Full face snorkel mask and inert gas (nitrogen/argon)?

[oopswronglife]

It seems the bag method with inert gas is fragile and can leak or be removed with movements. Scuba masks seem difficult to adapt properly and the demand regulators present a problem as while there is one case in literature of someone using that system, it's hard to adapt and seems to present complications. I'd like someone to "logic check" the idea of using a normal inert gas tank, flowmeter, and tubing...but instead of a bad or weird adaptations just putting the tubing down a full face snorkel mask's snorkel and sealing with tape or epoxy etc and using that like a more sturdy bag with a good seal. These masks have one way inlet and one way outlet meant to breath in air and breathe out CO2. It seems a lot simpler than Scuba regulators and connectors since the point is to get the gas in and CO2 out and simpler is better. Really any sealing mask with an inlet and outlet would seem to work as well...like an industrial filter mask etc. My logic is you just have to seal the inlet around the tubing so air/o2 doesnt mix in, and the outlet valve would work as intended.

Here is a diagram:

 

[Genetics]

It seems the bag method with inert gas is fragile and can leak or be removed with movements. Scuba masks seem difficult to adapt properly and the demand regulators present a problem as while there is one case in literature of someone using that system, it's hard to adapt and seems to present complications. I'd like someone to "logic check" the idea of using a normal inert gas tank, flowmeter, and tubing...but instead of a bad or weird adaptations just putting the tubing down a full face snorkel mask's snorkel and sealing with tape or epoxy etc and using that like a more sturdy bag with a good seal. These masks have one way inlet and one way outlet meant to breath in air and breathe out CO2. It seems a lot simpler than Scuba regulators and connectors since the point is to get the gas in and CO2 out and simpler is better. Really any sealing mask with an inlet and outlet would seem to work as well...like an industrial filter mask etc. My logic is you just have to seal the inlet around the tubing so air/o2 doesnt mix in, and the outlet valve would work as intended.

Here is a diagram:

My dad's bag remained in place because he tied it with a string. When he was found the tube to the tanks had fallen out but obviously that happened after he was dead or passed out, because then he would have suffocated with the bag even if after he passed out the inert gas tube came out. If I do this method I will actually attached the tube in such a way that it shouldn't fall out. Did you see the diagram I posted from a medical research study? It really helped me visualize the whole set up. I didn't find my dad, my brother did as he was visiting at the time and I lived elsewherre.

 

[oopswronglife]

bag

I am just leery of the bad because its fragile. Thin plastic and tape/string don't give me enough confidence. It can be pulled off, torn, moved by involuntary movement a lot easier than a strapped on mask. I've read enough failure reports of exit bags to be afraid. Part of that is surely because there are a lot more cases using them, but still...can't risk it.

If I went this route I want a sealed mask of some sort. Maybe a bag over that for insurance but I just do not trust only that layer. I am just trying to figure out if there are any technical issues I am missing. Scuba (multi stage on demand regulators etc that might not activate properly with shallow breathing/complicated physical adaptors for different standard tanks/hoses) adaptation is too complicated from reading around, and a mask like I posted should be much simpler unless I am missing something obvious.

 

[Genetics]

I am just leery of the bad because its fragile. Thin plastic and tape/string don't give me enough confidence. It can be pulled off, torn, moved by involuntary movement a lot easier than a strapped on mask. I've read enough failure reports of exit bags to be afraid. Part of that is surely because there are a lot more cases using them, but still...can't risk it.

If I went this route I want a sealed mask of some sort. Maybe a bag over that for insurance but I just do not trust only that layer. I am just trying to figure out if there are any technical issues I am missing. Scuba (multi stage on demand regulators etc that might not activate properly with shallow breathing/complicated physical adaptors for different standard tanks/hoses) adaptation is too complicated from reading around, and a mask like I posted should be much simpler unless I am missing something obvious.

Buy a sturdy bag, don't use a shopping once use bag or something like that. You can get reinforced trash bags pretty much anywhere.

Can't see what you posted earlier as it takes me to the national suicide hotline page. Sorry.

It seems way too hard to me to do the conversion of the regulators.

I'll give some more thought to a different head cover that you can use instead. I have a pretty good death and dying methods.

 

[oopswronglife]

I am not using a bag. No amount of explanation will make me feel ok with that. I am not asking about regulators and conversion. I clearly said that. Anyone can google "full face snorkel mask" and see what I mean. It seems SS exposes itself in links and sites are blocking/referring to the hotline.

I need someone to fact check my idea...not tell me to do something else I don't want to do based on half info or feelings they have without understanding the idea. I understand you mean well but it frustrates me how this happens...then people get offended when you don't agree or accept. It's like asking a tech question and you get 5 answers...3 answering things you didn't ask...one calling you an idiot...one saying "here is how I solved it" and linking to a dead site. It's part of why I want out of this fucking world...everything is too hard and people make it worse.

 

[kerolox]

You might need some sort or air reservoir between the regulator and the mask to be able to breathe easily and freely (like the bag you often see on oxygen masks) else the rate you are able to breathe in will be limited to the flow rate of the gas.

 

[oopswronglife]

You might need some sort or air reservoir between the regulator and the mask to be able to breathe easily and freely (like the bag you often see on oxygen masks) else the rate you are able to breathe in will be limited to the flow rate of the gas.

