Q

quantumdynamics

Too old for this h*ck
Oct 28, 2018
28
As in, if we could blow up earth, or generate a black hole to expand and suck everything into itself, it would be a moral thing - as it will put an end to the phenomena that is "sentient life", and thus, to all the possibilities of evil. Because, according to this totalitarian, radical version of negative utilitarianism, preventing evil is more important than creating (or allowing the creation) of good, the aforementioned action is ethical.

What do YOU think?
 
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Mark Edward

Mark Edward

Member
Jan 19, 2019
62
Too deep for me, man.
 
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brighter

brighter

Warlock
Jan 22, 2019
718
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Firecaste

Firecaste

Experienced
Jan 5, 2019
216
Nihilism prevents me from thinking too hard about it, nothing matters and I don't care. I don't matter and nothing cares. xD
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
As in, if we could blow up earth, or generate a black hole to expand and suck everything into itself, it would be a moral thing - as it will put an end to the phenomena that is "sentient life", and thus, to all the possibilities of evil. Because, according to this totalitarian, radical version of negative utilitarianism, preventing evil is more important than creating (or allowing the creation) of good, the aforementioned action is ethical.

What do YOU think?

What is the actual question?
 
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WhiteRabbit

WhiteRabbit

I'm late, i'm late. For a very important date.
Feb 12, 2019
1,452
...Nah.
 
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Wolfjob_dayjob

Wolfjob_dayjob

Student
Oct 19, 2018
190
I'm too much of a human and self ego centered simpleton to condemn all the other life on the planet, even knowing were all related on some large eukaryotic prokaryotic tree... Life is a kill eat parasitize fuck horror fest from the tiniest bacterium... So since I in my grand human ego and conditioning can't relate to all animals suffering I can't care on that level.

Does that make sense? Like screw puppy breeders and stuff, but eh at salmons pointless upstream struggle or plant warfare because I eat them too...
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549


I've shared this wonderful film about three times on here over the last few months, hoping to get a dialogue going about antintalism and efilism but not a single person was interested.

Maybe third time is the charm.

This is a topic I am extremely passionate about so thanks for posting about it.
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Pretty simple: a hypothetical about blowing up the earth.


Yes, morality. But what is the actual question, what do I think about what?
 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
What is the actual question?
Yes, morality. But what is the actual question, what do I think about what?
Please could you write a v. long essay on the correct semantics required to ask a question and the logic needed to present a concept to make it worthy of discussion on this forum? That would be so helpful.

Oh, and also is slow brain death from bog awful tedium reliable and does it hurt I think it would hurt lotz but can I have a wrapped chocolate straight after and can I make it look like an accident because my mum, my new puppy, that shiny thing.

Thx.
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
Please could you write a v. long essay on the correct semantics required to ask a question and the logic needed to present a concept to make it worthy of discussion on this forum? That would be so helpful.

Oh, and also is slow brain death from bog awful tedium reliable and does it hurt I think it would hurt lotz but can I have a wrapped chocolate straight after and can I make it look like an accident because my mum, my new puppy, that shiny thing.

Thx.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm asking the op (or others) for a clarification of the question because I was having a hard time understanding it.
 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm asking the op (or others) for a clarification of the question because I was having a hard time understanding it.
No, not quite. You were being pedantic, and showing of your self appraised intellectual superiority by pointing that tiny limp stick of yours at the OP for a logical and semantic technicality. And now you're just being disingenuous.
 
waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
No, not quite. You were being pedantic, and showing of your self appraised intellectual superiority by pointing that tiny limp stick of yours at the OP for a logical and semantic technicality. And now you're just being disingenuous.

I'm not sure why I'm being insulted. I thought that I should first ask them for clarification before responding to anything specifically. (and why are you responding to me and none of the other users who didn't get it first?)
 
