Venting Guilt and other related emotions

[Isadeth]

How do you overcome guilt of ctb?

It's no secret I've been contemplating my exit. But due to this, my husband tries his best to "fix" me. Unfortunately, this fix isn't as simple as he thinks. A good day here and there... a nice family outing... a quiet movie... he believes these are the answer. They aren't. I love my family dearly but those days and events aren't keeping me here longer. What has kept me here is guilt.

I feel guilty for leaving my family since watching the hurt my father in law's death had on everyone when he ctb. I feel guilty for still planning my exit as I comfort my husband regarding his father. As he cries, I try to hold him and tell him it'll be okay, but I keep thinking of the extra pain I'll pass onto him.

Is this the "selfish" side that many talk about for those that ctb? Because I just want my own pain to stop. But I take into consideration his pain too, and there lies more guilt.

How long in his grieving process do I just say, "you're good now, I love you, bye!" Or am I trapped to keep helping him work through it? I feel obligated. I feel obligated to bring him as full circle as I can before departing. If that is even possible.

Will I ever not feel obligated out of guilt? Can this be overcome?

I've written before about how I'm jealous of my father in law. I'm angry and I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he succeeded, I'm angry that he went before I could, and I'm angry he left me with this guilt to try to fix what he left behind him.

Has anyone else experienced this? How are you overcoming it, if at all?

I'm tired. I am tired of the obligation. And to top it off, my dying mother in law states how grateful she is of me for sticking by her son and helping everyone through it, and for eventually when it's her time to pass too.

There's just guilt everywhere. When does it end?

 

[WillOxyWork]

You are in such a difficult position. I am so sorry. I don't have any advice, but I admire that you are being so considerate of how your husband would feel if you ctb.

 

[Isadeth]

You are in such a difficult position. I am so sorry. I don't have any advice, but I admire that you are being so considerate of how your husband would feel if you ctb.

Thank you. I don't want him to have to live with more pain and sadness, but at the same time I don't want to keep living with my own. It's a catch 22. Thank you for your kinda words ♡

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I don't have any advice either, but I empathize very strongly with you. I feel so much guilt and I think it's what has kept me here so long. I hope for a peaceful resolution for you.

 

[Isadeth]

I don't have any advice either, but I empathize very strongly with you. I feel so much guilt and I think it's what has kept me here so long. I hope for a peaceful resolution for you.

Thank you for your kind words ♡ I'm so sorry you're also experiencing this. I hope you find a pdaadtj resolution as well xx

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

There's a lot going on! You have my empathy and compassion.

Since because of your work you are able to view death objectively, I want to try to pull apart some of this emotional and social stuff and look at it objectively.

First, guilt is not an emotion but a message that has emotions attached to it. Guilt generally says one is not putting someone or something else first and is wrong for it. It usually negates the very real needs of the one it's put upon, and puts something else in front of it that "should" be more important and is "valid." Guilt takes away autonomy and causes resentment in the one it's put upon. Therefore, if you're acting out of guilt, it's not spontaneous or from the heart, so it's not a genuine act of giving. Whatever is being given is actually being taken, whether intentionally or not, without one's willingness, and depletes one's resource for purposes other than one would intend.

Then there's the unfortunate timing of your father-in-law suiciding. It's natural to feel resentment and to blame. Blame discharges discomfort and uncertainty, and puts the responsibility for it elsewhere. It doesn't sound like he did it "to" you with intention, but it directly affected you and so resulted in very inconvenient discomfort, and also interrupted your certainty about when and how to act on your same choice. His action got in the way of your intended action, and resulted in pain for the same person who will also feel pain for your intended action, which you are also not doing "to" him. I think that's a lot of where the concept of selfishness comes in, that people who care about or in some way rely upon the one who suicides will experience feelings and inconveniences as the result of a mindful act (though they would feel the same over an unexpected death from accident or illness), and so feel that the act was done "to" them. There is also blame assigned, and the guilt message that the other person did not put them, their needs, wishes, and convenience first. With suicide, the message is given to take on that guilt and not cause such things "to" others, and to make others' needs, wishes, and convenience paramount.

