Help Help with plan pls!!

[bloos]

I'm considering perhaps taking 10,000mg crushed panadol through my stomach tube (which I have due to health issues from a previous attempt). It wont be possible for me to throw up the pills, due to my medical issues nothing can come back up or out. However, I will most likely be taken to hospital a few hours after by family members after displaying symptoms. I would prefer this method instead of partial hanging so I have time to say goodbye too the people that I love, and because its easier for me to overcome SI oding instead of hanging. However, my concern is that they may do a liver transplant and I will survive. Would they do a liver transplant on a suicidal patient if I write in a letter that I will attempt to kill myself again if I survive and that I do not want to live or get a liver transplant but my family want me too?

I really need to leave. Please help me.

 

[Mr_House]

I don't know the specifics on this but, I guess Livers are pretty hard to get in a limited time span, I also heard livers and the like get to children or other valued people first, your more or less going to be on a waiting list for one, But if all the patients are topped up on kidneys and they don't have a scarcity, You may get a transplant

Again, I'm no medical expert whatsoever - this is just pure speculation, So take it with a lot of grains of salt

I hope this information dissolves your anxiety, cheers

-Mr_House

 

[theboy]

The family, in this case, has the last word to decide on your transplant.

 

[Jrmull1993]

I'm considering perhaps taking 10,000mg crushed panadol through my stomach tube (which I have due to health issues from a previous attempt).

The LD50 for acetaminophen is 2,000mg/kg. It's highly unlikely this dose will be lethal. There is obviously a high chance of liver damage, but liver failure is far from guaranteed.

However, my concern is that they may do a liver transplant and I will survive.

Being that you would have a history for reoccurrent suicidal attempts, I highly doubt you would be a candidate for a liver transplant, Much less so that you would qualify under emergent conditions.

Im not sure where you are from, but in New York, hospital transplant teams are allowed to consider a patient's "concurrent psychiatric history" when determining if they are an appropriate candidate.

Would they do a liver transplant on a suicidal patient if I write in a letter that I will attempt to kill myself again if I survive and that I do not want to live or get a liver transplant but my family want me too?

Anything you write will be null and void in the eyes of the law as you'd be considered mentally unfit to make your own medical decisions.

 

[eve2004]

If it is written in your will, then they cannot do the transplant. A will is legally binding, and you can opt out of extreme measures to save your life, and a transplant is definitely extreme. It's purpose is so that if and when they decide that you are mentally unfit to make your own medical decisions, they still have to respect the one you made while you were (considered mentally "fit").

As for the 10g, I once took 7g and was nauseous AF for a day or so (good time to test the meto, but bad/risky strategy), that's it. However, ingesting an oral dose as I did may not have the same absorption rate as through the stomach tube... I'm not sure what the mechanism for nausea is, but it's unlikely caused by stomach irritation. I would guess it is related to overwhelming the liver. I do know that this is a fairly painful and long process before death (I've read that it could take weeks)...

 

[bloos]

The LD50 for acetaminophen is 2,000mg/kg. It's highly unlikely this dose will be lethal. There is obviously a high chance of liver damage, but liver failure is far from guaranteed.

Being that you would have a history for reoccurrent suicidal attempts, I highly doubt you would be a candidate for a liver transplant, Much less so that you would qualify under emergent conditions.

Im not sure where you are from, but in New York, hospital transplant teams are allowed to consider a patient's "concurrent psychiatric history" when determining if they are an appropriate candidate.

Anything you write will be null and void in the eyes of the law as you'd be considered mentally unfit to make your own medical decisions.

Are you sure it wouldn't be lethal? Keep in mind this is 200 panadol pills. Good to hear I wouldn't be the best candidate though, even if I'm considered mentally unfit to decide whether I should get a liver transplant or not (stupid since its a huge operation and my body)

If it is written in your will, then they cannot do the transplant. A will is legally binding, and you can opt out of extreme measures to save your life, and a transplant is definitely extreme. It's purpose is so that if and when they decide that you are mentally unfit to make your own medical decisions, they still have to respect the one you made while you were (considered mentally "fit").