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WayOut

WayOut

Experienced
Oct 26, 2018
281
I'm not sure why I'm being insulted. I thought that I should first ask them for clarification before responding to anything specifically. (and why are you responding to me and none of the other users who didn't get it first?)
How about letting the people who understood the OP and are interested in the topic chat about it. And how about not posting shit just to bignote yourself lol. If you can't understand the "question", being "What do YOU think?" after some people have tried to explain it to you, move on.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
As in, if we could blow up earth, or generate a black hole to expand and suck everything into itself, it would be a moral thing - as it will put an end to the phenomena that is "sentient life", and thus, to all the possibilities of evil. Because, according to this totalitarian, radical version of negative utilitarianism, preventing evil is more important than creating (or allowing the creation) of good, the aforementioned action is ethical.

What do YOU think?


I'm too cowardly to share publicly what I think, but I do agree that suffering (experience and infliction on others) is a likely consequence of sentience, at least on earth. I find myself nowadays rooting for the cosmic bad guys in sci fi movies...
 
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waived

waived

I am a sunrise
Jan 5, 2019
974
How about letting the people who understood the OP and are interested in the topic chat about it.

I'm pretty sure this is what was happening until you started posting.

And how about not posting shit just to bignote yourself lol. If you can't understand the "question", being "What do YOU think?" after some people have tried to explain it to you, move on.

I wasn't sure if Wolfjob was actually replying to me and smilla's reply of "a hypothetical about blowing up the earth" didn't help me understand anything any further. Am I not allowed to ask for clarification or still not understand something? I would hope you're not trying to grandstand off of something like this.

I'm going to await the op's reply from this post on so there's no need for you to make up any more accusations that you can't prove. I think that conversation is clearly over with.
 
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Q

quantumdynamics

Too old for this h*ck
Oct 28, 2018
28
@Mark Edward @brighter hehe, it's a satisfying feeling to know I brainfucked someone ;)
@FTL.Wanderer haha yes, like r/thanosdidnothingwrong but only thanos did half a job lmao.
@Smilla thank you, I'll watch and post back!!
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782


This is a topic I am extremely passionate about so thanks for posting about it.


I'm passionate about these subjects, too, but the reception, even among the most characteristically mild-mannered, can be so predictably negative that, already being suicidal, I opt not to subject myself to it. I think it's doubtful humanity will ever largely embrace these perspectives. Oh well...
 
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A

Armadillo

Experienced
Oct 24, 2018
224
preventing evil is more important than creating (or allowing the creation) of good, the aforementioned action is ethical.

What do YOU think?

I think it's a non sequitur.

-"preventing evil is more important than creating good"

Different people try to argue in different ways to prove this.
A lot of efilists say that since every pleasure is an already existing unsatisfied desire (suffering) being satisfied the search for pleasure/happiness is a zero-sum game.
I disagree but that's not the point anyway.

It is to me a thing that still needs proof that an utilitarian society that values the reduction of suffering is "better" than one that strives to minimise suffering and maximise happiness at the same time.


-"therefore that action is ethical"

This is where I think it doesn't follow.

In wich way an action is moral or ethical?
And is the fact that an action is so a reason for doing it?


But yes, I'd say that I would press the "red button", as I think would do an omniscient and compassionate being since conscious life on Earth is, I think (this can hardly be proven with a satisfying amount of accuracy), a negative sum game (the total amount of suffering outweights the total amount of pleasure).
 
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JJ-NOHOPE

JJ-NOHOPE

Tantalus - all desire, no hope
Nov 26, 2018
119


I've shared this wonderful film about three times on here over the last few months, hoping to get a dialogue going about antintalism and efilism but not a single person was interested.

Maybe third time is the charm.

This is a topic I am extremely passionate about so thanks for posting about it.


Thanks Smilla for posting this extremely interesting film. I watched it yesterday.

It's a fascinating topic. It's very true that life based on a food chain is very horrific if you think about it.

There is some beauty in this world, music, literature, etc. But is that beauty worth the amount of suffering?

I don't have the answer.
 
