Venting Extreme confusion

[SpacexJunkie]

I guess i'm just trying to understand some people here, specifically the people who believe that life is suffering and think it's inherently wrong, do they also believe that your actions don't affect you in the afterlife, do they believe in the afterlife even? I guess my question is, if one feels this way, how do they justify things like blaming politicians and lawmakers for banning sites such as this with legislation, how can you believe that these politicians and lawmakers are inherently wrong and imposing upon your "free will" if they were also born into this unfair world, and does anyone believe they have contributed to the depression or suicidal thoughts of these politicians and lawmakers by naming them and trying to shun them the same way. I guess my question is, do the two wrongs make a right in this kind of scenario?

 

[letmejoindeath]

I guess i'm just trying to understand some people here, specifically the people who believe that life is suffering and think it's inherently wrong, do they also believe that your actions don't affect you in the afterlife, do they believe in the afterlife even? I guess my question is, if one feels this way, how do they justify things like blaming politicians and lawmakers for banning sites such as this with legislation, how can you believe that these politicians and lawmakers are inherently wrong and imposing upon your "free will" if they were also born into this unfair world, and does anyone believe they have contributed to the depression or suicidal thoughts of these politicians and lawmakers by naming them and trying to shun them the same way. I guess my question is, do the two wrongs make a right in this kind of scenario?

I just don't care anymore. The only fair world is one I am dead in. Then it won't matter.

 

[SovietSuicide]

I kinda realized life was suffering when I was about 7 years old.

The rest I've been trying to figure out all my life.

 

[UtopianSoliloquies]

To answer your first question, judging by this poll which was posted a while back, no. A majority of SaSu members do not believe in an afterlife.

As for your question regarding the policymakers who try to ban this site in their respective jurisdictions, you seem to be conflating the notion that life is inherently bad with the idea that life has no meaning of any sort. (I will be using the words "bad," "negative moral value," and "negative utility" interchangeably in this post). I obviously can't speak for everyone, and I do not even much agree with this outlook on life, but the logic there does nonetheless make sense if you think life is inherently of negative moral value. Insofar as life is of negative moral value, the act of suicide, that is to say, the negation of life which is an inherently bad thing, is good because it negates something negative. Therefore, to impede the individual's ability to access this site along with other similar suicide resources via political action is immoral because it prevents the morally positive action of suicide.

As for whether people might consider the effect their speech has on politicians whom they speak out against, I would imagine most people do not care. The unprovoked harm a politician does to a group of people through legislation that targets said group's liberty cannot be equated with the individual theoretical harm done to the politician as retaliation against such action. Neither in ethics nor in magnitude are they comparable.

 

[haibane]

Tbh i do believe that a lot of what happened to me isnt cause of me. My family have always Been really toxic and so all my life can be resume by suffering. Also, no i don't believe in any kind of after life. Finally, its not about if any other people suffer too or even if they suffer more than me or anyone else. Everyone is different and we should have the right to decide when we want to die as we didn't had the choice to be born or not in the first place

 

[SpacexJunkie]

Tbh i do believe that a lot of what happened to me isnt cause of me. My family have always Been really toxic and so all my life can be resume by suffering. Also, no i don't believe in any kind of after life. Finally, its not about if any other people suffer too or even if they suffer more than me or anyone else. Everyone is different and we should have the right to decide when we want to die as we didn't had the choice to be born or not in the first place

I agree that people should be able to make the choice, but I do not think that suicide is inherently a good thing, I don't quite understand the philosophy that it will end your suffering on earth. I guess I am just optimistic thinking that life can get better for everyone, although I do understand some people have really bad illnesses and old age/mental problems that make life almost unbearable. I do agree with the context of suicide ending physical pain, but I do believe any amount of trauma can be overcome which is where i fall, I think suicide should be an option for people like burn victims, or people who can't walk or do anything really but speak for themselves, just like your family has a right to cut off life support, I think you should be able to make that choice, but for emotional trauma and just wanting to die but having nothing physical to back it up it where I think it can cross some lines especially when minors are involved.

