Venting Does every rice ball have a plum?

[borderline-feline]

This is probably gonna sound weird initially, but it'll make sense with some explanation. I mentioned this metaphor in a previous thread when talking about a conversation I had with my favorite person. I'm venting, but I would like some advice on convincing people if anyone has an idea for how to show others that I'm worthless.

For those unfamiliar with the metaphor I'm talking about, there's this anime called Fruits Basket. The Protagonist of Fruits Basket, Honda Tōru, says to a friend of hers:
"If a person is a rice ball, and what's great about the person is a pickled plum, then maybe your plum is on your back. Maybe everyone in the world has plums on their backs of all different shapes, colors, and sizes. But since they can't see their backs, they can't see the plums they have. They think they don't have anything--that they're just plain white rice. Even though it's not true at all--even though they really do have a plum there. Maybe the reason we get jealous of others is because other people's backs are easy to see."

I think Tōru's idea is completely off the mark. My favorite person said to me during a conversation/argument "The plum is on your fucking back", but I don't think that I have a plum. Not every rice ball can have a plum, just like not every person has skills, abilities, potential, or a purpose.

It feels so dismissive to say that EVERYONE has a plum, and it really just comes across as toxic positivity. There's literally nothing that I can do right, yet the world tries to manipulate me into believing otherwise with words of "encouragement" that end up as nothing more than mere platitudes.

Why do people genuinely seem to believe such an asinine statement as "nobody is worthless"? Other people refuse to accept that I objectively know myself better than they could ever possibly know me. Even my favorite person believes the lie about every rice ball having a plum. Human life doesn't have inherent value, at least no more than any other form of life, including bacteria.

I would barely qualify as a rice ball, so why would it be so strange for me to not have a plum? Is there a way to convince people of the reality that I have no plum, or will people always just hold onto a belief that has no basis in reality? Are people just so absorbed by toxic positivity that they've blinded themselves to the reality that some people just have no value?

 

[mousepadkeyboard223]

i think the notion of a plum is all subjective. one might find something valuable in another; another person may not find that same something valuable. in the end, you know yourself best, and your favorite person has their own opinion. of course, saying "everyone has a plum" comes across as an overgeneralization, but if they are your favorite person, i think they may have meant it with good intent (judging this would need more context, though). sometimes, it's hard to be frank about the negative aspects of someone you like, and whether your favorite person truly agreed or disagreed with the idea of you having no plum, they probably wanted to avoid the problem at hand, as we all do sometimes, and even more so during a conversation/argument when we tend to think less of what we say and typically try to 'win' when it's not as black and white as that.

that being said, i definitely relate to you in feeling that you have no plum, and i'm sorry you feel that way-it really feels as if people try to ignore it with toxic positivity. in my eyes, your feelings are completely valid, but you know whether something is valid to you or not: you know yourself best. if i got the metaphor right, i believe i'm part of the "barely qualifying as a rice ball" group too, and it's one of the reasons why we're here, i guess. there's my two cents, sorry i don't really have a way to convince other people of yourself being plumless.

TL;DR: plums are subjective.

on a side note, if you're fine with saying, what exactly does your favorite person believe your plum is?

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Every single person I know at least pretty well has something unique and special to offer that's not easily substituted, even if that something can't necessarily be precisely defined. Since that's true of everyone I know I'd be inclined to believe that of you as well even though you're a stranger. No one is saying that that something has to be earth-shattering or history-defining. Not everything worthwhile has to exist on such a grand scale. If you're drawn to this person as your favorite person, then it's likely he has a high opinion of you and is unlikely to agree that you're worthless scum. Death might in fact be the most humane option for you, but it won't be because you lack the right to exist.

 

[borderline-feline]

i think the notion of a plum is all subjective. one might find something valuable in another; another person may not find that same something valuable. in the end, you know yourself best, and your favorite person has their own opinion. of course, saying "everyone has a plum" comes across as an overgeneralization, but if they are your favorite person, i think they may have meant it with good intent (judging this would need more context, though). sometimes, it's hard to be frank about the negative aspects of someone you like, and whether your favorite person truly agreed or disagreed with the idea of you having no plum, they probably wanted to avoid the problem at hand, as we all do sometimes, and even more so during a conversation/argument when we tend to think less of what we say and typically try to 'win' when it's not as black and white as that.

that being said, i definitely relate to you in feeling that you have no plum, and i'm sorry you feel that way-it really feels as if people try to ignore it with toxic positivity. in my eyes, your feelings are completely valid, but you know whether something is valid to you or not: you know yourself best. if i got the metaphor right, i believe i'm part of the "barely qualifying as a rice ball" group too, and it's one of the reasons why we're here, i guess. there's my two cents, sorry i don't really have a way to convince other people of yourself being plumless.

