gender identity and social constructs

[encore]

i think the mistake people make a lot when discussing gender or any social roles is that they are conflating purely psychological/social phenomena with the physical, logical world. the way our minds, consciousness and society function has little to do with our physical attributes, they just happen to hinge on them historically for one reason or the other.

assigning value and meaning to certain physical occurrences is the "concepts" we create, which stays separate from the very thing we're trying to describe or understand. social constructs are by nature absurd as they are not governed by the laws of physics and are not absolute. they change with time, generations of people and even physical location. one could say that not being rooted in physical reality makes those concepts inherently worthless, however, the mere concept of value itself is no less absurd if you really think about it. we create our own meaning and value, which is why cultural and personal values should not be overlooked or treated as "less than" in comparison with physical reality. after all, this is all we have, as conscious thinking brains.

our brains are wired to categorize, label and interpret things in a way that is most efficient, which ultimately for many results in black and white thinking. it is easy to look at everything through the lense of "good or bad", "fact or fiction", "this or that". but the truth always lies somewhere in the middle; and once you understand it, looking at our world in such simple manner feels wrong.

there is nothing definitive or certain about a sense of identity. we might be living on the same planet, but our experiences vary so drastically that trying to make sense or rationalize someone's sense of self is foolish and ultimately impossible. which is why i just can't wrap my mind around the concept of any kind of -phobia. some of it is because of my own belief as i described above, other is because i just don't understand why people care so much about how someone lives their life :p

 

[isthisit?]

Id say that, as a more conservative guy, you cant really argue "Its my life", because we are living in a society and where you go and what you do affects other people.

My whole take on gender is that of you want to be something else, then fine. if it doesnt affect me then I dont care, but recently the idea of gender is being pushed in schools and marches and its starting to actually affect us. Thats where I draw the line.

 

[missy_jo]

Id say that, as a more conservative guy, you cant really argue "Its my life", because we are living in a society and where you go and what you do affects other people.

My whole take on gender is that of you want to be something else, then fine. if it doesnt affect me then I dont care, but recently the idea of gender is being pushed in schools and marches and its starting to actually affect us. Thats where I draw the line.

Except it's not being "pushed in the schools." That is false.

Being trans is just a thing some people are. Same as some are gay or not. Same as some are left handed, or whatever. Giving kids who aren't straight, cisgender, white, etc. etc representation isn't "pushing" anything; it's letting them know they're not alone and not "bad" for being who they are.

If gay kids hear a straight teacher talk about her husband, is that "pushing" straightness on gay kids? Of course not! Simply letting kids know that certain people exist (gay, trans, ethnicity, religion, etc) isn't pushing anything.

And preventing trans people from accessing care is not only cruel, but goes against studied, proven medical recommendations and standards by countless professionals. And I'll quickly add that the "studies" that say otherwise, like the Cass Review for example, have been found highly flawed. In December, France released a very comprensive review of available data, and the findings supported trans care for youth. Just today or yesterday or this week, Germany, Sweden, and I believe another country or two also found the evidence extremely strong in support of trans care for youth.

The people stripping trans people of legal rights in the US by way of reversing or stopping document corrections, preventing access to healthcare, or even firing/purging trans or other LGBTQ people from their government jobs are doing so as part of well orchestrated attack meant to dehumanize trans people. That should scare anyone and everyone, conservative, liberal, or otherwise.

But instead, we have huge swaths of the general public believing lies about trans people.

It's extremely sad, and deadly to many, to see the US back track on human rights, and do so based on lies about trans people, be they lies about biology (spoiler alert, it's not as simple as a 5th grade health class), lies about pushing agendas in schools, lies about proven medical care, etc, etc.

 

[isthisit?]

Except it's not being "pushed in the schools." That is false.

Being trans is just a thing some people are. Same as some are gay or not. Same as some are left handed, or whatever. Giving kids who aren't straight, cisgender, white, etc. etc representation isn't "pushing" anything; it's letting them know they're not alone and not "bad" for being who they are.

If gay kids hear a straight teacher talk about her husband, is that "pushing" straightness on gay kids? Of course not! Simply letting kids know that certain people exist (gay, trans, ethnicity, religion, etc) isn't pushing anything.

And preventing trans people from accessing care is not only cruel, but goes against studied, proven medical recommendations and standards by countless professionals. And I'll quickly add that the "studies" that say otherwise, like the Cass Review for example, have been found highly flawed. In December, France released a very comprensive review of available data, and the findings supported trans care for youth. Just today or yesterday or this week, Germany, Sweden, and I believe another country or two also found the evidence extremely strong in support of trans care for youth.

The people stripping trans people of legal rights in the US by way of reversing or stopping document corrections, preventing access to healthcare, or even firing/purging trans or other LGBTQ people from their government jobs are doing so as part of well orchestrated attack meant to dehumanize trans people. That should scare anyone and everyone, conservative, liberal, or otherwise.