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Q

quantumdynamics

Too old for this h*ck
Oct 28, 2018
28
Apparently The Onion predicted an Efilist society 6 years ago! F**king EPIC

@Armadillo - One way you can look at it is from the Buddhist perspective. Once a desire is satisfied, a new one appears, or the fear of losing what was just gained. It's a bottomless pit.
Also, I base my assertion (partly) on what seems to be a universal human trait: We feel negative feelings much more intensely than we feel positive ones. More on this subject: A 7 minute read from Psychology Today.
It's almost like this neg. utilitarian logic is commonplace, only we suspend it when it comes to things like having babies, and deciding whether eliminating all sentient life is ethical.
But... I never had this view of mine challenged properly, unfortunately.
 
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A

Armadillo

Experienced
Oct 24, 2018
224
One way you can look at it is from the Buddhist perspective. Once a desire is satisfied, a new one appears, or the fear of losing what was just gained. It's a bottomless pit.
Also, I base my assertion (partly) on what seems to be a universal human trait: We feel negative feelings much more intensely than we feel positive ones. More on this subject: A 7 minute read from Psychology Today.
It's almost like this neg. utilitarian logic is commonplace, only we suspend it when it comes to things like having babies, and deciding whether eliminating all sentient life is ethical.
But... I never had this view of mine challenged properly, unfortunately.

I agree that the satisfaction of one desire is always followed by another one but I wouldn't use the analogy of a bottomless pit.
Yes, if you look at it from a reductive and simplicistic way you can say that we're basically pieces of meat costantly seeking the next stimulus that can activate the pleasure centers of our brain. It is not incorrect but it still isn't necessarly, pleasure-pain wise, a negative sum game.

Lets say you decide to fast for 8 hours, the lack of meeting the need for food is causing you some sort of pain (hunger) and then you eat, satysfying your need (pleasure). Of course after a few hours the cycle is gonna repeat itself but was it a negative or zero sum game? It may very well be that the pleasure that came from eating tasty food outweighted the suffering caused from hunger.

On the fact that we react more intensely to negative stimuli than positive ones... I'm aware of that. Suffering is the basic condition of conscious life after all. You need to do something to feel pleasure/happiness, to feel pain is extremely easy. Try not getting out of your bed for a month straight. You can't do that.
You'll eventually have to eat, drink, go to the bathroom etc.
The suffering will literally become unbereable and drive you to do stuff to avoid it.
And it is true that "good" stuff doesn't feel as good as we usually expect (hedonistic treadmill) but bad does. A clear example of this are winners of the lottery.

What I am saying is that altough all of this is true it doesn't imply that human life is a negative sum game. Most people consider their lives worth living (and not all of them can be delusional on this), we are an exception to the rule.

BTW if you're interested on the topic of the problem of suffering in conscious beings I'd suggest you to look into David Pearce's transhumanist philosophy and the abolitionist project.
It's still 100% hypothetical (as it is the efilist red button after all), but it's an interesting "optimistic alternative" to efilism. If both options were practical efilism wouldn't have reason to exist anymore IMHO.
 
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L

Logic

Student
Dec 20, 2018
172
I'm passionate about these subjects, too, but the reception, even among the most characteristically mild-mannered, can be so predictably negative that, already being suicidal, I opt not to subject myself to it. I think it's doubtful humanity will ever largely embrace these perspectives. Oh well...

Eh, future of sentient life is superior AGI eventually. I am sure they will do far better than us.
 
L

Logic

Student
Dec 20, 2018
172
I agree that the satisfaction of one desire is always followed by another one but I wouldn't use the analogy of a bottomless pit.
Yes, if you look at it from a reductive and simplicistic way you can say that we're basically pieces of meat costantly seeking the next stimulus that can activate the pleasure centers of our brain. It is not incorrect but it still isn't necessarly, pleasure-pain wise, a negative sum game.

Lets say you decide to fast for 8 hours, the lack of meeting the need for food is causing you some sort of pain (hunger) and then you eat, satysfying your need (pleasure). Of course after a few hours the cycle is gonna repeat itself but was it a negative or zero sum game? It may very well be that the pleasure that came from eating tasty food outweighted the suffering caused from hunger.

