[Hang setup] Siberian Hitch to attach rope to the trunk (!) of a spruce tree?

[Suizident]

Hello,

In one setup, only spruce trees are available as anchor points. Since
their branches are too weak, the rope should be attached to the trunk.

The recommendation was to attach the rope to the trunk of the
spruce tree using the Siberian Hitch. Then use a normal noose knot as a loop.

I couldn't find anything about the Siberian Hitch in the forum; apparently,
this setup hasn't been discussed here yet?

On the web, the Siberian Hitch is often recommended for "hanging" a
hammock, but it is inevitably suitable for heavy loads.

In this case, the special feature is that the force exerted
on the knot is such that it could theoretically slide down the trunk
even if the knot does not come undone. At least in theory, this could
be prevented by the Siberian Hitch tightening more and more
under load.


Can anyone comment on this? On the internet, the following are said
to be more resilient to the Siberian Hitch are the Taut-Line Hitch, the
Truckers Hitch, and the Highwayman's Hitch. However, these knots seem
to be intended more for tensioning a load than for hanging a load.

Hopefully, advanced users or knot and tree
experts will find this thread! :D

Many thanks and best regards,
Suizident

 

[AreWeWinning]

It's counterintuitive, I know, but hitches do not slide down on tree trunks – they hold perfectly well against a downward pull. There is enough friction between the tree's surface and the rope to prevent them from sliding down.

Arborists use similar setups on a daily basis for catching heavy logs as they fall, which creates a lot more force than what a human weighs. Check the following videos. (The links open at the relevant times.)

• A Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree below it: How to rig sections of trunk onto itself | Arborist Rigging techniques
• Another example of a Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree below it: Negative rigging BASICS - Full break down of how and why to negative rig a spar, with many tips
• A Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree above it. In this case, the whole setup is upside down, since he'll cut the tree at the bottom, so the rope will pull it upward: BIG RIGGING!

You don't necessarily need a Running Bowline. Any hitch that holds well against an angled pull will work, for example:

• An Anchor Hitch with an added stopper knot. You can also add an extra Half Hitch to the Anchor Hitch – which is basically just repeating the last step one more time – and then add a stopper knot.
• A Round Turn & Two Half Hitches with a stopper knot, or with an extra Half Hitch (making it three in total) and a stopper knot. This will flex more, but actually grips even better. Just make sure you pull on it and pre-tension it before applying full load.
• You can create a noose by tying a small Overhand Loop Knot and pulling the load end through it.
• Timber Hitch. If you use the Timber Hitch, possibly make more than three turns. Make 5 or 6, and make sure they go halfway around the tree, all the way to the back. I've seen this in a YouTube video, and it makes perfect sense.

I've tried these myself, and it works perfectly fine. Arborists use a Running Bowline because it's easy to tie and untie. But for us, it doesn't really matter what hitch is used, as long as it's secure.

Whichever hitch you use, add an extra loop around the tree below the main hitch.

Here are two examples below. One shows an Anchor Hitch, and the other one shows a Round Turn & Two Half Hitches. (There are no stopper knots on the images, but one can and should be added.)

Spoiler: Anchor Hitch with an extra Half Hitch, and with an extra loop around the tree

Spoiler: Round Turn & Two Half Hitches with an extra Half Hitch, and with an extra loop around the tree

Edit: I'm not familiar with the Siberian Hitch, so I can't comment on how secure it is (which is the main concern here).

 

[Suizident]

It's counterintuitive, I know, but hitches do not slide down on tree trunks – they hold perfectly well against a downward pull. There is enough friction between the tree's surface and the rope to prevent them from sliding down.

Arborists use similar setups on a daily basis for catching heavy logs as they fall, which creates a lot more force than what a human weighs. Check the following videos. (The links open at the relevant times.)

• A Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree below it: How to rig sections of trunk onto itself | Arborist Rigging techniques
• Another example of a Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree below it: Negative rigging BASICS - Full break down of how and why to negative rig a spar, with many tips
• A Running Bowline with an extra loop around the tree above it. In this case, the whole setup is upside down, since he'll cut the tree at the bottom, so the rope will pull it upward: BIG RIGGING!