TL;DR: plums are subjective.

on a side note, if you're fine with saying, what exactly does your favorite person believe your plum is?

Well, he hasn't said what the plum is, but he seems convinced that I'm creative and a good singer, but I strongly disagree with him on both of those fronts. It may be worth noting that this conversation happened in mid November, but I've been thinking about the plum concept a lot lately. I feel like a lot of people don't think that I'm capable of making the judgment that I have no plum since I don't really have a sense of self.

I say it was an argument, but it was more that I was talking about how I felt hopeless because I'll eventually have to quit my job when I lose transportation (unknown when it'll happen), and he was giving me all kinds of ideas for ways to earn a living. I told him that I'm not good at anything and that I'm awful at writing and will never be able to learn to draw.

I explained that I'm not as brave, strong, or capable as he thinks that I am. He insisted that I'm stronger than I realize, and when I said that I have no strength, just cowardice, he said "That's not true. Because you still have strength now. You have been dealing with so much shit that takes strength. It's not as much as you'd like and it's not the kind you used to have but it's there and it's something. The plum is on your fucking back."

He thinks that I'm strong because I've gone through a lot of trauma and harassment in my life, but I always seem to bounce back. I don't actually bounce back; I just tell people that I'm okay so that they'll stay with me. When I tell people that I still feel like shit after they try to help me, they usually get tired of my shit and leave.

Every single person I know at least pretty well has something unique and special to offer that's not easily substituted, even if that something can't necessarily be precisely defined. Since that's true of everyone I know I'd be inclined to believe that of you as well even though you're a stranger. No one is saying that that something has to be earth-shattering or history-defining. Not everything worthwhile has to exist on such a grand scale. If you're drawn to this person as your favorite person, then it's likely he has a high opinion of you and is unlikely to agree that you're worthless scum. Death might in fact be the most humane option for you, but it won't be because you lack the right to exist.

He very much has a high opinion of me, but I think that his judgment is clouded by the feelings he has for me. I have no skills or talents. I struggle to do the job I have despite it being potentially the easiest job imaginable. I have no interests that could be channeled into a career. I can barely function in general, and I'm too dependent on people due to the fact that I have no identity.

I'm also a bad person. I don't think I should have the right to exist. Sometimes I start to think about how I've hurt enough people in life and don't want my death to hurt more people, so I just wish that I'd been aborted so that I wouldn't've been put in this situation in the first place and I wouldn't've been able to hurt people.

Every single person I know at least pretty well has something unique and special to offer that's not easily substituted, even if that something can't necessarily be precisely defined. Since that's true of everyone I know I'd be inclined to believe that of you as well even though you're a stranger. No one is saying that that something has to be earth-shattering or history-defining. Not everything worthwhile has to exist on such a grand scale. If you're drawn to this person as your favorite person, then it's likely he has a high opinion of you and is unlikely to agree that you're worthless scum. Death might in fact be the most humane option for you, but it won't be because you lack the right to exist.

I also want to clarify that someone being my favorite person doesn't inherently mean that they feel positively about me. Someone being my favorite person just means that I've latched onto them and have become obsessed with them for one reason or another. Usually it's a result of being shown kindness, because I'm not used to receiving kindness. My current favorite person does love me, but I don't know if he loves me in the way that I want him to.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Well, skills and talents aren't necessarily the best way to assess people's value. People can have natural aptitude but skills are acquired. But struggling with your mental health makes learning much harder. As well as doing any kind of job no matter how easy it seems. Doing things perfectly is a lot to expect out of you when your mental energy is so sapped and depleted. I understand the lack of functionality and that's a very valid to want to CTB; i just think it's a separate matter from what you're worth.

In any case, it sounds like convincing him of what you want him to believe is probably a futile effort. With CTB what matters most is that you have full confidence in your decision. There are people in my life who won't yield to me about my decision to CTB no matter what I say. I can't let myself be bound by whether they approve or not but I know your attachment to this person is probably stronger and therefore your needs different.

Sorry I don't mean to try to change your mind about yourself. How you feel is certainly how many people contemplating CTB feel.

 

[borderline-feline]

Well, skills and talents aren't necessarily the best way to assess people's value. People can have natural aptitude but skills are acquired. But struggling with your mental health makes learning much harder. As well as doing any kind of job no matter how easy it seems. Doing things perfectly is a lot to expect out of you when your mental energy is so sapped and depleted. I understand the lack of functionality and that's a very valid to want to CTB; i just think it's a separate matter from what you're worth.

In any case, it sounds like convincing him of what you want him to believe is probably a futile effort. With CTB what matters most is that you have full confidence in your decision. There are people in my life who won't yield to me about my decision to CTB no matter what I say. I can't let myself be bound by whether they approve or not but I know your attachment to this person is probably stronger and therefore your needs different.

