passer-by

passer-by

Home is elsewhere
Oct 7, 2024
13
Don't you think there's something fishy about it? Some of them go into gruesome details of what is going to be happening to you while you're damned in hell for eternity. Some are putting it on a same level as murder. It doesn't really seem as a fair comparison to me.

I think I read Buddhism doesn't judge it too harshly as long as you don't shed a blood, therefore acts as VSED or hanging were allowed for very sick and old. But the different schools' views differ even there.

Ultimately it looks we could unite all of the known religions on this unanimously.

Which makes perfect sense, if their sole purpose is to succumb people to their authority and keep the show going.

That's just my opinion.

I'm naturally scared of the unknown, as no-one who succeded has come back to tell the story and even NDE experiences are very unreliable, since those might be subjected to the individual's own mind filters and beliefs.

I just have a strong inner feeling it's going to be okay and I wish to stick to that 🙂

What are your thoughts on this?
 
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sharpiemarker

sharpiemarker

Member
Sep 22, 2024
38
I think it stems from an instinct to preserve the "herd" of our own, hence make it a unforgivable thing to kill yourself?
 
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S

SVEN

Enlightened
Apr 3, 2023
1,440
I guess (I'm no expert on religion) that a religion or faith which didn't envisage an afterlife of some sort would just be a philosophy. So they all emphasize living well in the present life. And most humans respond to a stick and carrot approach. The stick for religions is if you do bad things (define bad as you wish) in this life you'll get punished in the next; the carrot is if you do good stuff in this life you'll get your reward in the next.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,068
Ehh, I can't speak for other religions than Christianity and ancient Judaism, but the texts of the Old and New Testaments are quite silent on the topic. In fact the Old Testament mentions Saul committing seppuku because he would else face torture and shame before losing the war. It also mentions Samson committing suicide and taking down his enemies at the same time. Both Samson and Saul are described as being, albeit problematic, but saints who earned resurrection. The most you get in the New Testament is abstaining from dying early being profitable as a way to be able to do more good for others. Otherwise, Paul and other apostles were glad to die early and be with the Lord. The texts definitely say nothing about suicide earning a specially harsh afterlife. Arthur Schopenhauer also wondered why suicide is so strongly and explicitly condemned by modern churches when their Bible texts are so silent about it. Also, by far most atheists believe suicide to be wrong or tragic, some even accepting that forcibly hospitalizing suicidal people is okay, like the law says, and yet they certainly are not being against suicide because they want to "control the herd". So it's more complex than what you said.
 
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passer-by

passer-by

Home is elsewhere
Oct 7, 2024
13
I think it stems from an instinct to preserve the "herd" of our own, hence make it a unforgivable thing to kill yourself?
Yeah the "herd" theory makes a lot of sense to me, I have only recently stumbled upon that. Hell even my first instinct to someone expressing suicidal thoughts is to try to change their mind. At this point is more of just an empathy though, I can feel their despair and I know that ctb is simply their last resort just as mine is. Getting more loose on that front now. I just wish they do what's best for them now, putting their free will to use.
 
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Gustav Hartmann

Gustav Hartmann

Wizard
Aug 28, 2021
607
The owners of slaves and serfs invented such religious rules in order to protect their proprety. Natural peoples, hunters and gathers had quite different practices. If someone becomes a burden to the comunity because he was ill or old he was expected to kill himself. I guess sometimes he was forced a little.

My avatar, shows Ixtab the Maya goddess of suicide by hanging. Playing the role of a psychopomp, she would accompany such suicides to heaven.
 
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pollux

pollux

Knight of Infinite Resignation
May 24, 2024
164
I imagine that religions with good afterlives would in general condemn suicide; they wouldn't get very far if everyone that adhered to their faith killed themselves...
 
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passer-by

passer-by

Home is elsewhere
Oct 7, 2024
13
The owners of slaves and serfs invented such religious rules in order to protect their proprety. Natural peoples, hunters and gathers had quite different practices. If someone becomes a burden to the comunity because he was ill or old he was expected to kill himself. I guess sometimes he was forced a little.