You don't necessarily need a Running Bowline. Any hitch that holds well against an angled pull will work, for example:

• An Anchor Hitch with an added stopper knot. You can also add an extra Half Hitch to the Anchor Hitch – which is basically just repeating the last step one more time – and then add a stopper knot.
• A Round Turn & Two Half Hitches with a stopper knot, or with an extra Half Hitch (making it three in total) and a stopper knot. This will flex more, but actually grips even better. Just make sure you pull on it and pre-tension it before applying full load.
• You can create a noose by tying a small Overhand Loop Knot and pulling the load end through it.
• Timber Hitch. If you use the Timber Hitch, possibly make more than three turns. Make 5 or 6, and make sure they go halfway around the tree, all the way to the back. I've seen this in a YouTube video, and it makes perfect sense.

I've tried these myself, and it works perfectly fine. Arborists use a Running Bowline because it's easy to tie and untie. But for us, it doesn't really matter what hitch is used, as long as it's secure.

Whichever hitch you use, add an extra loop around the tree below the main hitch.

Here are two examples below. One shows an Anchor Hitch, and the other one shows a Round Turn & Two Half Hitches. (There are no stopper knots on the images, but one can and should be added.)

Spoiler: Anchor Hitch with an extra Half Hitch, and with an extra loop around the tree

View attachment 176814

Spoiler: Round Turn & Two Half Hitches with an extra Half Hitch, and with an extra loop around the tree

View attachment 176815

Edit: I'm not familiar with the Siberian Hitch, so I can't comment on how secure it is (which is the main concern here).

Hello,

Thank you for this detailed answer. I need to work through this step by step.


-----

What strikes me about the Siberian Hitch is that it has two loops at the end. An "upper" loop, which is used to attach it to the object in question. And a "lower loop," see the picture 5 below. This one is obviously very loose and can come undone at any time.

I'm wondering what the function of this lower loop is?

Many thanks and best regards,
Suizident

View attachment SIBERIAN-HITCH-DIAGRAM-STEP-BY-STEP-1.jpg.webp
------

UPDATE:

The more I think about it, the less sense I see in the lower loop.

By forming a loop with the lower end of the rope, the Siberian Hitch can come undone, e.g. if the end of the rope slips upwards and the lower loop is thereby loosened.

Why not just let the lower end of the rope hang down instead of bringing it back up again to form a loop?

I don't understand the purpose of this lower loop.
------

UPDATE:

The more I think about it, the less sense I see in the lower loop.

By forming a loop with the lower end of the rope, the Siberian Hitch can come undone, e.g. if the end of the rope slips upwards and the lower loop is thereby loosened.

Why not just let the lower end of the rope hang down instead of bringing it back up again to form a loop?

I don't understand the purpose of this lower loop.

 

[AreWeWinning]

By forming a loop with the lower end of the rope, the Siberian Hitch can come undone, e.g. if the end of the rope slips upwards and the lower loop is thereby loosened.

Why not just let the lower end of the rope hang down instead of bringing it back up again to form a loop?

I don't understand the purpose of this lower loop.

It's a quick-release hitch (also called a slipped hitch). The purpose of the "lower loop" is to provide a mechanism to quickly untie the hitch. There is no other purpose for it. If you pull on the tail end, the whole knot collapses and comes undone. This is useful for tying down a tent or tying a hammock to something, because you can take them down easily. But it also makes the knot less secure.

There are other slipped knots as well, which have a similar mechanism. For example, the Slipped Buntline Hitch, the Tumble Hitch, and many others. Or the Slip Knot, which is just a slipped (quick-release) version of the Overhand Knot.

You probably found the Siberian Hitch, because you were looking for knots to tie on a tree. But there's nothing special about the Siberian Hitch that makes it more suitable for a tree than any other knot. If you want a knot that cinches around the tree tightly, you can just use a Noose Knot + stopper knot (a.k.a an Arbor Knot or Canadian Jam Knot), or a Poacher's Knot. It's not wrong to use those, but not necessary either.

You would naturally think that a hitch has to cinch around the tree's trunk tightly to hold. However, this is not true. If you don't believe me, you can go to a tree and try. The tree's surface provides enough friction, even if the tree doesn't have thick bark. The size of the tree doesn't make much difference either. Note that this doesn't work on objects with smooth surfaces, e.g. metal poles – in which case a type of hitch called a friction hitch is needed – but it works perfectly on trees.

If you want to make it more secure, add an extra loop around the tree below the main hitch, as shown in the videos I linked earlier. You can also check the Killick Hitch, which is just a Timber Hitch with an extra loop around the tree below it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

In one setup, only spruce trees are available as anchor points. Since
their branches are too weak, the rope should be attached to the trunk.