Then there is the concept of obligation, which is defined as an act or course of action to which a person is morally or legally bound; a duty or commitment. This one is challenging. Fear, guilt and obligation are often used to manipulate someone to act as another wishes. In this case, it doesn't sound like someone external is using obligation to manipulate you, it's coming from within. I would say that when you married your husband, you entered into a contract in which there are obligations to care for and support one another to the best of your capacities. Your husband is trying according to his capacity to support you. Yes, men generally try to fix. I think it's how they are wired. They can feel active and resolve problems. In many ways and in many situations it can be quite admirable and effective. So setting that aside, because I don't think it's a main issue here but is getting confused with it and adding to the resentment, I think there is indeed a moral obligation to him to support him because you signed up for that contract.

He knows that you have been suicidal, so it will not come as a surprise, and I don't think it's breaking the contract if your pain is such that you cannot live, any more than if you had a physical illness which overwhelmed your capacity to survive. The issue is the timing of your father-in-law's suicide. So, do you have the capacity to survive your pain in order to fulfill your obligation to your husband as his primary support and partner?

Marriage is a promise to put one another first, but it needs to be equal according to individual capabilities; one may take up the slack for another, but neither can consistently have the lion's share of putting the other first. There may be times where the balance is unequal, but then it should return to equal, and when needed, occasionally tip in the other direction. The point is that each has certain resources the other does not, and each contributes to the relationship by contributing to the other, but resources always need to be replenished. When a spring feeds a pool, and the pool gets low from having had a significant amount of water drawn from it, then the spring needs time to refill the pool before any more is withdrawn. Otherwise, the pool gets nasty and stagnant, drawing mosquitoes and flies, and getting covered with algae and it all turns to rot. It may even block up the spring, to the point it barely trickles if at all, and so the resource is no longer accessible. The spring may even blow somewhere else and cause damage.

A problem I see is that, as with guilt, you're not staying alive and giving of yourself and your resources to your husband from your heart and your will, but out of obligation, and so there are resentment and other negative emotions and thoughts. I think that obligation will only be able to motivate you for so long. At some point, if the pain becomes unmanageable, then it will tip the scales such that it outweighs any obligation.

From an outside perspective, recognizing I'm not the one going through it but you, and I don't know all the details, I think it's logical to continue on out of respect for your obligation that you committed to until it is even slightly outweighed by your pain and you can no longer do it. Then at least you will have as clear a conscience as possible. If you can also do it with love, it will make it less burdensome. But I caution against doing it with love out of guilt, because that's not love. Love takes will and conscious effort, and you do not have to make that effort unless you choose to.

 

[Isadeth]

There's a lot going on! You have my empathy and compassion.

Since because of your work you are able to view death objectively, I want to try to pull apart some of this emotional and social stuff and look at it objectively.

First, guilt is not an emotion but a message that has emotions attached to it. Guilt generally says one is not putting someone or something else first and is wrong for it. It usually negates the very real needs of the one it's put upon, and puts something else in front of it that "should" be more important and is "valid." Guilt takes away autonomy and causes resentment in the one it's put upon. Therefore, if you're acting out of guilt, it's not spontaneous or from the heart, so it's not a genuine act of giving. Whatever is being given is actually being taken, whether intentionally or not, without one's willingness, and depletes one's resource for purposes other than one would intend.

Then there's the unfortunate timing of your father-in-law suiciding. It's natural to feel resentment and to blame. Blame discharges discomfort and uncertainty, and puts the responsibility for it elsewhere. It doesn't sound like he did it "to" you with intention, but it directly affected you and so resulted in very inconvenient discomfort, and also interrupted your certainty about when and how to act on your same choice. His action got in the way of your intended action, and resulted in pain for the same person who will also feel pain for your intended action, which you are also not doing "to" him. I think that's a lot of where the concept of selfishness comes in, that people who care about or in some way rely upon the one who suicides will experience feelings and inconveniences as the result of a mindful act (though they would feel the same over an unexpected death from accident or illness), and so feel that the act was done "to" them. There is also blame assigned, and the guilt message that the other person did not put them, their needs, wishes, and convenience first. With suicide, the message is given to take on that guilt and not cause such things "to" others, and to make others' needs, wishes, and convenience paramount.