My avatar, shows Ixtab the Maya goddess of suicide by hanging. Playing the role of a psychopomp, she would accompany such suicides to heaven.
Damn thank you, gonna read on Ixtab more. This made me more hopeful. As much as I try to rely on my own instincts, it is still a scary thought for me, being punished for my ultimate choice.
Yeah the Natural people's approach is another extreme I'd say, but it makes sense regarding the natural selection law. I just feel we're more than this. In both regards.
 
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ijustwishtodie

ijustwishtodie

death will be my ultimate bliss
Oct 29, 2023
4,365
Religion is made by humans and most humans condemn suicide hence the religions will condemn suicide as well
 
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P

Privateer2368

Member
Aug 18, 2024
22
Don't you think there's something fishy about it? Some of them go into gruesome details of what is going to be happening to you while you're damned in hell for eternity. Some are putting it on a same level as murder. It doesn't really seem as a fair comparison to me.

I think I read Buddhism doesn't judge it too harshly as long as you don't shed a blood, therefore acts as VSED or hanging were allowed for very sick and old. But the different schools' views differ even there.

Ultimately it looks we could unite all of the known religions on this unanimously.

Which makes perfect sense, if their sole purpose is to succumb people to their authority and keep the show going.

That's just my opinion.

I'm naturally scared of the unknown, as no-one who succeded has come back to tell the story and even NDE experiences are very unreliable, since those might be subjected to the individual's own mind filters and beliefs.

I just have a strong inner feeling it's going to be okay and I wish to stick to that 🙂

What are your thoughts on this?
I'm guessing your knowledge of religions is primarily limited to the Abrahamic ones?

Yeah, they're a very bad sample by which to judge all religions.

Not all religions are particularly anti-suicide. Not all religions have any overall authority or power structure.
 
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C

CantDoIt

Wizard
Jul 18, 2024
656
In Christianity, I heard that suicides were punished in the afterlife just as sort of a tool for the rich. Essentially, peasants had to toil the fields but would be rewarded in heaven. If they killed themselves early to get to heaven, there would be no one to toil the fields.
 
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Sunghoon

Sunghoon

#1 Wasted sperm
Jul 18, 2024
26
I hate religion I wish it never existed or I wish my family didn't have a religion Bc now I'm forced to follow their silly beliefs. When I attempted my dad said I would've went to hell and that was the only thing they were worried about Bc apparently God would judge my parents if I killed myself. Fuck religion
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,068
In Christianity, I heard that suicides were punished in the afterlife just as sort of a tool for the rich. Essentially, peasants had to toil the fields but would be rewarded in heaven. If they killed themselves early to get to heaven, there would be no one to toil the fields.
Yeah, it's not even in the biblical texts themselves, certainly feudalism is not taught by scripture and the word peasant never appears. The church and priests only spoke Latin to keep folks in darkness and the first Bible translations in local languages were condemned and the translators burned at the stake. Feudalism ended when people could hear the Bible read in their own languages.
I hate religion I wish it never existed or I wish my family didn't have a religion Bc now I'm forced to follow their silly beliefs. When I attempted my dad said I would've went to hell and that was the only thing they were worried about Bc apparently God would judge my parents if I killed myself. Fuck religion
My parents are not religious even though I am, and yet they still guilt trip me into not kms.
 
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daley

daley

Student
May 11, 2024
125
I recall reading there were early christian sects where suicide was frequent and viewed positively.
(Perhaps as a way to get more quickly into heaven),
 
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landslide2

landslide2

Arcanist
May 6, 2024
479
Religion tells us to endure the suffering, because you will be rewarded in the afterlife. Giving people a coping mechanism.
In a way religion thrives on suffering, adding and keeping more followers who have no way of obtaining equity, fairness, justice
or healing from physical/mental illnesses in this life.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
8,991
If there are even Gods, how can we be sure that the religious texts we read now best represent their wishes? For example, the Christian gospels were written 40 to 65 years after Christ died. I imagine a lot could be altered, added and subtracted in that time.

Also bear in mind the type of people that most likely created the foundations for a lot of orthodox religions. They could read and write so presumably- they were of the ruling classes. They obviously don't want their peasant labour force killing themselves en masse. Hell's a good deterrent.