As for the 10g, I once took 7g and was nauseous AF for a day or so (good time to test the meto, but bad/risky strategy), that's it. However, ingesting an oral dose as I did may not have the same absorption rate as through the stomach tube... I'm not sure what the mechanism for nausea is, but it's unlikely caused by stomach irritation. I would guess it is related to overwhelming the liver. I do know that this is a fairly painful and long process before death (I've read that it could take weeks)...

really? Ive taken 40 pills (50mg panadol each) before I had the stomach tube and was throwing up like hell and had to get the iv remedy for 2 nights, I can't believe you handled that much without long term consequences. im glad your liver is okay, maybe itd be a good idea to get a routine blood test to double check. sadly I can't make changes to my will without my mental health services finding out.

I don't know the specifics on this but, I guess Livers are pretty hard to get in a limited time span, I also heard livers and the like get to children or other valued people first, your more or less going to be on a waiting list for one, But if all the patients are topped up on kidneys and they don't have a scarcity, You may get a transplant

Again, I'm no medical expert whatsoever - this is just pure speculation, So take it with a lot of grains of salt

I hope this information dissolves your anxiety, cheers

-Mr_House

Thank you for your input, Mr House :)

 

[Jrmull1993]

Are you sure it wouldn't be lethal? Keep in mind this is 200 panadol pills. Good to hear I wouldn't be the best candidate though, even if I'm considered mentally unfit to decide whether I should get a liver transplant or not (stupid since its a huge operation and my body)

200 pills is meaningless. The LD50 (the median dose required to inflected death) is 2,000mg per kilogram of bodyweight, and the TDLO (lowest published toxic dose) is 143 to 325 MG per kg. Note that the TDLO is not onset of death, but onset of physical signs of toxicity.

Your dose might cause death in the future from other complications, but it is far from being guaranteed.

Source is attached, note that it is the SDS for 100% acetaminophen. The pill form is only about 35% acetaminophen

If it is written in your will, then they cannot do the transplant. A will is legally binding, and you can opt out of extreme measures to save your life, and a transplant is definitely extreme. It's purpose is so that if and when they decide that you are mentally unfit to make your own medical decisions, they still have to respect the one you made while you were (considered mentally "fit").

In the United States and Canada, A Will / Last Testament has no legal substance when it comes to health care. Only a Healthcare Proxy, Advanced Directive and /or Physician's Order can determine what is done to you if you are unable to make the decisions yourself.

Your documents will have no standing if completed in a close time frame to your suicide attempt.

 

[bloos]

200 pills is meaningless. The LD50 (the median dose required to inflected death) is 2,000mg per kilogram of bodyweight, and the TDLO (lowest published toxic dose) is 143 to 325 MG per kg. Note that the TDLO is not onset of death, but onset of physical signs of toxicity.

Your dose might cause death in the future from other complications, but it is far from being guaranteed.

Source is attached, note that it is the SDS for 100% acetaminophen. The pill form is only about 35% acetaminophen

In the United States and Canada, A Will / Last Testament has no legal substance when it comes to health care. Only a Healthcare Proxy, Advanced Directive and /or Physician's Order can determine what is done to you if you are unable to make the decisions yourself.

Your documents will have no standing if completed in a close time frame to your suicide attempt.

Im underweight, 48kg. I did the calculations, 200 pills of 50mg each, is 4800mg/kg. A lot higher then the LD50 mentioned. Thank you for the source. Does this change your opinion on how likely it is to work?

 

[Jrmull1993]

Im underweight, 48kg. I did the calculations, 200 pills of 50mg each, is 4800mg/kg. A lot higher then the LD50 mentioned. Thank you for the source. Does this change your opinion on how likely it is to work?

It definitely changes my opinion. While nothing is guaranteed, I'd say the odds are in your favor.

 

[bloos]

It definitely changes my opinion. While nothing is guaranteed, I'd say the odds are in your favor.