Then there is the concept of obligation, which is defined as an act or course of action to which a person is morally or legally bound; a duty or commitment. This one is challenging. Fear, guilt and obligation are often used to manipulate someone to act as another wishes. In this case, it doesn't sound like someone external is using obligation to manipulate you, it's coming from within. I would say that when you married your husband, you entered into a contract in which there are obligations to care for and support one another to the best of your capacities. Your husband is trying according to his capacity to support you. Yes, men generally try to fix. I think it's how they are wired. They can feel active and resolve problems. In many ways and in many situations it can be quite admirable and effective. So setting that aside, because I don't think it's a main issue here but is getting confused with it and adding to the resentment, I think there is indeed a moral obligation to him to support him because you signed up for that contract.

He knows that you have been suicidal, so it will not come as a surprise, and I don't think it's breaking the contract if your pain is such that you cannot live, any more than if you had a physical illness which overwhelmed your capacity to survive. The issue is the timing of your father-in-law's suicide. So, do you have the capacity to survive your pain in order to fulfill your obligation to your husband as his primary support and partner?

Marriage is a promise to put one another first, but it needs to be equal according to individual capabilities; one may take up the slack for another, but neither can consistently have the lion's share of putting the other first. There may be times where the balance is unequal, but then it should return to equal, and when needed, occasionally tip in the other direction. The point is that each has certain resources the other does not, and each contributes to the relationship by contributing to the other, but resources always need to be replenished. When a spring feeds a pool, and the pool gets low from having had a significant amount of water drawn from it, then the spring needs time to refill the pool before any more is withdrawn. Otherwise, the pool gets nasty and stagnant, drawing mosquitoes and flies, and getting covered with algae and it all turns to rot. It may even block up the spring, to the point it barely trickles if at all, and so the resource is no longer accessible. The spring may even blow somewhere else and cause damage.

A problem I see is that, as with guilt, you're not staying alive and giving of yourself and your resources to your husband from your heart and your will, but out of obligation, and so there are resentment and other negative emotions and thoughts. I think that obligation will only be able to motivate you for so long. At some point, if the pain becomes unmanageable, then it will tip the scales such that it outweighs any obligation.

From an outside perspective, recognizing I'm not the one going through it but you, and I don't know all the details, I think it's logical to continue on out of respect for your obligation that you committed to until it is even slightly outweighed by your pain and you can no longer do it. Then at least you will have as clear a conscience as possible. If you can also do it with love, it will make it less burdensome. But I caution against doing it with love out of guilt, because that's not love. Love takes will and conscious effort, and you do not have to make that effort unless you choose to.

A vast majority of what you have stated is true. I'm trying to act out of love and empathy for him. However, in return he'll look at me and state, "promise me you're not leaving me. I can't go through this again..." which tears my heart out and the obligation of our vows creep in my head, the empathy I see him suffering creeps in.

I absolutely can understand his side, and it hurts. Guilt was never meant as a malicious term, but rather an overwhelming tought pattern of over analyzing every emotion, panic attack, and flashback I see him endure. I do my best to comfort, but even while doing so, he again states, "I can't do this without you, please don't leave me. Promise me!"

I'm just sad. I feel trapped. And maybe I shouldn't feel that way, but I do. It's heartbreaking, because he really is a good man and father, but ever since he lost his father he's more vulnerable... as this was his first experience with death. So I'm at a loss on how to even proceed for myself. I don't want to hurt him, I love him. But I do believe I should see him through this loss and offer any and all support I can, until I can't anymore. Ugh I'm just so tired @GoodPersonEffed

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@Isadeth, those cries for you to promise you're not leaving him and that he can't go through this again -- I feel it. I feel for both of you.