Sometimes I wonder. Like- it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that someone who wants to be devout. Is a faithful servant of whatever faith but- is struggling terribly in life. Wants it to end. Prays to God for it to end but it doesn't. What if they ask God directly? Will you be pissed if I do it myself? The religious texts can be a bit hazy. Like others have mentioned, suicide doesn't seem to be outright condemned in the bible. Why doesn't God answer them? If God loves us so much- why wouldn't they try to intervene in an action that could send our soul to hell? Why has it all got to be so cryptic? I'm hoping- because there is no God. Surely, that's prefarable to one who toys with you, ignores you, condemns you.
 
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Demian

Demian

Student
Mar 25, 2024
168
Samson asked God for the strength to push over the pillars and thus die. So Samson committed suicide, and he is on the list of heroes of the faith in the Bible.

I'm not encouraging suicide. Samson's case was too critical. His enemies pierced his two eyes, chained him up and mocked him every day.
 
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passer-by

passer-by

Home is elsewhere
Oct 7, 2024
13
If there are even Gods, how can we be sure that the religious texts we read now best represent their wishes? For example, the Christian gospels were written 40 to 65 years after Christ died. I imagine a lot could be altered, added and subtracted in that time.

Also bear in mind the type of people that most likely created the foundations for a lot of orthodox religions. They could read and write so presumably- they were of the ruling classes. They obviously don't want their peasant labour force killing themselves en masse. Hell's a good deterrent.

Sometimes I wonder. Like- it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that someone who wants to be devout. Is a faithful servant of whatever faith but- is struggling terribly in life. Wants it to end. Prays to God for it to end but it doesn't. What if they ask God directly? Will you be pissed if I do it myself? The religious texts can be a bit hazy. Like others have mentioned, suicide doesn't seem to be outright condemned in the bible. Why doesn't God answer them? If God loves us so much- why wouldn't they try to intervene in an action that could send our soul to hell? Why has it all got to be so cryptic? I'm hoping- because there is no God. Surely, that's prefarable to one who toys with you, ignores you, condemns you.
This is why Gnosticism makes the most of sense to me. According to them, the creator of this world is a blood-thirsty, twisted, lower diety, who requires the suffering and pain of every living creature. So any prayers to end it would fall deaf on his ears. Even if you take humans out of the equation, just look at the animal kingdom, how cruel is their entire existance, they live their lives in a constant fear and dread.

In 'Gospel of Judas' by Bart D. Ehrman, Judas is actually the "protagonist", the only one of all the disciples who understood his teachings and did what was necessary and what Jesus actually asked of him, to not only free him of the flesh prison, but to mainly show others they should not be afraid, as our soul is eternal and the material world trapped us here, making us believe it's all there is.

I would need to do more research on this, but I've heard that the reason Mayan culture had to have their bloody humans sacrifices was so "the world wouldn't end". Playing more to Gnostic's idea that the god of this world is not who we think he is and the suffering is a principle of the matter itself, which will never subside, as the "matter itself is wrong". But it will inevitably come to an end. The only thing that will survive are the "sparks", our spirits, to whom this place was never a home to begin with. And so the reason so many of us feel like strangers to this world is because WE ARE.
 
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T

ThisIsMe1357

Student
May 20, 2024
123
World religions condemn many things rightfully and many things wrongfully. Examples of the reasonable ones include murder or stealing and examples of the stupid ideas include bashing atheism or criticizing what people do in their bedrooms.

And why is that? It is only like this because people who originally founded a specific religion wanted those ideas to be included in there based on their personal beliefs and morals at the time and because people who agreed with those ideas accepted them and started following them. And they might have meant well at the time, but we live in modern times and understand certain topics much better now.

Just because a religious doctrine claims something does not automatically make it true. Also, murder and stealing are wrong based on plenty of other reasons and arguments, they are not wrong solely because religions claim they are. I personally judge everything based on good arguments and do not pay attention to how religions deal with it.
 
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B

brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,036
Don't you think there's something fishy about it? Some of them go into gruesome details of what is going to be happening to you while you're damned in hell for eternity. Some are putting it on a same level as murder. It doesn't really seem as a fair comparison to me.

I think I read Buddhism doesn't judge it too harshly as long as you don't shed a blood, therefore acts as VSED or hanging were allowed for very sick and old. But the different schools' views differ even there.

Ultimately it looks we could unite all of the known religions on this unanimously.