Okay. Good to know, really appreciate your input :) Another question, I'm not sure if you would have any knowledge around this... due to my last attempt, nothing can go out or in my stomach (the stomach tube is to drain my stomach acid so my stomach doesnt explode, lol, but I can put something in through if I wanted to and then just not drain, but I read that the panadol toxicness gets absorbed in the liver, and if the panadol stays in my stomach it doesn't get to my liver apart from being absorbed in the blood? I'm not sure if this impacts anything, what do you think?

Thank you :)

 

[Jrmull1993]

Your condition should have no effect on the metabolism of acetaminophen (Panadol), as the liver filters blood from the stomach and intestinal muscles, it does not filter gastrointestinal fluids.

A peritoneal port allows access to the stomach, but does not effect the bloodflow through the stomach lining, nor does it impact gastrointestinal blood circulation.

 

[bloos]

Your condition should have no effect on the metabolism of acetaminophen (Panadol), as the liver filters blood from the stomach and intestinal muscles, it does not filter gastrointestinal fluids.

A peritoneal port allows access to the stomach, but does not effect the bloodflow through the stomach lining, nor does it impact gastrointestinal blood circulation.

Thats so so good to know. Brings me much relief. I can't thank you enough.

 

[Jrmull1993]

Best of luck on your search for eternal peace.

 

[bloos]

Best of luck on your search for eternal peace.

Oh wow. I realised its 500mg per pill, not 50mg, I read it wrong . Even better. Thank you.

 

[eve2004]

I apologize in advance for citing so many references but I feel it's necessary.

The LD50 for paracetamon is NOT 2000mg/KG bodyweight in HUMANS. That is for MICE.

A toxic dose causing liver damage is closer to 200mg/KG bodyweight in HUMANS.

A lot of scientific articles discuss liver damage and in the course of the study, talk about LD50 but most of the time they are referring to it in mice because of course, this isn't tested in humans.

Wikipedia:

Paracetamol replacements[edit]

Paracetamol ester prodrug with L-pyroglutamic acid (PCA), a biosynthetic precursor of glutathione, has been synthesized to reduce paracetamol hepatotoxicity and improve bioavailability. The toxicological studies of different paracetamol esters show that L-5-oxo-pyrrolidine-2-paracetamol carboxylate reduces toxicity after administration of an overdose of paracetamol to mice. The liver glutathione values in mice induced by intraperitoneal injection of the ester are superimposable with the GSH levels recorded in untreated mice control group. The mice group treated with an equivalent dose of paracetamol showed a significative decrease of glutathione of 35% (p<0.01 vs untreated control group). The oral LD50 was found to be greater than 2000 mg kg-1, whereas the intraperitoneal LD50 was 1900 mg kg-1. These results taken together with the good hydrolysis and bioavailability data show that this ester is a potential candidate as a prodrug of paracetamol.[57]​

Note that this paragraph is talking about MICE.

Also wikipedia:

The toxic dose of paracetamol is highly variable. In general the recommended maximum daily dose for healthy adults is 4 grams.[16]​[17]​ Higher doses lead to increasing risk of toxicity. In adults, single doses above 10 grams or 200 mg/kg of bodyweight, whichever is lower, have a reasonable likelihood of causing toxicity.[18]​[19]​ Toxicity can also occur when multiple smaller doses within 24 hours exceed these levels.[19]​ Following a dose of 1 gram of paracetamol four times a day for two weeks, patients can expect an increase in alanine transaminase in their liver to typically about three times the normal value.[20]​ It is unlikely that this dose would lead to liver failure.[21]​ Studies have shown significant hepatotoxicity is uncommon in patients who have taken greater than normal doses over 3 to 4 days.[22]​ In adults, a dose of 6 grams a day over the preceding 48 hours could potentially lead to toxicity,[19]​while in children acute doses above 200 mg/kg could potentially cause toxicity.[23]​ Acute paracetamol overdose in children rarely causes illness or death, and it is very uncommon for children to have levels that require treatment, with chronic larger-than-normal doses being the major cause of toxicity in children.[19]​

Intentional overdosing (self-poisoning, with suicidal intent) is frequently implicated in paracetamol toxicity.[24]​ In a 2006 review, paracetamol was the most frequently ingested compound in intentional overdosing.[25]​

or AAT Bioquest LD50 on RATS:

Paracetamol Toxicity (LD50)

The median lethal dose (LD50) for Paracetamol is 1944 mg per kg *
*Input desired mass in the textbox above to scale the results. Value is measured via oral route in rat(s)

US Pharmacist:

In adults, the minimum toxic dose of acetaminophen as a single ingestion is 7.5 to 10 g; acute ingestion of >150 mg/kg or 12 g of acetaminophen in adults is considered a toxic dose and carries a high risk of liver damage. In healthy children aged 1 to 6 years, the minimum toxic dose of acetaminophen as a single ingestion is 150 mg/kg, and acute ingestion of ≥250 mg/kg poses a significant risk for acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity.5 Children who ingest >350 mg/kg and are not appropriately treated are at high risk for severe hepatotoxicity.5

Life in the fast lane (humans):

CLINICAL FEATURES

• overdose of > 10g or > 200mg/kg
• doses of > 250mg/kg associated with massive hepatic necrosis and liver faillure
• be aware of the late presenters (> 8 hours since OD and start NAC empirically)

ANTIDOTE : (go to ER preferably)

I haven't cited them here but according to what I've read and if you want I can cite them, the antidote (clinical not scientifically proven) that is sometimes used is Vitamin C, I've already read about Vitamin D being used (calciferol specifically).

 

[Jrmull1993]

I apologize in advance for citing so many references but I feel it's necessary.

The LD50 for paracetamon is NOT 2000mg/KG bodyweight in HUMANS. That is for MICE.

A toxic dose causing liver damage is closer to 200mg/KG bodyweight in HUMANS.

A lot of scientific articles discuss liver damage and in the course of the study, talk about LD50 but most of the time they are referring to it in mice because of course, this isn't tested in humans.

Wikipedia:



Note that this paragraph is talking about MICE.

Also wikipedia:



or AAT Bioquest LD50 on RATS:



US Pharmacist:



Life in the fast lane (humans):



ANTIDOTE : (go to ER preferably)

I haven't cited them here but according to what I've read and if you want I can cite them, the antidote (clinical not scientifically proven) that is sometimes used is Vitamin C, I've already read about Vitamin D being used (calciferol specifically).

That was all stated earlier. It is generally accepted that the LD50 in mice (specifically variantsC57BL/6, BALB/c, CD-1, SCID) are similar to those in humans.

Minimum toxic dose is also the average minimum dose prior to onset of visually observed to verbally mentioned symptoms.

 

[bloos]

That was all stated earlier. It is generally accepted that the LD50 in mice (specifically variantsC57BL/6, BALB/c, CD-1, SCID) are similar to those in humans.

Minimum toxic dose is also the average minimum dose prior to onset of visually observed to verbally mentioned symptoms.

If I get NAC within a few hours somehow (which I doubt, because I will blame my symptoms on my other medical condition and make it seem like I want to go to hospital), would it just reverse everything? Thats another major concern

 

[eve2004]

That was all stated earlier. It is generally accepted that the LD50 in mice (specifically variantsC57BL/6, BALB/c, CD-1, SCID) are similar to those in humans.

I respectfully disagree with this. Can you show us an article where it explicitly says that the LD50 for HUMANS is that amount that you mentioned?

It is generally accepted by who?

Estimation using model organisms[edit]

LD values for humans are best estimated by extrapolating results from human cell cultures. One form of measuring LD is to use model organisms, particularly animals like mice or rats, converting to dosage per kilogram of biomass, and extrapolating to human norms. The degree of error from animal-extrapolated LD values is large. The biology of test animals differs in important aspects to that of humans. For instance, mouse tissue is approximately fifty times less responsive than human tissue to the venom of the Sydney funnel-web spider[citation needed]​. The square–cube law also complicates the scaling relationships involved. Researchers are shifting away from animal-based LD measurements in some instances. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has begun to approve more non-animal methods in response to animal welfare concerns.[4]​

 

[Jrmull1993]

In the United States rodent testing of mice (classified with bio- markers C57BL/6, BALB/c, CD-1, and SCID) have proven to have similar mean lethal doses through multicentre evaluation of in vitro cytotoxicity (MEIC).