Sad, trapped, having to summon the strength to support others, tired -- this sounds like the eternal burden and suffering of being a woman, in any culture.

Seriously, men can fix some shit, but we have a strength and ability to handle the longhaul that men cannot comprehend. They draw from it, but most don't truly get it. I talked about how men are wired; this is how women are wired. We almost always have to give so much more. We have the resources but, dammit, they so rarely get fully replenished, let alone recognized and validated.

Even Gautama Buddha looked at women and said, "Y'all are fucked. Try to get reborn as a man. It's a far superior experience. Yes, women are equal spiritually and can go toe-to-toe with monks, even surpass them [same as in the early Christian church], but society will lose its ever-loving shit if I make you equal to them [same as in the early Christian church]. I'm taking a risk for all of us in the sangha even agreeing to welcome you in as nuns, much as you deserve it. Get on that better rebirth, that's the best I can offer you."

I don't remember what part of the Palī Cannon I got that quote from or I would cite it.

 

[Isadeth]

@Isadeth, those cries for you to promise you're not leaving him and that he can't go through this again -- I feel it. I feel for both of you.

Sad, trapped, having to summon the strength to support others, tired -- this sounds like the eternal burden and suffering of being a woman, in any culture.

Seriously, men can fix some shit, but we have a strength and ability to handle the longhaul that men cannot comprehend. They draw from it, but most don't truly get it. I talked about how men are wired; this is how women are wired. We almost always have to give so much more. We have the resources but, dammit, they so rarely get fully replenished, let alone recognized and validated.

Even Gautama Buddha looked at women and said, "Y'all are fucked. Try to get reborn as a man. It's a far superior experience. Yes, women are equal spiritually and can go toe-to-toe with monks, even surpass them [same as in the early Christian church], but society will lose its ever-loving shit if I make you equal to them [same as in the early Christian church]. I'm taking a risk for all of us in the sangha even agreeing to welcome you in as nuns, much as you deserve it. Get on that better rebirth, that's the best I can offer you."

I don't remember what part of the Palī Cannon I got that quote from or I would cite it.

Thank you for "getting it"... you definitely have a way with words and a perspective into the opposite sex and dynamics. Thank you listening to me vent, and thank you for validating my feelings from it. It really means a lot to me, especially now. ♡ xx

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Thank you for "getting it"... you definitely have a way with words and a perspective into the opposite sex and dynamics. Thank you listening to me vent, and thank you for validating my feelings from it. It really means a lot to me, especially now. ♡ xx

I'm so glad I got it and was able to support you. If not me, then I hope someone would have been able to do it.

It's so good to be heard and understood. It's so important and doesn't happen nearly enough.

I'm still dealing with not being heard from situations that have been over for years and the people no longer in my life, so I understand how detrimentally negating and draining it can be.

I know it would be better if your husband could be the one to hear you and get it, but at least it was available from somewhere, which reaffirms to me the great value in speaking up and reaching out for support; sometimes it actually results in getting a need met.

We humans are reciprocal, and I'm glad I got to enjoy a reciprocal moment with you, not only the moment of connection and enjoying the pleasure of my efforts having been effective, I really got a lot out of and enjoyed writing that last comment, especially the "quote" from Buddha.

Anyhow, back to the very deserving focus of you! I wish you well and all the best possible outcomes. Shit is difficult and heavy, I hope your burdens will be lightened.

 

[rhiino]

I can feel the pain of your situation and I can understand your frustration. I also feel much guilt because of the pain my suicide will cause to the people I love. It is a very tricky situation, as it is either your pain or theirs. Many people in this forum have a problem with it, maybe more than with SI.

 

[Isadeth]

I can feel the pain of your situation and I can understand your frustration. I also feel much guilt because of the pain my suicide will cause to the people I love. It is a very tricky situation, as it is either your pain or theirs. Many people in this forum have a problem with it, maybe more than with SI.