While I don't believe in the afterlife, I do not oppose the idea, actually i very much hope it is real and exists, however other things like reincarnation etc. are the scary ones for me, I would definitely not get reincarnated if I had a choice. unless obviously it was to enter heaven in some way, but reincarnation on this earth fuck that. so I can understand why some people feel these ways but it does seem to be a grey area.

To answer your first question, judging by this poll which was posted a while back, no. A majority of SaSu members do not believe in an afterlife.

As for your question regarding the policymakers who try to ban this site in their respective jurisdictions, you seem to be conflating the notion that life is inherently bad with the idea that life has no meaning of any sort. (I will be using the words "bad," "negative moral value," and "negative utility" interchangeably in this post). I obviously can't speak for everyone, and I do not even much agree with this outlook on life, but the logic there does nonetheless make sense if you think life is inherently of negative moral value. Insofar as life is of negative moral value, the act of suicide, that is to say, the negation of life which is an inherently bad thing, is good because it negates something negative. Therefore, to impede the individual's ability to access this site along with other similar suicide resources via political action is immoral because it prevents the morally positive action of suicide.

As for whether people might consider the effect their speech has on politicians whom they speak out against, I would imagine most people do not care. The unprovoked harm a politician does to a group of people through legislation that targets said group's liberty cannot be equated with the individual theoretical harm done to the politician as retaliation against such action. Neither in ethics nor in magnitude are they comparable.

So then by these standards, is there any suicides that these people would deem morally unnaceptable? Do they believe that there are people who commit suicide out of selfish reasons or do they think the action of suicide is always morally acceptable no matter the circumstance because they feel suicide negates the bad aspects of life to begin with?

I kinda realized life was suffering when I was about 7 years old.

The rest I've been trying to figure out all my life.

I agree there can be suffering in life, but I don't think all walks of life have to struggle or suffer, obviously suffering can be defined and experienced differently by everyone, but I genuinely think some people find happiness and peace in this life.

I am sorry to hear that you feel this way though and if you ever need someone to talk to you can message me anytime.

I just don't care anymore. The only fair world is one I am dead in. Then it won't matter.

why do you feel this way if you don't mind me asking, if it's too personal you can message me if you want, but I am sure other people see things differently and would love to have you around, I for one will be glad to talk to you in messages if you would like, good luck to you and hope you find some meaning and purpose for your life.

 

[haibane]

I agree that people should be able to make the choice, but I do not think that suicide is inherently a good thing, I don't quite understand the philosophy that it will end your suffering on earth. I guess I am just optimistic thinking that life can get better for everyone, although I do understand some people have really bad illnesses and old age/mental problems that make life almost unbearable. I do agree with the context of suicide ending physical pain, but I do believe any amount of trauma can be overcome which is where i fall, I think suicide should be an option for people like burn victims, or people who can't walk or do anything really but speak for themselves, just like your family has a right to cut off life support, I think you should be able to make that choice, but for emotional trauma and just wanting to die but having nothing physical to back it up it where I think it can cross some lines especially when minors are involved.

While I don't believe in the afterlife, I do not oppose the idea, actually i very much hope it is real and exists, however other things like reincarnation etc. are the scary ones for me, I would definitely not get reincarnated if I had a choice. unless obviously it was to enter heaven in some way, but reincarnation on this earth fuck that. so I can understand why some people feel these ways but it does seem to be a grey area.

So then by these standards, is there any suicides that these people would deem morally unnaceptable? Do they believe that there are people who commit suicide out of selfish reasons or do they think the action of suicide is always morally acceptable no matter the circumstance because they feel suicide negates the bad aspects of life to begin with?

I agree there can be suffering in life, but I don't think all walks of life have to struggle or suffer, obviously suffering can be defined and experienced differently by everyone, but I genuinely think some people find happiness and peace in this life.

