Discussion Freedom: Slave v. Prisoner

[derpyderpins]

Who is more "free"? I asked chatgpt:

Who would be more "free" on a daily basis: a slave who, after completing his daily chores may spend his time how he pleases with no restrictions OR a prisoner whose day is spent in a cell but has no chores or responsibilities? Please analyze and explain your answer, including analysis on what "freedom" means.

The response:

The concept of "freedom" can be analyzed from various philosophical, psychological, and practical perspectives. To address who would be more "free" between a slave with leisure time and a prisoner with no chores, let's break down the analysis into several aspects:

### 1. **Physical Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Movement:** The slave can move around after completing chores, potentially within a larger physical area.
- **Activities:** The slave can engage in various activities of their choosing during free time.

**Prisoner:**
- **Movement:** The prisoner is confined to a cell, severely restricting physical movement.
- **Activities:** The prisoner's activities are limited to what is available within the cell (reading, exercising, etc.).

### 2. **Mental Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Autonomy:** The slave has some degree of autonomy in choosing how to spend free time, which can provide a sense of personal agency.
- **Stress:** The slave might experience stress related to the possibility of punishment or the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Autonomy:** The prisoner has very limited autonomy due to constant confinement, which can lead to a sense of powerlessness.
- **Stress:** The prisoner might experience stress from isolation and lack of activities, but without the immediate pressure of chores.

### 3. **Social Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Interaction:** The slave might interact with other people during free time, which can enhance social bonds and psychological well-being.
- **Community:** The slave may have a sense of belonging within a community of other slaves or free individuals.

**Prisoner:**
- **Interaction:** The prisoner's social interactions are restricted, often limited to other prisoners or occasional visitors.
- **Isolation:** The prisoner may experience significant social isolation, which can be detrimental to mental health.

### 4. **Freedom of Choice**

**Slave:**
- **Choices:** The slave can make choices about how to spend leisure time, offering a sense of control over part of their life.
- **Limitations:** The choices are still limited by the context of slavery and the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Choices:** The prisoner has very few choices about daily activities, primarily due to confinement.
- **Limitations:** The prisoner's options are extremely limited by the environment of the cell.

### 5. **Philosophical Perspective**

Freedom, in a broader philosophical sense, can be interpreted through different lenses:

- **Positive Freedom:** The ability to act upon one's free will and pursue one's own goals. The slave, with free time, might experience more positive freedom in terms of pursuing personal interests.
- **Negative Freedom:** The absence of external constraints. Both the slave and the prisoner lack negative freedom in significant ways, but the prisoner's constraints are more absolute.

### Conclusion

Considering these aspects, **the slave who has completed chores and may spend time as they please would generally be considered more "free" on a daily basis** compared to the prisoner. This conclusion is based on the following points:

- **Physical Movement:** The slave has more freedom of movement.
- **Autonomy and Choice:** The slave can make choices about how to spend their free time, offering a sense of control.
- **Social Interaction:** The slave has greater opportunities for social interaction and community.

While neither situation represents true freedom in a holistic sense, the relative freedom to choose activities and interact with others after completing chores gives the slave more practical and psychological freedom compared to the prisoner confined to a cell.

I would tend to agree that the slave is more free than the prisoner, but I would love to hear further thoughts and discussion.

 

[lamargue]

aha, i think i get the motivation behind this post. i think that the slave at least has structure of habit; he doesn't suffer ennui because he is constantly occupied, and thus can use his free-time in a more meaningful way, which probably isn't the case for a lot of people. but i think it's obvious that the prisoner has less freedom. he can use his time freely, but that doesn't entail that he can freely use his time: he has a limited amount of power in that situation and probably doesn't have access to a lot of entertainment. the slave might use his free-time to develop more efficient methods of working. the prisoner has no structure of habit, and as such holds far less power
also, a slave might have more bargaining power. he is committed to labor, but efficient labor will yield rewards, since a slave-owner would want to promote minimal resistance to the conditions of slavery. a slave that works hard can obtain a great number of things: the prisoner in this scenario has no bargaining power, since he has no structure of habit and thus provides no utility, assuming that he's strictly confined to his cell

 

[derpyderpins]

aha, i think i get the motivation behind this post.

Subtlety is not my strong suit (when I specifically don't want it to be.) My hands are tied from responding in some circumstances, even if my lifestyle is slandered, so I thought making my own thread would be better than causing issues.

i think that the slave at least has structure of habit; he doesn't suffer ennui because he is constantly occupied, and thus can use his free-time in a more meaningful way, which probably isn't the case for a lot of people. but i think it's obvious that the prisoner has less freedom. he can use his time freely, but that doesn't entail that he can freely use his time: he has a limited amount of power in that situation and probably doesn't have access to a lot of entertainment. the slave might use his free-time to develop more efficient methods of working. the prisoner has no structure of habit, and as such holds far less power
also, a slave might have more bargaining power. he is committed to labor, but efficient labor will yield rewards, since a slave-owner would want to promote minimal resistance to the conditions of slavery. a slave that works hard can obtain a great number of things: the prisoner in this scenario has no bargaining power, since he has no structure of habit and thus provides no utility, assuming that he's strictly confined to his cell

I think this is all good insight. Bargaining power is big. Another factor not accounted for in the hypothetical is that the slave may accumulate resources and see progress in his comforts and lifestyle, but thinking about that somewhat breaks the metaphor, as true slaves did not get wages or control their homes.