Which makes perfect sense, if their sole purpose is to succumb people to their authority and keep the show going.

That's just my opinion.

I'm naturally scared of the unknown, as no-one who succeded has come back to tell the story and even NDE experiences are very unreliable, since those might be subjected to the individual's own mind filters and beliefs.

I just have a strong inner feeling it's going to be okay and I wish to stick to that 🙂

What are your thoughts on this?
It's more in Christianity they don't want people killing themselves. It isn't an unforgiveable sin.
 
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H

Hotsackage

Enlightened
Mar 11, 2019
1,015
I wouldn't look to religion for anything, you can make your own mind up. Best wishes
 
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A

athiestjoe

Passenger
Sep 24, 2024
226
Welcome to the site; I see you are still fairly new. Once the search feature unlocks for you, you should search around as there are a lot of topics around this already...

When I chat about why most religions frown upon suicide, it boils down to key ideas like the sanctity of life and divine sovereignty. Many people believe life is a special gift from a higher power, so when someone takes their own life, it feels like they are undermining that sacredness. Additionally, there's a belief that only the divine has the authority to decide when a life should end, making suicide seem like a way of stepping outside that divine plan.

Historically, attitudes toward suicide have evolved significantly. In ancient times, especially in places like Mesopotamia, Greece, and Rome, suicide was often linked to concepts of honor and shame. For instance, Greek philosophers like Plato debated the morality of suicide, with some arguing that it could be a noble choice in desperate situations. In Roman culture, suicide was sometimes seen as an honorable escape from capture or disgrace.

However, this perspective shifted dramatically with the rise of Christianity. As it spread during the early centuries CE, views on suicide became increasingly negative. The belief in the sanctity of life became central to Christian teachings, emphasizing that only God has the right to take life. This perspective also influences Islam and Judaism, which both have strong prohibitions against suicide. During the Middle Ages, these religious views profoundly shaped societal attitudes toward suicide.

Interestingly, many people assume the Bible condemns taking one's own life. However, even a careful reader will search in vain for any explicit prohibition of self-killing in the Bible. In fact, the biblical attitude toward suicide ranges from ambivalence to praise. There are seven unambiguous examples of suicide in the Bible: Abimelech, mortally wounded by a millstone, ordered his armor-bearer to dispatch him to avoid the suggestion he had been slain by the woman who had thrown the stone (Judges 9:52-54); the prophet Ahithophel hanged himself after betraying David (2 Samuel 17:23); Zimri burned down his house around himself after military defeat (1 Kings 16:18); and the more familiar stories of Saul and his armor-bearer (1 Samuel 1:1-6; 1 Chronicles 10:1-6), Samson (Judges 16:28), and, of course, Jesus' disciple Judas—although it is only in Matthew's Gospel where he kills himself (Matthew 27:3-5; compare with Acts 1:18). There is nothing in any of these stories to suggest that the biblical narrators disapprove of the characters' suicides.

Suicide in the ancient world did not carry the same negative connotations as it does today. For Greco-Roman philosophers, suicide under correct circumstances constituted a "noble death." Socrates (469-399 B.C.E.) chose to drink hemlock rather than endure exile, a choice endorsed by most philosophical schools at the time. If carried out for country, friends, or in the face of intolerable pain, incurable disease, devastating misfortune, or shame, or to avoid capture on the battlefield, suicide was seen as noble. Each instance of suicide in the Bible aligns with these ideals. Saul's death, for example, parallels that of the Greek general Publius, who, similarly wounded on the battlefield, ordered his armor-bearer to kill him (Plutarch, Crassus 25.11).

Two of the biblical incidents exhibit a positive attitude toward suicide. The author of the Gospel of Matthew seems to invite the reader to interpret Judas's hanging as an act of remorse. Judas repents (metamelētheis) and returns the blood money he received for betraying Jesus (Matthew 27:3). He acknowledges, "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood" (Matthew 27:4). His suicide may be interpreted as an act of atonement, as he carries out the penalty laid down in the Hebrew Bible for taking a life: "no expiation can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of him who shed it" (Numbers 35:33; see also Leviticus 24:17). There is no hint of condemnation of Judas's self-killing in Matthew; if anything, it resolves his guilt rather than exacerbating it.