I am sorry to hear that you feel this way though and if you ever need someone to talk to you can message me anytime.

why do you feel this way if you don't mind me asking, if it's too personal you can message me if you want, but I am sure other people see things differently and would love to have you around, I for one will be glad to talk to you in messages if you would like, good luck to you and hope you find some meaning and purpose for your life.

Everyone have his reason why he want to die ig. Personally i have a mental illness that prevent me to live peacefully. And the harsh reality is that generally life never get better. Its a lie. So its completely understandable that people want to reach peace asap.

 

[SpacexJunkie]

Everyone have his reason why he want to die ig. Personally i have a mental illness that prevent me to live peacefully. And the harsh reality is that generally life never get better. Its a lie. So its completely understandable that people want to reach peace asap.

So you genuinely believe there is nothing on earth you can attain that could outweigh the negatives of life, even if they seem impossible for your current circumstances? I'll give you an example, have you ever played a game, like a video game or card game and had been losing at one point, but then the luck of the draw gives you a second chance and you come out on top an win? Do you think there is nothing in life that can give you peace and joy the same way you could feel this way about death?

 

[FuneralCry]

I very strongly believe that once we die we simply cease existing and then we will finally be at peace as we will be permanently free from the ultimate cause of all suffering and harm in the first place. I could never believe in an afterlife, anything like that is fictional to me and it disgusts me how those pro-life people mentioned in the orginal post see meaningless and worthless suffering to be prolonged at all costs.

I could never see a benefit to this futile and torturous process of slowly decaying from age, trying to make suicide as purposely difficult as possible will always be such a cruel and harmful thing to do. One cannot suffer from the absence of existence yet there is no limit as to how much one can be tormented as long as they exist. I see all suffering as undesirable.

 

[R_N]

No. Not everyone can be happy or "get better". That is very sheltered and naive way of thinking. World is full of beings in terrible situations and that won't change because your situation is currently different. That is projecting and unrealistic.

Nature is cruel and our bodies are limited. Recipe for disaster. Countless beings are being devoured as we speak, people are in pain, dying, suffering of various illnesses. Open your eyes.

 

[real human being]

So you genuinely believe there is nothing on earth you can attain that could outweigh the negatives of life, even if they seem impossible for your current circumstances? I'll give you an example, have you ever played a game, like a video game or card game and had been losing at one point, but then the luck of the draw gives you a second chance and you come out on top an win? Do you think there is nothing in life that can give you peace and joy the same way you could feel this way about death?

Is it really relevant whether it is possible to imagine a situation where life becomes worth living? If I won a million dollars and didn't have to work as a result it might make me less miserable but I wouldn't base my decision to live or to die based on something so far fetched regardless. There's the realm of what's possible and there's the realm of what's reasonable to expect.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I believe there is no afterlife.
Also, I have had a hellish existence. Abused as a child, clinically depressed since age 7, and a multitude of other undeserved nastiness happen to me for no good reason.
I despise this world and want nothing from it.
It's called existential crisis.
And fuck all politicians and do-gooders who want to close this site down.

 

[SketchedOut]

this might've been said here already, but i personally believe that life on its own doesn't have any value. not a positive one, nor a negative one. what gives life its value are the circumstances the life is lived in. if you have a loving family, don't struggle with your responsibilities, you're financially stable, etc. then the value of those things affect the value of your life and give it a positive value. but if you're born into a financially unstable, emotionally abusive family with divorced parents that keep yelling at each other for the dumbest of reasons, tons of mental illness diagnoses, maybe even a chronic physical illness, and you are just absolutely fucking exhausted from everything that people keep throwing at you, then all of those things have a negative value which projects onto your life. and you can try to make your life better. i recently ran away from my parents, stopped going to school entirely and i'm now living with my girlfriend and looking for a job in hopes of turning my life around and making it worth living, but at one point or another there might come a time when you decide that you're just too tired and exhausted to keep trying and failing and so just pussy out and kill yourself.

it's not that suicide inherently has a positive value, it's just that it can put an end to something that might have a negative value, and in those cases, since it's negating something negative, that would make it positive.