You did make me think, though. The prisoner wouldn't be confined to the cell, necessarily, right? I mean, prisoners are given privileges like exercise time. Of course, those privileges are in the hands of the Warden, who often won't treat them well or be fair. I expanded the hypo:

What if the prisoner does have access to things outside the cell, he simply has to beg the warden for permission and purchasing power? The warden will often oblige, but the fulfillment of requests will come with humiliation rituals such as degradation of the prisoner and taking of the prisoner's few cherished items. The warden could choose to cut the prisoner off from everything at any time, including food and water.

Response:

Adding the dimension of the prisoner having access to things outside the cell contingent on begging and enduring humiliation rituals complicates the analysis. Here's how this additional context impacts the comparative freedom of the slave and the prisoner:

### 1. **Physical Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Movement:** Remains largely the same, with freedom of movement after chores within a certain area.
- **Activities:** Remains largely the same, with the ability to choose activities during free time.

**Prisoner:**
- **Movement:** Potentially improved if the prisoner can leave the cell with permission.
- **Activities:** Potentially expanded if the prisoner can engage in activities outside the cell, but only with the warden's consent.

### 2. **Mental Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Autonomy:** Maintains some autonomy during free time.
- **Stress:** Continues to face stress from the potential for punishment and the need to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Autonomy:** Severely compromised by the need to beg and endure humiliation rituals.
- **Stress:** Likely higher due to the constant threat of humiliation, loss of cherished items, and potential deprivation of basic needs.

### 3. **Social Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Interaction:** Can interact relatively freely during leisure time.
- **Community:** Potential for social bonds and community engagement remains the same.

**Prisoner:**
- **Interaction:** Could be improved if allowed outside interactions, but these are contingent on the warden's permission and come with humiliating conditions.
- **Isolation:** Continues to face isolation, and social interactions are further compromised by the nature of the humiliation rituals.

### 4. **Freedom of Choice**

**Slave:**
- **Choices:** Maintains the ability to choose activities during free time.
- **Limitations:** Still constrained by the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Choices:** Expanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly.
- **Limitations:** The prisoner's options remain heavily dependent on the warden's whims, adding a layer of unpredictability and powerlessness.

### 5. **Philosophical Perspective**

- **Positive Freedom:** The prisoner's potential positive freedom (ability to act on will) is heavily compromised by the conditions placed on accessing outside resources and activities.
- **Negative Freedom:** The prisoner faces additional constraints due to the need to endure humiliation rituals and the constant threat of being cut off from essentials.

### Conclusion

Given these additional factors, the balance of freedom still tips in favor of the **slave**, but with an even clearer margin:

- **Physical Movement and Activities:** While the prisoner may have more potential access to physical movement and activities, the conditions under which these are granted make them psychologically and emotionally costly.
- **Autonomy and Choice:** The slave maintains more genuine autonomy and freedom of choice within their limited scope, whereas the prisoner's autonomy is severely compromised by the warden's power dynamics.
- **Mental and Social Freedom:** The constant threat of humiliation, deprivation, and psychological manipulation faced by the prisoner adds a significant burden, making the slave's relatively more stable and predictable situation preferable.

Overall, the **slave who has completed chores remains more "free"** on a daily basis than the prisoner, even with the prisoner's potential for accessing things outside the cell. The slave's relative consistency and autonomy in leisure time, without the added burden of psychological degradation, offer a more substantial form of practical and mental freedom.

I didn't think it would move the scale, but I understand the argument that increased opportunities at the whims of the warden results in even less freedom. Particularly convincing, imo, is that the prisoner's "[e]xpanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly." The psychological toll of relying on another would add up greatly, because the threat of losing everything hangs above like Damocles' sword.

 

[lamargue]

Subtlety is not my strong suit (when I specifically don't want it to be.) My hands are tied from responding in some circumstances, even if my lifestyle is slandered, so I thought making my own thread would be better than causing issues.


I think this is all good insight. Bargaining power is big. Another factor not accounted for in the hypothetical is that the slave may accumulate resources and see progress in his comforts and lifestyle, but thinking about that somewhat breaks the metaphor, as true slaves did not get wages or control their homes.

You did make me think, though. The prisoner wouldn't be confined to the cell, necessarily, right? I mean, prisoners are given privileges like exercise time. Of course, those privileges are in the hands of the Warden, who often won't treat them well or be fair. I expanded the hypo:


Response:


I didn't think it would move the scale, but I understand the argument that increased opportunities at the whims of the warden results in even less freedom. Particularly convincing, imo, is that the prisoner's "[e]xpanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly." The psychological toll of relying on another would add up greatly, because the threat of losing everything hangs above like Damocles' sword.

curious as to how you would apply this information to so-called questions of 'wageslavery.' would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it

 

[derpyderpins]

curious as to how you would apply this information to so-called questions of 'wageslavery.' would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it

Oh, goodness, now that you mention it I guess it could be applicable in that context! Very interesting. I can't think of a conclusion to draw, though.