But instead, we have huge swaths of the general public believing lies about trans people.

It's extremely sad, and deadly to many, to see the US back track on human rights, and do so based on lies about trans people, be they lies about biology (spoiler alert, it's not as simple as a 5th grade health class), lies about pushing agendas in schools, lies about proven medical care, etc, etc.

What I mean by pushing is largely promoting something that isnt a norm, like being trans. I think being trans is optional so you are on your own when it comes to deciding that you want to switch. Meanwhile being black is not an option, its a fact and you cant change it so that does need support.

When it comes to accessing health care, I agree with you that if its possible than it should be an option (But then the government shouldnt be responsible for providing it)

When it comes to whether trans people are valid, Id say that constructs like gender are made up in my opinion. Our physical bodies literally make up our sex and there shouldnt be anything past that. Everything else is just feelings which change and shouldnt be taken as fact.


Now this doesnt mean that I hate trans people. I have a trans friend and shes cool, because She doesnt push his ideology on us. When I first met her she looked like she couldve been both, but we dont have gendered pronouns like he or her here so we didnt have any problems. I only found out she was trans after 2 months of knowing her.

 

[leloyon]

Broke: gender is a social construct
Woke: sex is a social construct

I think being trans is optional so you are on your own when it comes to deciding that you want to switch.

I did not choose to suffer from crippling dysphoria.

 

[missy_jo]

Except it is not a choice. No one chooses to be trans. When a 4 year old raised in a very conservative, Christian home tells their parents they are not the sex or gender they were assigned at birth, and that insistence lasts for years and years, that is not a choice. They are absolutely born that way.

But never mind an anecdote like that, biology also supports a possible spectrum for sex. It's not as clear as XX and XY - Female and Male. What happens when an SRY gene goes off a Y chromosome to an X chromosome, do you know? What about receptors on cells that that don't respond to sex hormones as they "should" based on assumed chromosomes, are you aware of that? There literally so many possible and known variations that to say biological sex is only male and only female is preposterous. Is it that way more most people? Yes. But not for everyone.

And I'm not saying being trans is the same as intersex, not at all. Science doesn't support that. (though it may well in the future based on what we know) But the science does show these possible combinations and when we have very solid medical data showing the benefits of trans care to their health -- how is that a choice? It's clearly not.

So when you say being black is not a choice and needs the support of representation, then by your own logic, so would being trans, because it's not a choice. Trans people are born trans. Trans rights are human rights. Wanting access to healthcare and corrected documents, and protections in employment, housing, etc discrimination isn't pushing it on anyone or shoving it in anyone's face. It's basic rights that should exist to everyone.

 

[isthisit?]

Except it is not a choice. No one chooses to be trans. When a 4 year old raised in a very conservative, Christian home tells their parents they are not the sex or gender they were assigned at birth, and that insistence lasts for years and years, that is not a choice. They are absolutely born that way.

But never mind an anecdote like that, biology also supports a possible spectrum for sex. It's not as clear as XX and XY - Female and Male. What happens when an SRY gene goes off a Y chromosome to an X chromosome, do you know? What about receptors on cells that that don't respond to sex hormones as they "should" based on assumed chromosomes, are you aware of that? There literally so many possible and known variations that to say biological sex is only male and only female is preposterous. Is it that way more most people? Yes. But not for everyone.

And I'm not saying being trans is the same as intersex, not at all. Science doesn't support that. (though it may well in the future based on what we know) But the science does show these possible combinations and when we have very solid medical data showing the benefits of trans care to their health -- how is that a choice? It's clearly not.

So when you say being black is not a choice and needs the support of representation, then by your own logic, so would being trans, because it's not a choice. Trans people are born trans. Trans rights are human rights. Wanting access to healthcare and corrected documents, and protections in employment, housing, etc discrimination isn't pushing it on anyone or shoving it in anyone's face. It's basic rights that should exist to everyone.

My brother in christ, when I was 4 years old, I was watching cartoons in kindergarden. If my kid told me that he was trans I would 100% not believe him because he is not mature enough to make decisions like that.

Im gonna sum up with this:
1. There is a clear difference between a male and a female. there is a clear difference in body structure and strength. One cant be another because of the physical facts.
2. Id say the biggest 2 problem for me, when it comes to believing transgenderism is that its based on feelings and that over history, transgenderism started to pop up in the 50s but why hasnt there been transgender people before? why has transgenderism started to burst right now right as the lgbt movement is at its peak? Its a fad.

 

[TheHolySword]

My brother in christ, when I was 4 years old, I was watching cartoons in kindergarden. If my kid told me that he was trans I would 100% not believe him because he is not mature enough to make decisions like that.