If you sling your rope above one of the weak branches around the trunk, the weak branches will be strong enough to prevent the rope from sliding down. Than you only have to use the type of knot you would use to fix a rope at a horizontal beam.

On the web, the Siberian Hitch is often recommended for "hanging" a
hammock, but it is inevitably suitable for heavy loads.

A hammock causes a horizontal force component that increases the friction between rope and trunk up to self-locking. Step irons also use this horizontal force componenet to create a self-locking effect. I doubt that there is enough friction and self-locking if you only tie a rope around a trunk.

 

[AreWeWinning]

I doubt that there is enough friction and self-locking if you only tie a rope around a trunk.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one.

Look up "spar anchors" and "negative rigging". These are terms that arborists use.

Look at this video, at these times: 6:50 and 10:45. How much do those logs weigh? 100 kg? 200 kg? With the fall, how much force is there? Half a ton? A ton? And what's holding them? Simple loops around the trunk. No branches.

Or look at the guys in the following videos. They secure themselves with simple self-tightening loops around the trunk. They don't seem to be concerned about the rope sliding down. And these are trained professionals who know what they're doing and work according to safety standards.

Spar anchor example 1
Spar anchor example 2
Spar anchor example 3

You can doubt it – and I did too, to be honest – but did you actually go to a tree and try? I have. I tried it with thick rope, thin rope, on thicker trunks, thinner trunks... (See attached images.) It simply works, and works very well.

I know it's counter-intuitive, but simple loops around a tree's trunk absolutely hold against a downward pull.

 

[Suizident]

Off-topic Begin.

We are all practitioners here, I don't know if any physicists are reading this. The question is, of course, how the knot works and which force vectors are at work.

Off-Topic-End.

However, the knots in the pictures don't look like Siberian hitches to me.

In any case, the Siberian hitch looks different in the pictures I linked to.

EDIT:

Since I apparently haven't posted a picture of the Siberian Hitch yet, I'll do so now. The knot definitely looks different from the ones in the pictures linked above.

 

[Suizident]

It's a quick-release hitch (also called a slipped hitch). The purpose of the "lower loop" is to provide a mechanism to quickly untie the hitch. There is no other purpose for it. If you pull on the tail end, the whole knot collapses and comes undone. This is useful for tying down a tent or tying a hammock to something, because you can take them down easily. But it also makes the knot less secure.

And what do I do with the lower loop if the knot is never to be untied? Use a stopper knot instead of a loop?

 

[AreWeWinning]

We are all practitioners here, I don't know if any physicists are reading this. The question is, of course, how the knot works and which force vectors are at work.

It's not off-topic, and sadly, this tells me that you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. We don't need theoretical physicists or six university degrees to tie a rope to a tree.

My main point is that arborists use similar setups professionally, every day, and they have figured this out already. If that is not convincing enough, I don't know what is.

We could think about the physics of it – which I have done myself – but unless you get a piece of rope, go to a tree, and try, nothing will convince you. Someone could write you a 10k word essay on how it works, and you'd still be asking questions. Have you actually got a rope, and have you ever tried to tie any knots at all?

However, the knots in the pictures don't look like Siberian hitches to me.

In any case, the Siberian hitch looks different in the pictures I linked to.

Yes, they are Anchor Hitches (sometimes not even tied perfectly, but that's beside the point).

Why would I use a Siberian Hitch when that is a less secure hitch?

And what do I do with the lower loop if the knot is never to be untied? Use a stopper knot instead of a loop?

I guess you could do that, yes. I don't know what that would be called. I haven't seen it anywhere.

 

[Suizident]

You probably found the Siberian Hitch, because you were looking for knots to tie on a tree. But there's nothing special about the Siberian Hitch that makes it more suitable for a tree than any other knot. If you want a knot that cinches around the tree tightly, you can just use a Noose Knot + stopper knot (a.k.a an Arbor Knot or Canadian Jam Knot), or a Poacher's Knot. It's not wrong to use those, but not necessary either.

I accidentally posted the above text in the wrong language, so here it is in English:

But if you can simply replace a Siberian Hitch with a Noose Knot, why does the Siberian Hitch exist? According to Google, because you can tie it with one hand or with mittens.

Is that the only advantage of a Siberian hitch, and is the Siberian hitch not even stronger than other knots for anchoring to a tree trunk?

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Hello,

Thank you for this detailed answer. I need to work through this step by step.