I absolutely have more guilt keeping me here than si. I'm sorry you can also relate to my frustration. It's a heavy trade off in terms of releasing yourself or preserving others. It doesn't seem fair. I understand it, but it still doesn't seem fair.

 

[WillOxyWork]

I'm immediately starting to relate a lot more to this. I was really thinking I would ctb tomorrow so I tried talking to my parents and a close friend about the possibility that I may not be around much longer. My dad didn't seem to care, but my mother warned me that I would devastate the family. My friend said he wasn't going to call the cops on me to get help as long as I give a genuine, concerted effort at life for him, for the sake of our lifelong friendship. I feel so guilted into staying alive now.

 

[Isadeth]

I'm immediately starting to relate a lot more to this. I was really thinking I would ctb tomorrow so I tried talking to my parents and a close friend about the possibility that I may not be around much longer. My dad didn't seem to care, but my mother warned me that I would devastate the family. My friend said he wasn't going to call the cops on me to get help as long as I give a genuine, concerted effort at life for him, for the sake of our lifelong friendship. I feel so guilted into staying alive now.

I'm sorry you're also feeling this. It's difficult, because I understand their pleas and bargaining come from a place of love, but it makes it more difficult. ♡ I hope you're having a good day xx

 

[Eternity]

Oh wow I know exactly how you feel. Virtual hug over here

My boyfriend ctb just five months ago, kinda out of the blue (despite the fact we both struggled with depression). These emotions, anger, guilt, I know what you mean. I wished he took me with him when ctb. But I also saw and experienced the massive grief and sadness (and I still do) he left behind. And how prepared you are, even if you have a note, friends and family will always have questions.

Guilt is the only thing that's keeping me going. I don't think it'll ever fade, but I fear that there will be a day when I just can't stand the pain and suffering anymore and feel like I have no other choice.

 

[Bauhaus]

It's a catch22 indeed, I compare guilt with a large open wound where you rub salt in daily.
To quote H.L Mencken: "Conscience is a mother in-law whose visits never end".
I hope you find a peacefull solution for your dilemma, as GoodPersonEffed mentioned: "when the pain becomes unmanageable, then it will tip the scales such that it outweighs any obligation ".

 

[everydayiloveyou]

I think there is nothing we can do to reduce people's guilt, and similarly there's very little we can do to feel less guilty about the choices we make.

The thing is, for those who choose to ctb, they don't have to deal with those feelings anymore. They're gone. It doesn't matter to them because they wont ever know. They left with the feelings and knowledge they had at the time and that's it. But the people we leave behind will harbor those feelings of guilt, shame, loneliness, and I-should-have's for the rest of their lives. That's the knowledge you have to part with when you choose to ctb.

You can choose to go when your husband is feeling happy and "over" his grief. And he will still feel incredibly sad and guilty to see you go. He will feel guilty for letting his guard down, for not noticing, etc... All sorts of things that you will never ever know. So will the rest of your family. There's literally nothing you can do, because why shouldn't they feel that way? Even people who clearly don't give a shit about you in life might feel that pang of guilt upon seeing your memorial post on Facebook or something. It's a natural human emotion.

Suicide especially is unique in that many people will never understand what it's like to be in that headspace. It's very easy to look at some peiople's suffering and think that it's not so bad that you'd have to ctb. In any circumstance it seems like a confusing, senseless, and sometimes even selfish death. That's what the people you love will think. In most cases no one is going to think "well its her choice, at least shes out of her misery," because they love you and don't want to imagine that you were in pain and they could not help you with it.

All you can do is get your affairs in order as much as possible so that your loved ones can focus completely on mourning for you. After all they'll feel even worse if you go and they're left with the bills and mortgages and loose ends that most people leave behind. There's nothing you can do to reduce their suffering, but maybe you'll feel better (less guilty) knowing that your loved ones will at least be secure when you go.