with that said, and i hope this won't make me sound like a pro-lifer, i just see this as a fair argument, if you think that you can turn your life around to not have any value, then you can go further, make your life genuinely enjoyable and thus make it have positive value. with suicide, you're basically just accepting the fact that your life was pointless, and you get nothing out of it. but again, in some cases, turning your life around to the point where you're able to actually enjoy it again can be really fucking hard and insanely fucking exhausting, and in some cases just straight up impossible. so, when you're sitting on the ledge and thinking about jumping off, genuinely take a second to ask yourself "is there anything i could do to enjoy my life again? am i willing to put the hard work and effort into it to achieve that? and do i think that i'll be able to spend enough time here after putting all of the effort into turning my life around for it to be worth it in the end?" and if the answer is no, then enjoy the bus ride i guess...


also on the topic of all the politicians that are trying to ban this site, i firmly believe that people should have the right to choose when they go. and this site feels like one of the few places where people actually help you figure out how to exercise that right. the people who want to ban this site are probably just insanely ignorant and have never had any big hurdles in their life. it feels like they completely forget about things like abuse and trauma, and they don't even try to understand just how severely it can affect someone. i would love to have a conversation with one of them, just to understand their viewpoint better. but right now i feel like it's just them being programmed to think "suicide = bad" and no more thought went into it.

 

[haibane]

So you genuinely believe there is nothing on earth you can attain that could outweigh the negatives of life, even if they seem impossible for your current circumstances? I'll give you an example, have you ever played a game, like a video game or card game and had been losing at one point, but then the luck of the draw gives you a second chance and you come out on top an win? Do you think there is nothing in life that can give you peace and joy the same way you could feel this way about death?

Life is not a game, or then a luck based game where some just cannot win happiness. And no im personally completely persuaded that nothing in life could make my life worth living, except death.

 

[SVEN]

So you genuinely believe there is nothing on earth you can attain that could outweigh the negatives of life, even if they seem impossible for your current circumstances? I'll give you an example, have you ever played a game, like a video game or card game and had been losing at one point, but then the luck of the draw gives you a second chance and you come out on top an win? Do you think there is nothing in life that can give you peace and joy the same way you could feel this way about death?

This is a suicide discussion thread on a Sanctioned Suicide site, if I thought a change in circumstances would remove my earnest desire to ctb I'd be on the Recovery or Off Topic threads.
FFS sod off with the "what will make your life worth living, I'd love to listen to your woes" pro life shite and give us peace.

 

[SpacexJunkie]

I very strongly believe that once we die we simply cease existing and then we will finally be at peace as we will be permanently free from the ultimate cause of all suffering and harm in the first place. I could never believe in an afterlife, anything like that is fictional to me and it disgusts me how those pro-life people mentioned in the orginal post see meaningless and worthless suffering to be prolonged at all costs.

I could never see a benefit to this futile and torturous process of slowly decaying from age, trying to make suicide as purposely difficult as possible will always be such a cruel and harmful thing to do. One cannot suffer from the absence of existence yet there is no limit as to how much one can be tormented as long as they exist. I see all suffering as undesirable.

I guess my real question for philosophies like this, is do you believe that if you were to

cease existing and then we will finally be at peace as we will be permanently free from the ultimate cause of all suffering and harm in the first place.

would that not be your form of heaven? you don't think that you could forever be free while other energies who believe in existence go to a different heaven? Or do you think that everything will end one particular way and nobody gets into any sort of heaven and we just cease to exist?

Is it really relevant whether it is possible to imagine a situation where life becomes worth living? If I won a million dollars and didn't have to work as a result it might make me less miserable but I wouldn't base my decision to live or to die based on something so far fetched regardless. There's the realm of what's possible and there's the realm of what's reasonable to expect.

There were once lot's of things that were not reasonable to expect that came to be. plumbing, piping, heating, cooling, storage devices etc we all figured out with time. if you don't allow yourself the time to atleast view other points, you cannot view something as impossible until it has been tried and tried again and failed. atleast in my eyes, I guess i borderline insanity cause i don't get different results often but I encourage yall to try atleast, the worst thing it could do is make life a tiny bit worse, but thats your philosophy anyways right? life is just generally bad to begin with? So why not try to achieve seemingly unrealistic goals in this hellscape. might aswell were already here.

