiquita banana

I'd guess "government propaganda" is probably far smaller than corporate propaganda. (Though you could say corporate & state interests are the same, to a first approximation)

Still, as Chomsky mentions, "propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state". Bernays agrees, writing essays like "The Engineering of Consent", and saying things like: "Ours must be a leadership democracy administered by the intelligent minority who know how to regiment and guide the masses."

Propaganda's far more sophisticated in freer countries, because elites rely more on this method of control. It's a weaker method of control than straight-up violence. But of course, the US has some of that too; it usually has the largest known prison population in the world. (China probably has more, as you have to double its official numbers. But the US still beats China by rate, because China has 4X its population)

 

[Pluto]

 

[DarkRange55]

We should recall that propaganda includes the advertising industry, which is maybe around 20% of US GDP. So one of Ed Bernays's best-known campaigns was to promote smoking among women — feminist "Torches of Freedom". Not just helping the CIA overthrow Guatemala's democracy for Chiquita banana

I'd guess "government propaganda" is probably far smaller than corporate propaganda. (Though you could say corporate & state interests are the same, to a first approximation)

Still, as Chomsky mentions, "propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state". Bernays agrees, writing essays like "The Engineering of Consent", and saying things like: "Ours must be a leadership democracy administered by the intelligent minority who know how to regiment and guide the masses."

Propaganda's far more sophisticated in freer countries, because elites rely more on this method of control. It's a weaker method of control than straight-up violence. But of course, the US has some of that too; it usually has the largest known prison population in the world. (China probably has more, as you have to double its official numbers. But the US still beats China by rate, because China has 4X its population)

Prison population - per Wiki

According to the World Prison Brief the United States in 2021 had the sixth highest incarceration rate in the world, at 531 people per 100,000.[1][2]Between 2019 and 2020, the United States saw a significant drop in the total number of incarcerations. State and federal prison and local jail incarcerations dropped by 14% from 2.1 million in 2019 to 1.8 million in mid-2020.[3] In 2018, the United States had the highest incarceration rate in the world.[4]

United States incarceration rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most prisoners per capita by country 2024 | Statista

El Salvador struggles with high levels of violent crime, reflected in the fact that it has the largest prison population per capita worldwide.

www.statista.com

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't phrase it like that…

I went for saying facts instead of truth cause I know that's how some people view the things they agree with though I guess you knew that too.

 

[DarkRange55]

I went for saying facts instead of truth cause I know that's how some people view the things they agree with though I guess you knew that too.

I guess facts might be a more apt word these days because of the aforementioned "fact checkers"

 

[sserafim]

Prison population - per Wiki

According to the World Prison Brief the United States in 2021 had the sixth highest incarceration rate in the world, at 531 people per 100,000.[1][2]Between 2019 and 2020, the United States saw a significant drop in the total number of incarcerations. State and federal prison and local jail incarcerations dropped by 14% from 2.1 million in 2019 to 1.8 million in mid-2020.[3] In 2018, the United States had the highest incarceration rate in the world.[4]

United States incarceration rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most prisoners per capita by country 2024 | Statista

El Salvador struggles with high levels of violent crime, reflected in the fact that it has the largest prison population per capita worldwide.

www.statista.com

Did you see my DM?

 

[Untimely]

There's actually quite a few books written on the topic that would go into depth way better compared to the explanations on this site. I'd recommend to just read some books if you're curious

We should recall that propaganda includes the advertising industry, which is maybe around 20% of US GDP. So one of Ed Bernays's best-known campaigns was to promote smoking among women — feminist "Torches of Freedom". Not just helping the CIA overthrow Guatemala's democracy for Chiquita banana

I'd guess "government propaganda" is probably far smaller than corporate propaganda. (Though you could say corporate & state interests are the same, to a first approximation)

Still, as Chomsky mentions, "propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state". Bernays agrees, writing essays like "The Engineering of Consent", and saying things like: "Ours must be a leadership democracy administered by the intelligent minority who know how to regiment and guide the masses."

Propaganda's far more sophisticated in freer countries, because elites rely more on this method of control. It's a weaker method of control than straight-up violence. But of course, the US has some of that too; it usually has the largest known prison population in the world. (China probably has more, as you have to double its official numbers. But the US still beats China by rate, because China has 4X its population)

Why would we have to double their official numbers?

 

[SexyIncél]

Why would we have to double their official numbers?

Because there's compelling evidence that China underreports prisoners. Rule of thumb is to double them, just to be on the safe side. I don't recall the main work on it; Chomsky cited it. For more recent analysis, maybe reputable human rights orgs would have them

(fwiw I'll be very busy tomorrow, so can't hunt the cite now)

 

[sserafim]

People note how they influence people irl, then maybe get PR/marketing/advertising/executive/etc jobs or read books like Cialdini's "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion"

View attachment 133207

How do you influence people irl or note how you do?

 

[Untimely]

Because there's compelling evidence that China underreports prisoners. Rule of thumb is to double them, just to be on the safe side. I don't recall the main work on it; Chomsky cited it. For more recent analysis, maybe reputable human rights orgs would have them

(fwiw I'll be very busy tomorrow, so can't hunt the cite now)

I don't think I've ever heard of that rule of thumb. When they report statistics, you can read all their reports. They are just as thorough as the US or other western country

How do you influence people irl or note how you do?

I think most people who try to influence in day to day life just use regular coercive and antisocial behaviors to manipulate people, I'm not sure if they do anything special

 

[MyChoiceAlone]

just take a smidgen of what you think may be acceptable to the general public and blow that way out of proportion