The Israelite leader Samson's suicide is similarly interpreted positively. The narrator highlights the death toll from Samson's actions at a pagan temple, emphasizing that God empowered him to carry out this act. Human and divine approval is sealed with the conclusion: "so those he killed at his death were more than those he had killed during his life" (Judges 16:30; compare with Hebrews 11:32-36). While modern readers may be less inclined to view Samson's suicide as commendable, parallel examples of heroic suicides exist in contemporary film (think of like Spock in The Wrath of Khan, astronauts in Armageddon and Deep Impact, and the character of Russell in Independence Day).

Despite these biblical examples, MOST Christians still believe that suicide IS NOT an unforgivable sin. Some may argue otherwise, but I strongly disagree based on religious texts and contemporary views. If someone has genuinely accepted Jesus and found redemption, that act is seen as covered by Christ's sacrifice. Verses about confession and forgiveness, like 1 John 1:9, focus on the relationship between a believer and God rather than strict legalism. Thus, for many, suicide does not outweigh the grace offered through Jesus.

Looking at other faiths reveals similar sentiments. In Mormonism, suicide is considered serious. The Church teaches that life is sacred and encourages individuals to seek help when struggling. They reference passages from the Doctrine and Covenants, like 121:7-8, reminding members to face trials with patience and seek comfort in their faith. While suicide is viewed as a sin, there's a strong belief in God's mercy, especially for those who may have acted out of mental illness or severe emotional pain. Jehovah's Witnesses also regard suicide as a sin against God because it contradicts the command to preserve life. However, they recognize that mental illness can impair a person's ability to make rational decisions, emphasizing the sanctity of life with verses like Ecclesiastes 7:17 and Isaiah 55:6-7, which encourage seeking God and imply that mercy is available for those who struggle.

In Islam, suicide is seen as a grave sin. Life is regarded as a gift from Allah, and only He has the right to take it away. The Quran underscores this notion in 5:32, equating killing oneself with slaying mankind entirely. Believers are encouraged to trust in Allah, reminded in 2:155-156 that trials are part of a divine test that should be met with patience. The Hadith literature also warns against suicide, indicating severe consequences for those who take their lives. Nonetheless, like other religions, Islam emphasizes Allah's mercy. The Quran reassures believers in 39:53 not to despair of Allah's mercy, suggesting that even serious sins can be forgiven. Scholars argue that if a Muslim who committed suicide was suffering from severe mental distress, Allah's mercy might extend to them.

While it seems that most major religions disapprove of suicide, there is often a layer of mercy involved—like the belief that God will forgive or that Jesus died for one's sins. Most faith traditions, in various ways, discourage suicide.

On the flip side, some religions and philosophies take a different stance. Buddhism, for instance, doesn't label suicide as a sin. Instead, it views it as a reflection of suffering and ignorance, emphasizing compassion and support for those in distress. Hinduism also has a nuanced approach; it doesn't outright condemn suicide but highlights karma and the importance of fulfilling one's dharma (duty). In cases of extreme pain, it might be seen as a tragic choice rather than a moral failing.

Unitarian Universalism encourages open discussions about mental health without judgment, emerging from the merger of Unitarianism and Universalism to emphasize spiritual growth and truth-seeking. They draw from various religious and philosophical traditions, promoting social justice. Secular humanism, while not a religion, focuses on human values, reason, and ethics, prioritizing human welfare and navigating life using rational thought. Existentialism, more philosophical than religious per se, acknowledges individual freedom, suggesting that people have the right to make choices about their lives, including the choice to end them.

As for me, I don't subscribe to any religious beliefs, so discussions about suicide & religious implications don't resonate with me personally. I see death as a natural part of life and am not concerned about what happens afterward or facing judgment from a divine being. However, I fully respect that everyone has their own beliefs and understandings!

Wishing you peace and serenity!
 
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NearlyIrrelevantCake

NearlyIrrelevantCake

The Cake Is A Lie
Aug 12, 2021
1,269
LaVeyan Satanism, which I follow, does not condemn suicide. If one is suffering and suicide will end that suffering, it's a valid choice to make.

I would also argue that The Satanic Temple [a different flavor of Satanism than LaVeyan] allows for suicide under their third tenet: One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
 
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