In the United States and Canada, This testing is what is required for all FDA approved medications and substance therapies.

Here is an article hosted by Sage Journals explaining the testing regime and comparison of median lethal doses in these types of rodents, in comparison to substances with a known median lethal dose in humans.

Here is an extract from the FDA's office of the registrar on using non-human specimen for the determination of human median lethal doses.

@eve2004 Its easy to get them confused, but its important to remember that the median lethal dose (LD50) is very different than the lowest published toxic dose (TDLO).

 

[eve2004]

Common name of prescriptiona	MLD (Moriah)	MLD (alt.suicide)

Tylenol (Acetamineophen):
Regular	40/325mg
Extra	26/500mg

Source: LAH.

In the United States rodent testing of mice (classified with bio- markers C57BL/6, BALB/c, CD-1, and SCID) have proven to have similar mean lethal doses through multicentre evaluation of in vitro cytotoxicity (MEIC).

In the United States and Canada, This testing is what is required for all FDA approved medications and substance therapies.

Here is an article hosted by Sage Journals explaining the testing regime and comparison of median lethal doses in these types of rodents, in comparison to substances with a known median lethal dose in humans.

Here is an extract from the FDA's office of the registrar on using non-human specimen for the determination of human median lethal doses.

@eve2004 Its easy to get them confused, but its important to remember that the median lethal dose (LD50) is very different than the lowest published toxic dose (TDLO).

Where are the articles?
What you are saying is that we're betting on the fact that the LD50 in mice/rats is similar to humans. Meanwhile, there is a ton of literature specifically on this drug that it is NOT. Not to mention the fact that if that were the case, all the amounts described on this site for all the substances would be very different. I won't go through them all, but needless to say, this would screw many people up. Would you tell someone thinking of OD'ing an inaccurate amount? What if they decide that since the LD50 is so high, 1/4 would be no big deal... while it is actually lethal.

Mainly and most importantly, I don't think we should be casually giving people numbers that we are not 100% sure of, especially when there are orders of magnitude of difference between 200mg/kg and 2000mg/kg.

Taking a chance with 900mg/kg without 100% intention to CTB because someone read here that the LD50 was 2000mg/kg is dangerous.

 

[Jrmull1993]

Common name of prescriptiona	MLD (Moriah)	MLD (alt.suicide)

Tylenol (Acetamineophen):
Regular	40/325mg
Extra	26/500mg

Source: LAH.

Where are the articles?
What you are saying is that we're betting on the fact that the LD50 in mice/rats is similar to humans. Meanwhile, there is a ton of literature specifically on this drug that it is NOT. Not to mention the fact that if that were the case, all the amounts described on this site for all the substances would be very different. I won't go through them all, but needless to say, this would screw many people up. Would you tell someone thinking of OD'ing an inaccurate amount? What if they decide that since the LD50 is so high, 1/4 would be no big deal... while it is actually lethal.

Mainly and most importantly, I don't think we should be casually giving people numbers that we are not 100% sure of, especially when there are orders of magnitude of difference between 200mg/kg and 2000mg/kg.

Your confused between what the TDLO and the LD50 are. They are completely different values because they are completely different measurements.

200mg/kg is documented as the TDLO. It's specifically states so in the manufacturer's SDS. 2,000mg/kg is the published LD50.

It's all documented information, Tested by the manufacturer and approved by the FDA.

 

[bloos]

Common name of prescriptiona	MLD (Moriah)	MLD (alt.suicide)

Tylenol (Acetamineophen):
Regular	40/325mg
Extra	26/500mg

Source: LAH.

Where are the articles?
What you are saying is that we're betting on the fact that the LD50 in mice/rats is similar to humans. Meanwhile, there is a ton of literature specifically on this drug that it is NOT. Not to mention the fact that if that were the case, all the amounts described on this site for all the substances would be very different. I won't go through them all, but needless to say, this would screw many people up. Would you tell someone thinking of OD'ing an inaccurate amount? What if they decide that since the LD50 is so high, 1/4 would be no big deal... while it is actually lethal.