-----

What strikes me about the Siberian Hitch is that it has two loops at the end. An "upper" loop, which is used to attach it to the object in question. And a "lower loop," see the picture 5 below. This one is obviously very loose and can come undone at any time.

I'm wondering what the function of this lower loop is?

Many thanks and best regards,
Suizident

View attachment 176836

------

UPDATE:

The more I think about it, the less sense I see in the lower loop.

By forming a loop with the lower end of the rope, the Siberian Hitch can come undone, e.g. if the end of the rope slips upwards and the lower loop is thereby loosened.

Why not just let the lower end of the rope hang down instead of bringing it back up again to form a loop?

I don't understand the purpose of this lower loop.
------

UPDATE:

The more I think about it, the less sense I see in the lower loop.

By forming a loop with the lower end of the rope, the Siberian Hitch can come undone, e.g. if the end of the rope slips upwards and the lower loop is thereby loosened.

Why not just let the lower end of the rope hang down instead of bringing it back up again to form a loop?

I don't understand the purpose of this lower loop.

The lower loop is essential for the function, it allows the down-force to be much higher than the up-forcce that pulls at the upper knot. It uses the effect described by the Euler-Eytelwein-equation about cable friction. But this is academic as we have so many sturdy German oaks in our country.

 

[Suizident]

Hello,

Thanks again for all your feedback.

I'd also like to thank you for your critical feedback, such as that from Ihnne and AreWeWinning.
This helps me to assess where I currently stand in terms of my knot-tying skills, also in comparison to others.

The Siberian Hitch was recommended to me for the setup when the anchor point is a trunk, i.e., not a branch (e.g., for fir or spruce trees). I found very little about this specific setup on the web and in forums, and opinions differ. This, combined with my inability (which is entirely my own fault) and my limited experience, means that I sometimes ask stupid questions.

AreWeWinning, now I see it: Your first picture is a Siberian Hitch with an additional loop, your second picture is, I think, a simple anchor knot, your third picture is an anchor knot with an additional loop, your fourth picture is again a simple anchor knot, your fifth and sixth pictures are again simple anchor knots, and your seventh picture is an anchor knot with a loop. All anchor knots have a stopper knot on top.

I think your first knot is a normal anchor knot (which makes sense, since the anchor is a branch), your second knot is an anchor knot with an additional "loop."

What I find confusing is that there are so many knots and sometimes different opinions about the value and function of a knot.


I interpret your images as meaning that in e In a setup with a trunk (!) and no branch, can I use an anchor knot with a stopper knot and an additional loop instead of a Siberian hitch? If so, that's what I would choose. I'm good at tying anchor knots, but I find Siberian hitches difficult, even though they are only classified as moderately difficult knots.


Here are a few of my knots:


1st picture: Anchor knot with additional loop
2nd picture: Siberian hitch (if I've done it correctly, can someone confirm this?)
3rd picture: Siberian hitch. Since I don't need the lower loop to untie it, I converted it into a stopper knot (can you do that?).


Best regards,
Suizident


Picture 1:



Picture 2:
(Please excuse the quality of the image. With the room lights off, the knot is easier to see due to better contrast. If you still can't see it, I'll take another picture.)



Picture 3:

Although the knots were tied on a rough, cylindrical object, all the knots slide down when I pull on the rope. I haven't tried it on a tree yet.
Strangely enough, AI recommends a bowline knot for this purpose (attaching a load vertically to a tree trunk). However, I consider a bowline knot unsuitable here, as the loop does not tighten by itself.

Among many other knots, the icicle hitch is also recommended for this purpose on the web, as is the double mast hitch (which I consider plausible, as it tightens more and more under load) and many, many other knots.

If there are no objections, I would use the anchor knot with a stopper knot and an additional loop (as shown by AreWeWinning), as described above.

I'm not yet comfortable with the Siberian Hitch, as I'm not always sure if I'm doing it correctly and find it difficult to remember.

The double clove hitch is also easy to do and makes sense to me, at least, but it is very rarely recommended for this purpose on the web.
In the knot thread, the anchor knot is characterized as "able to sleep," which seems to argue against using the anchor knot for this purpose? :(

Anchor Hitch:
difficulty: 2/5
adjustable: yes
pressure close: yes
durability: 4/5, look at comments
comments: loose string end may be able to slip, but haven't experienced that when practicing knot.

Quelle: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/knots-megathread-a-guide.138619/