Im gonna sum up with this:
1. There is a clear difference between a male and a female. there is a clear difference in body structure and strength. One cant be another because of the physical facts.
2. Id say the biggest 2 problem for me, when it comes to believing transgenderism is that its based on feelings and that over history, transgenderism started to pop up in the 50s but why hasnt there been transgender people before? why has transgenderism started to burst right now right as the lgbt movement is at its peak? Its a fad.

You know nothing of history. Do not speak when you are so ignorant of facts. It's people like you that have led to transgender people hiding all their lives. It's people like you that turn a blind eye to the cleansing in front of you.

 

[leloyon]

2. Id say the biggest 2 problem for me, when it comes to believing transgenderism is that its based on feelings and that over history, transgenderism started to pop up in the 50s but why hasnt there been transgender people before? why has transgenderism started to burst right now right as the lgbt movement is at its peak? Its a fad.

There has, it just has either been suppressed or not explicitly labelled as transgender, the Roman empress Elagabalus perhaps being the most notorious example.
In any case, transgender people only becoming open when homosexuality, which had previously been labelled a sin that caused people to burn in hell and was actively suppressed and even illegal in many places such as the "free" Western countries, was starting to gain some acceptance? Gee, must just be a fad.

 

[missy_jo]

My brother in christ, when I was 4 years old, I was watching cartoons in kindergarden. If my kid told me that he was trans I would 100% not believe him because he is not mature enough to make decisions like that.

Im gonna sum up with this:
1. There is a clear difference between a male and a female. there is a clear difference in body structure and strength. One cant be another because of the physical facts.
2. Id say the biggest 2 problem for me, when it comes to believing transgenderism is that its based on feelings and that over history, transgenderism started to pop up in the 50s but why hasnt there been transgender people before? why has transgenderism started to burst right now right as the lgbt movement is at its peak? Its a fad.

You are extremely misinformed. There is documented history of trans and/or gender variant people throughout history. The 50s you say? Lol, the first attempted gender affirming surgery was before the 1950s. Jeez. There was a well known native chief in modern day Ohio known as as Tecumseh who had a very well known and well documented gender variant sibling, and that dates to the late 1700s. And seriously, on and on it goes. There is so much history! WTF, no history?!!?

Let me ask you something, how often do you think about your femur? Like, how often do you notice it going about your daily life? Probably none, or at least, not much. But what if your femur was broken? You'd notice it then! That is what sex and gender is like for trans people: a broken bone. It's why you can't possibly understand a child knowing that this is something about them, because when you were young, there was no "broken bone," that is to say, no incongruence between your mind and your body. That incongurance is known as gender dysphoria. It's a medical thing. If you think anyone chooses gender dysphoria, well... No one chooses it. And it is how children know.

You know, I'm probably done replying. I've mentioned some science (SRY gene), some studies, medical data, history, etc that all prove being trans is not a choice and someone is born that way. I really can't continue with someone who just states their opinion without backing it up. It's a choice because you think it is? Because your experience tells you it is? Well scientists and medical professionals disagree vehemently with you, as do the experience of trans people.

 

[Rymrgand]

What I mean by pushing is largely promoting something that isnt a norm, like being trans. I think being trans is optional so you are on your own when it comes to deciding that you want to switch. Meanwhile being black is not an option, its a fact and you cant change it so that does need support.

When it comes to accessing health care, I agree with you that if its possible than it should be an option (But then the government shouldnt be responsible for providing it)

When it comes to whether trans people are valid, Id say that constructs like gender are made up in my opinion. Our physical bodies literally make up our sex and there shouldnt be anything past that. Everything else is just feelings which change and shouldnt be taken as fact.


Now this doesnt mean that I hate trans people. I have a trans friend and shes cool, because She doesnt push his ideology on us. When I first met her she looked like she couldve been both, but we dont have gendered pronouns like he or her here so we didnt have any problems. I only found out she was trans after 2 months of knowing her.

Transexuality is not ideology, it's science, and therefore it should be taught in school. And the government should be responsible of providing for healthcare for any severe issue, obviously.

My brother in christ, when I was 4 years old, I was watching cartoons in kindergarden. If my kid told me that he was trans I would 100% not believe him because he is not mature enough to make decisions like that.

Im gonna sum up with this:
1. There is a clear difference between a male and a female. there is a clear difference in body structure and strength. One cant be another because of the physical facts.
2. Id say the biggest 2 problem for me, when it comes to believing transgenderism is that its based on feelings and that over history, transgenderism started to pop up in the 50s but why hasnt there been transgender people before? why has transgenderism started to burst right now right as the lgbt movement is at its peak? Its a fad.

There has been queer (trans, NB, etc.) people in the whole history of humanity. Asking why they started to "burst" as the lgtb movement is at its peak is the same as asking why happy women started to burst as feminism is at its peak.

 

[ForgottenAgain]

Just wanted to say that, the arguments in this thread are quite well written. It was nice to read through.