Mainly and most importantly, I don't think we should be casually giving people numbers that we are not 100% sure of, especially when there are orders of magnitude of difference between 200mg/kg and 2000mg/kg.

Taking a chance with 900mg/kg without 100% intention to CTB because someone read here that the LD50 was 2000mg/kg is dangerous.

Your confused between what the TDLO and the LD50 are. They are completely different values because they are completely different measurements.

200mg/kg is documented as the TDLO. It's specifically states so in the manufacturer's SDS. 2,000mg/kg is the published LD50.

It's all documented information, Tested by the manufacturer and approved by the FDA.

I have 100% intention to ctb. I don't have enough knowledge or have done enough research to know if you or JRmull1993 is correct, but I was wondering if one of you know if somehow I get NAC within 4-8 hours of ingestion, it will completely reverse the 4800mg/kg I would have taken. I am planning to blame the pain and vomiting I will experience on chest pain and lower stomach pain which conincides with previous operations for a previous attempt, so I think it would be pretty believable , unless my bloodtests show problems with my liver and they decide to investigate, or they realise I haven't drained my stomach. I am extremely difficult IV access, and if I don't cooperate it would be even harder to put a line in and they may have to end up putting a midline in, making the process even harder.

 

[Jrmull1993]

I have 100% intention to ctb. I don't have enough knowledge or have done enough research to know if you or JRmull1993 is correct, but I was wondering if one of you know if somehow I get NAC within 4-8 hours of ingestion, it will completely reverse the 4800mg/kg I would have taken. I am planning to blame the pain and vomiting I will experience on chest pain and lower stomach pain which conincides with previous operations for a previous attempt, so I think it would be pretty believable , unless my bloodtests show problems with my liver and they decide to investigate, or they realise I haven't drained my stomach. I am extremely difficult IV access, and if I don't cooperate it would be even harder to put a line in and they may have to end up putting a midline in, making the process even harder.

Without knowing the health of your liver there is NO way of determining the effect or efficiency of NAC. N-acetylcysteine has a propensity to bond to protein, so the doce would be given over a certain period of time, determined by the amount of acetaminophen in the blood.

In an ambulatory setting, difficult IV access is meaningless nowadays, as rapid arterial and Intraosseous access can rapidly be obtained as an alternative

I'm sure @eve2004 will find a way to argue this factual info.

 

[eve2004]

Your confused between what the TDLO and the LD50 are. They are completely different values because they are completely different measurements.

200mg/kg is documented as the TDLO. It's specifically states so in the manufacturer's SDS. 2,000mg/kg is the published LD50.

It's all documented information, Tested by the manufacturer and approved by the FDA.

Let's see this documentation then.

This is not SN, it's not a PAINLESS death. It is a long and drawn out death. So someone who tries to take 2000mg/kg may need to use a different strategy to get it down and keep it down than 200mg/kg or even 1000mg/kg. It's misleading to simply say nothing short of 2000mg/kg will do it. There's a lot of things that can go wrong if someone intentionally or unintentionally ODs. So far I have seen no documentation or reference from you. If we don't know for sure, we should not tell OP anything at all. I have quoted multiple sources without simply interpreting what I read. OP can read the sources. There are sources to read except your persistent opinion on the subject.

Anyone reading this post should take any information here with a grain of salt (no pun intended). Don't simply accept what anyone speculates (including me) without doing your own research. Hence why it is better to give people sources to read the scientific information themselves and make a decision on their own.

I have 100% intention to ctb. I don't have enough knowledge or have done enough research to know if you or JRmull1993 is correct, but I was wondering if one of you know if somehow I get NAC within 4-8 hours of ingestion, it will completely reverse the 4800mg/kg I would have taken. I am planning to blame the pain and vomiting I will experience on chest pain and lower stomach pain which conincides with previous operations for a previous attempt, so I think it would be pretty believable , unless my bloodtests show problems with my liver and they decide to investigate, or they realise I haven't drained my stomach. I am extremely difficult IV access, and if I don't cooperate it would be even harder to put a line in and they may have to end up putting a midline in, making the process even harder.