This is a suicide discussion thread on a Sanctioned Suicide site, if I thought a change in circumstances would remove my earnest desire to ctb I'd be on the Recovery or Off Topic threads.
FFS sod off with the "what will make your life worth living, I'd love to listen to your woes" pro life shite and give us peace.

If you genuinely feel this way about me for just trying to show some positivity to people who don't often recieve it, then you can go ahead and hop into the thousands of forums that offer the help you want my guy, I'm not here to change your mind im only offering new perspectives, it's up to you to reject or accept not up to me to force you to understand where i'm coming from. I also think it's very strange to try to assume why I speak the way I do when you have barely interacted with me or seen my struggles aswell.

this might've been said here already, but i personally believe that life on its own doesn't have any value. not a positive one, nor a negative one. what gives life its value are the circumstances the life is lived in. if you have a loving family, don't struggle with your responsibilities, you're financially stable, etc. then the value of those things affect the value of your life and give it a positive value. but if you're born into a financially unstable, emotionally abusive family with divorced parents that keep yelling at each other for the dumbest of reasons, tons of mental illness diagnoses, maybe even a chronic physical illness, and you are just absolutely fucking exhausted from everything that people keep throwing at you, then all of those things have a negative value which projects onto your life. and you can try to make your life better. i recently ran away from my parents, stopped going to school entirely and i'm now living with my girlfriend and looking for a job in hopes of turning my life around and making it worth living, but at one point or another there might come a time when you decide that you're just too tired and exhausted to keep trying and failing and so just pussy out and kill yourself.

it's not that suicide inherently has a positive value, it's just that it can put an end to something that might have a negative value, and in those cases, since it's negating something negative, that would make it positive.

with that said, and i hope this won't make me sound like a pro-lifer, i just see this as a fair argument, if you think that you can turn your life around to not have any value, then you can go further, make your life genuinely enjoyable and thus make it have positive value. with suicide, you're basically just accepting the fact that your life was pointless, and you get nothing out of it. but again, in some cases, turning your life around to the point where you're able to actually enjoy it again can be really fucking hard and insanely fucking exhausting, and in some cases just straight up impossible. so, when you're sitting on the ledge and thinking about jumping off, genuinely take a second to ask yourself "is there anything i could do to enjoy my life again? am i willing to put the hard work and effort into it to achieve that? and do i think that i'll be able to spend enough time here after putting all of the effort into turning my life around for it to be worth it in the end?" and if the answer is no, then enjoy the bus ride i guess...


also on the topic of all the politicians that are trying to ban this site, i firmly believe that people should have the right to choose when they go. and this site feels like one of the few places where people actually help you figure out how to exercise that right. the people who want to ban this site are probably just insanely ignorant and have never had any big hurdles in their life. it feels like they completely forget about things like abuse and trauma, and they don't even try to understand just how severely it can affect someone. i would love to have a conversation with one of them, just to understand their viewpoint better. but right now i feel like it's just them being programmed to think "suicide = bad" and no more thought went into it.

This is a very well thought out response, I like this one very much, not much for me to disprove, as it's all personal opinion so again i'm just gonna play devils advocate and offer new viewpoints. If life seems to be suffering and such negative connotations, then why not try your best as long as you could possibly live regardless of the suffering, if it's something so many people see as unbearable would it not be a worthy goal to overcome these fears and succeed in ways you never thought you possibly could? Or do you think theres a certain point some people reach where there is no going back and thats final?

 

[Meditation guide]

I encourage yall to try atleast, the worst thing it could do is make life a tiny bit worse

why not try your best as long as you could possibly live regardless of the suffering,

how do they justify things like blaming politicians and lawmakers for banning sites such as this with legislation, how can you believe that these politicians and lawmakers are inherently wrong

Pro lifer now gone.