I've been thinking about that. Normal breathing volume per minute is 8-10 liters for an adult. Inert gas guides say use 15 liters per min to keep a bag full enough if going that route. That seems to say the flow rate into the mask would exceed the volume needed each minute. Another question is would the excess pressure/flow above what you breath in be enough to activate the outflow valve and vent out of the mask, or do those valves require lung pressure blowing out to open. In an exit bag anything extra is free to vent from the bag opening, in a sealed mask if it cannot get out through the valve it seems like it would compromise the face seal but I don't know. There will be constant in and out with breathing but just not sure if excess inflow will be an issue or just escape with each exhalation or blow through the outflow valve when needed. That is where the Scuba mask setup does have an advantage as it only gives you what you breath in, not a constant flow. But again that's much trickier to adapt to bottles and a lot more expensive. Trying to keep it simple but more reliable than a plastic bag.

*Now that I think about it, and correct me if it doesn't make sense, overpressure breaking the seal isn't a problem as it would be like any positive pressure mask thus letting gas out from the seal but nothing back in. It's how industrial/hazmat/firefighting masks work...always positive pressure to keep contaminates out if seal isn't perfect. So it seems like worst case with overpressure of 5 lpm excess (which isn't a lot anyway) would just blow out from the seal if needed. But again...looking for things I am missing.

 

[kerolox]

Now that I think about it, and correct me if it doesn't make sense, overpressure breaking the seal isn't a problem as it would be like any positive pressure mask thus letting gas out from the seal but nothing back in.

Agreed, I don't think overpressure is a problem

I've been thinking about that. Normal breathing volume per minute is 8-10 liters for an adult. Inert gas guides say use 15 liters per min to keep a bag full enough if going that route.

But we don't consume air at a constant flow rate and that 8-10 l/m has to go both in and back out, Googling it a bit I think what you are looking for is not the amount of air consumed per minute but what is called peak inspiratory flow rate, from what I can find out this is typically about 60l/m. Without an air reservoir any flow rate below that will result in breathing in feeling constrained,

 

[oopswronglife]

For this to work the entire snorkel tube has to be for intake of air (o2 or N2) . Then there are exhale valves on the bottom of the mask to breathe out co2.

That doesn't seem right to me. It seems you just have to put the nitrogen tube in the inflow tube and make sure the outflow tubes are not obstructed. Most I have seen have all tubes in the snorkel. I've not seen one with outflow valves in the face mask part like you show.

But we don't consume air at a constant flow rate and that 8-10 l/m has to go both in and back out, Googling it a bit I think what you are looking for is not the amount of air consumed per minute but what is called peak inspiratory flow rate, from what I can find out this is typically about 60l/m. Without an air reservoir any flow rate below that will result in breathing in feeling constrained,

That doesn't sound right to me because when breathing from a Scuba tank you aren't breathing 60lpm. 10-15 seems the normal recorded volumes for divers. 60lpm is a LOT of movement.

 

[oopswronglife]

That's a new 2020 design . Much better. I ordered one.

I don't know who it was and need to read back...but someone posted somewhere about using a half mask in the same way...industrial respirator style. I have one of those and maybe its less complicated. Would just need to seal one sides filter/inlet and secure gas tubing to the other, then exhalation of CO2 would go through the outflow valve or the sides. Just lacking confidence now.

 

[kerolox]

That doesn't sound right to me because when breathing from a Scuba tank you aren't breathing 60lpm. 10-15 seems the normal recorded volumes for divers. 60lpm is a LOT of movement.

It's the difference between the average and the peak airflow. See this ventilator display for example, the flow rate peaks at about 60lpm for short periods even though the average air consumption is much less.

 

[oopswronglife]

@kerolox if that is an issue I don't understand how even an exit bag would work. People are using 15lpm regulators...MAYBE 20lpm in some cases. The bag would collapse or air from outside might be sucked in if 3-4x the demand was required....yet exit bags and gas have worked for people. I was just trying to avoid the drawbacks of a plastic bag.

@peacefullpainless I understand you about problems and time. Life is exhausting. Which of the two setups do you find more reliable/better? What is the brand of both masks? I have a 3m hald mask respirator with filter sides so it's not a single hose like yours, but theoretically it could still function the same if the inlet filter holes were sealed.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

@kerolox if that is an issue I don't understand how even an exit bag would work. People are using 15lpm regulators...MAYBE 20lpm in some cases. The bag would collapse or air from outside might be sucked in if 3-4x the demand was required....yet exit bags and gas have worked for people. I was just trying to avoid the drawbacks of a plastic bag.

@peacefullpainless I understand you about problems and time. Life is exhausting. Which of the two setups do you find more reliable/better? What is the brand of both masks? I have a 3m hald mask respirator with filter sides so it's not a single hose like yours, but theoretically it could still function the same if the inlet filter holes were sealed.

It seems to me i could make both work. In the prelimanary stages of testing it's too soon for me to say which one is better.
This is the half mask respirator. I could probably PM you some other time or if you have a question i would answer in Pm.. I think i'll delete those previous posts. Just wanted to show you an idea about how the setup goes. I'll probably delete this post too and could maybe put it in PM as we aren't supposed to put out sources in the public forum:

Half Mask Supplied Air Respirator - Allegro Industries

Half Mask Supplied Air Respirator offers low pressure, continuous flow protection. It's durable and easy to use with OBAC quick connect. NIOSH approved.

www.allegrosafety.com

Amazon product ASIN B00E4ZJI1E

 

[kerolox]

@kerolox if that is an issue I don't understand how even an exit bag would work. People are using 15lpm regulators...MAYBE 20lpm in some cases. The bag would collapse or air from outside might be sucked in if 3-4x the demand was required....yet exit bags and gas have worked for people. I was just trying to avoid the drawbacks of a plastic bag.

It's a bit different for a bag, the bag acts as a big reservoir so in that case you don't care about the peak airflow in and out of your lungs.
Secondly the airflow rate is not about keeping the bag inflated, it can't collapse because everything you inhale you exhale back into the bag. In the case of a bag the airflow rate is set to displace sufficient exhaled air out of the bag so that you don't get a build-up of CO2.