I don't know enough about NAC, your situation, and reversing the ingested dose so I cannot and will not comment on that. I do think you should do some research on the subject to find out before you take any action. You seem certain that you will vomit. This is why I suggested that you read up for yourself what the LD50 is.

If someone on the SN thread said that the LD50 is 200g, would this change people's strategy? Of course. Should they back it up with references so that people can read up on this rather than believe a stranger on a forum. Definitely.

Same here.

 

[Jrmull1993]

Let's see this documentation then.

Hence why it is better to give people sources to read the scientific information themselves and make a decision on their own.

They've been provided in all my posts.... Here they are (again), in the same order in which I've previously provided them.

I suggest doing research prior to using your keyboard.

Link:
Attachment - SDS sheet for Acetaminophen

Link:
FDA accepted reference guidelines for determining human median lethal dose through the utilization of rodents.

Link:
Extract from the FDA's office of the registrar on using non-human specimen for the determination of human median lethal doses.

 

[eve2004]

Without knowing the health of your liver there is NO way of determining the effect or efficiency of NAC. N-acetylcysteine has a propensity to bond to protein, so the doce would be given over a certain period of time, determined by the amount of acetaminophen in the blood.

In an ambulatory setting, difficult IV access is meaningless nowadays, as rapid arterial and Intraosseous access can rapidly be obtained as an alternative

I'm sure @eve2004 will find a way to argue this factual info.

Where are all your sources? Give us something to read. Where does it say explicitly that the LD50 is 2000mg/kg. Quote the text. Tell us where to find it. So far I have shown references that show that your idea that mice and human LD50 is the same for this substance is debatable. Where are your sources and what year were they written in?

https://journals.sagepub.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/sage/journals/content/atla/2021/atla_49_1-2/0261192921994754/20210604/images/large/10.1177_0261192921994754-table1.jpeg

Have you read this table? The number is in the 200 range for HUMANS, and the number that is in the 2000 range is for RODENTS.
(source: one of your links)

 

[Jrmull1993]

The 200mg/kg you are somehow fascinated with has NOTHING to do with being a lethal dose.

It is the TDLO as stated in section 11.1 on page 5 of the SDS sheet. Which also has info on the LD50.

The FDA uses rodents and animals to determine the median lethal doses of humans, as No health study is going to get human volunteers to determine median lethal dosing. I didn't think items of common sense had to be source but apparently they do.

Just out of curiosity, if I had stated 2 + 2 = 4 would I have to provide a source for that too?

 

[eve2004]

It is reckless to state in an absolute way that the number is 2000mg/kg when it is clear that using rodents is no longer the gold standard to guessing human LD50.

It is reckless for many reasons:

1) As you said they do not test on humans
2) There are articles saying that this is not a reliable way to correlate 1 for 1 the LD50 for humans.
3) Same as 2) but definitely not for ALL drugs. Mice are less sensitive to plasma concentration of this substance. Read source I have above.
4) There are far more case studies of people who have died (a prolonged death) at way less than 2000mg/kg. So to tell anyone here that "it's highly unlikely this dose will be lethal." (OP's 1000mg total) is irresponsible.
5) In addition to 4), neither of us are in a position to determine that it will take more than they plan to take to CTB and to tell anyone that is just ridiculous.
6) If anyone here believes that the LD50 is what you say, and out of frustration takes a sub-lethal dose due to self-harm and not CTB, they could DIE.
7) If rats have 10X the LD50 than mice do according to your source, what do you think the difference is in humans? 1000X?
8) We simply do not know is the bottom line, and to tell anyone otherwise is reckless.


Edit: OP was previously hospitalized at about 20 000mg TOTAL Updated due to OP's update.

 

[Jrmull1993]

It is reckless to state in an absolute way that the number is 2000mg/kg when it is clear that using rodents is no longer the gold standard to guessing human LD50.