On the fact that we react more intensely to negative stimuli than positive ones... I'm aware of that. Suffering is the basic condition of conscious life after all. You need to do something to feel pleasure/happiness, to feel pain is extremely easy. Try not getting out of your bed for a month straight. You can't do that.
You'll eventually have to eat, drink, go to the bathroom etc.
The suffering will literally become unbereable and drive you to do stuff to avoid it.
And it is true that "good" stuff doesn't feel as good as we usually expect (hedonistic treadmill) but bad does. A clear example of this are winners of the lottery.

What I am saying is that altough all of this is true it doesn't imply that human life is a negative sum game. Most people consider their lives worth living (and not all of them can be delusional on this), we are an exception to the rule.

BTW if you're interested on the topic of the problem of suffering in conscious beings I'd suggest you to look into David Pearce's transhumanist philosophy and the abolitionist project.
It's still 100% hypothetical (as it is the efilist red button after all), but it's an interesting "optimistic alternative" to efilism. If both options were practical efilism wouldn't have reason to exist anymore IMHO.

Do you think if you had everything accurately measured there would be more pleasure than suffering in human life? Why does humans consider their life worth living make it worth living? How do all the biases such as being conditioned from a young age to think life is worth living, and a million other effect all this? It's absurd to say it has no impact on thinking and judgment. Hell, let's take religion. Religion often acts as a denial of death mechanism more than what the people actually claim to believe.
 
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A

Armadillo

Experienced
Oct 24, 2018
224
Do you think if you had everything accurately measured there would be more pleasure than suffering in human life? Why does humans consider their life worth living make it worth living? How do all the biases such as being conditioned from a young age to think life is worth living, and a million other effect all this? It's absurd to say it has no impact on thinking and judgment. Hell, let's take religion. Religion often acts as a denial of death mechanism more than what the people actually claim to believe.

Are you talking about human life in general or is this a rule that you would apply to every human being?
Recognizing the optimism bias, as I said, doesn't imply that human life is always a negative experience overall.
And even the hypothetical removal delusions like these (optimism, religion etc.) wouldn't necessarly make everyone's life a negative thing.
If we consider life an experience, for some people would be a positive one (with or without delusions) and for others a negative one. I don't know the percentages for sure but I guess the majority of humanity falls in the first block.
 
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throwaway123

throwaway123

Hell0
Aug 5, 2018
1,446
At this point I don't care about other people anymore. I just want to end my suffering and to be honest some people that I know deserve to suffer so I couldn't care less about them.
 
Zzzzz

Zzzzz

Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
Aug 8, 2018
879
I dont think Efilists should use the blowing up the Earth analogy. it makes it seem like they want to commit mass genocide. However , the button analogy does demonstrate the fact that so many creatures are suffering to the extent that they would be tempted to push the button simply to end their own suffering. Abuse, Predatory behavior and suffering are all fundamental to life on Earth. Because of these things, life is therefore considered unethical.
 
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Logic

Student
Dec 20, 2018
172
Are you talking about human life in general or is this a rule that you would apply to every human being?
Recognizing the optimism bias, as I said, doesn't imply that human life is always a negative experience overall.
And even the hypothetical removal delusions like these (optimism, religion etc.) wouldn't necessarly make everyone's life a negative thing.
If we consider life an experience, for some people would be a positive one (with or without delusions) and for others a negative one. I don't know the percentages for sure but I guess the majority of humanity falls in the first block.

How are you determining these things? What parameters are you using?
 
Q

quantumdynamics

Too old for this h*ck
Oct 28, 2018
28
What I am saying is that altough all of this is true it doesn't imply that human life is a negative sum game. Most people consider their lives worth living (and not all of them can be delusional on this), we are an exception to the rule.
practical efilism wouldn't have reason to exist anymore IMHO.

So based on the efilist/neg. utilitarian standard, the "negative value" of badness/evil [however defined] is so much greater than any "positive value" of good [again, doesn't matter according to which definition], to such a large, obvious extent, that it is pointless to weight them against each other. I think people cannot claim their own life are worth-having without suspending this logic. Overlooking it. Rationalizing. etc.
Like @Logic said, societal indoctrination on the "sanctity of life" is mostly to blame.
That moral argument is elegantly laid out in this ~90m debate by David Benatar in support of antinatalism, confronting Jordan Peterson.
 
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