It is reckless for many reasons:

1) As you said they do not test on humans
2) There are articles saying that this is not a reliable way to correlate 1 for 1 the LD50 for humans.
3) Same as 2) but definitely not for ALL drugs. Mice are less sensitive to plasma concentration of this substance. Read source I have above.
4) There are far more case studies of people who have died (a prolonged death) at way less than 2000mg/kg. So to tell anyone here that "it's highly unlikely this dose will be lethal." (OP's 1000mg total) is irresponsible.
5) In addition to 4), neither of us are in a position to determine that it will take more than they plan to take to CTB and to tell anyone that is just ridiculous.
6) If anyone here believes that the LD50 is what you say, and out of frustration takes a sub-lethal dose due to self-harm and not CTB, they could DIE.
7) If rats have 10X the LD50 than mice do according to your source, what do you think the difference is in humans? 1000X?
8) We simply do not know is the bottom line, and to tell anyone otherwise is reckless.


Edit: OP was previously hospitalized at about 20 000mg TOTAL Updated due to OP's update.

You are a 100% right, It is absolutely reckless we should be testing for lethal doses on humans.

Screw the FDAs time proven testing regime. Let's round us up a 100 people, And perform lethal dose testing on them!

The stupidity of some people in this world is incredible!

It is reckless to state in an absolute way that the number is 2000mg/kg when it is clear that using rodents is no longer the gold standard to guessing human LD50.

It is reckless for many reasons:

1) As you said they do not test on humans

Incorrect. I stated (and provided corroborating evidence) that median lethal doses for humans are determined through testing on rodents.

2) There are articles saying that this is not a reliable way to correlate 1 for 1 the LD50 for humans.

Hmmm... you should reach out to the FDA. You've clearly discovered something they are not aware of.

3) Same as 2) but definitely not for ALL drugs. Mice are less sensitive to plasma concentration of this substance. Read source I have above.

Correct. There are various other rodents and animals that drugs are tested on. Which animal is chosen is based on which metabolic process breaks down a particular substance. Perhaps reading the sources you've requested.....

4) There are far more case studies of people who have died (a prolonged death) at way less than 2000mg/kg. So to tell anyone here that "it's highly unlikely this dose will be lethal." (OP's 1000mg total) is irresponsible.

Of course that's true, however the median dose at which 50% of subjects will die is determined to be 2000mg/kg. Therefore it is accurate (and responsible) to state that anything less has lower odds of being fatal.

5) In addition to 4), neither of us are in a position to determine that it will take more than they plan to take to CTB and to tell anyone that is just ridiculous.

Please elaborate on this. The OP asked the question and was provided with evidence backed data.

6) If anyone here believes that the LD50 is what you say, and out of frustration takes a sub-lethal dose due to self-harm and not CTB, they could DIE.

LD50 is not the lethal dose, and I have never represented it as such. As I've stated 6 times now, it is the median lethal dose. That is the dose at which 50% of subjects will die. It can be higher for some, and lower for others. If someone uses this data for self harm and dies, that is always a risk. If they are under the assumption that death is not possible, then they are dumb, and frankly deserving of the consequences.

7) If rats have 10X the LD50 than mice do according to your source, what do you think the difference is in humans? 1000X?

Actually, it's 80% of that dose as per the FDA, however for the metabolic breakdown of Acetamineophen, the FDA adds a 20% adder. If you've read the FDA SOG Ive uploaded you'd know that. Furthermore, it's stated in the SDS sheet directly from the manufacturer that the LD50 is 2,000mg/kg

8) We simply do not know is the bottom line, and to tell anyone otherwise is reckless.

We do know this information, and it has all been presented. Your misunderstanding of this topic is reckless.

Edit: OP was previously hospitalized at about 20 000mg TOTAL Updated due to OP's update.

As would be expected.....

 

[Euthanza]

LD50 means 50% of the observants experience lethal dose, and it's not the same for mice and human.

We should go for ED95 (effective dose 95%) in term of voluntary euthanasia but this was never happened because we don't experiment lethal dose with humans, hence LD95 was never heard.