I would say that my life belongs to him. After the argument I mentioned, I got terrified that he would leave me, so I promised not to self-harm or catch the bus, and I told him that he was right about there being a plum on my back.

I know that I shouldn't've made that promise or told him that he was right, but I wouldn't be able to handle it if he left me, and I was afraid he'd be tired of my bullshit like everyone before him.

I'm not capable of acquiring skills. I've tried, but I get extremely overwhelmed every time. I have no options in terms of a career, and I don't want to just live my life on disability.

I'm always going to be struggling with my mental health because nothing has helped me. Medication and therapy haven't done anything to dull my emotions, make me less obsessive, or make me an actual person with an identity.

I'm incompetent. I'm nothing but a worthless protoplasm.

I don't deserve to be happy because I'm a bad person. I don't even want to be happy. I just want to die. I want the pain to end, even if I do deserve to suffer.

 

[clueless2dayor2morro]

i just wanted to say i really like fruits basket and that i feel a lot of the things you feel about yourself because people who are strangers have treated me in a way to make me feel worthless. it's hard to find the plum on your back is hard when no one/a large majority of people who could potentially employ us and make life worth living values the metaphorical plum we supposedly all have.

i don't know exactly what it is that you do that makes you a bad person, but i want to offer the perspective that lots of people who are genuinely bad people (people who steal, manipulate (and i mean truly use tactics and do horrible things, things that hurt people mentally or sometimes, at the worst of it, physically) just to get their way) and other things we have deemed to be shameful , "unforgiveable" or horrible acts as a society) seem to live their lives just fine, without any guilt or a second thought.

i also want to emphasize, as in the other posts, that its quite hard to have motivation to build the skills for employability or for value from others when no one seems to have or want to take the time for us to build these things with us. and there's almost an overload of information of tutorials on how to build these skills and not enough time that we can't decipher what information is good and useful and what information is useless and just info being pushed by search engine optimization/trending algorithms.

it's even harder when you know that creative skills are mostly profitable when you got a good marketing team behind you, which costs money and sometimes social skills and inside connections (which is often inherited, but can sometimes be cultivated with a lot of hard work/energy).

i'm not here to change your feelings about yourself, your wish to choose an early death or to question the validity of your experiences. but i want to say that i feel like this introspection, even though its bringing you a lot of pain, is more than what most truly horrible people do for themselves.

i hope that your favorite person is being genuine and truthful in their perspective on you, because if they were telling you these things without truth it wouldn't matter at all. but if you feel there is any truth to their perspective on you, then i think that maybe it isn't that you don't deserve to live--it's just that you live in a society where people don't value you and people aren't helping you put in the effort to build the skills to be valued and employable.

i'm truly sorry if any of this came off as toxically positive. but i hope that i gave you a little bit of perspective; take what you need and leave the rest-- i hope you are able to feel differently because, like in fruits basket's song; we can't be born again but we can change.

i understand and struggle with, even right now, this wanting to want to live. maybe not in quite the same way you do, of course (because i'm me and the technology is not advanced enough to import your feelings and experiences into my brain via internet).

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do understand your frustration. I think we all want our difficulties in life to be acknowledged rather than white washed over with platitudes.

Still, I guess it's hard for your friend. They obviously care about you a great deal and they want you to get better. I think most people think the way to do this is to emphasize the positive... Perhaps it is. If someone just agreed with us that we were utterly useless and hopeless- maybe we would feel worse. I don't know.

I hate to say it- it's hardly going to help. Still- I know lots of people who have plums on their backs and they're still struggling in life. Just because you have a particular talent- doesn't mean it will be valued in today's world. You can end up just as stuck because you have given all your time and money into developing a skill that is seldom needed now. I've worked in retail with a lady with a PhD. She was actually embarrassed for people to know.

I completely get your frustration though. People just seem to talk about stuff like it's easy to achieve (even if they are struggling themselves.) It's really dismissive really because it's a lie! Plus, I agree- people who act strong are sometimes just putting on an act. I think so many of us are just barely treading water and we're just so tired of doing it.

I'm sorry you are having this experience. It must be very difficult.

 

[borderline-feline]

i just wanted to say i really like fruits basket and that i feel a lot of the things you feel about yourself because people who are strangers have treated me in a way to make me feel worthless. it's hard to find the plum on your back is hard when no one/a large majority of people who could potentially employ us and make life worth living values the metaphorical plum we supposedly all have.

i don't know exactly what it is that you do that makes you a bad person, but i want to offer the perspective that lots of people who are genuinely bad people (people who steal, manipulate (and i mean truly use tactics and do horrible things, things that hurt people mentally or sometimes, at the worst of it, physically) just to get their way) and other things we have deemed to be shameful , "unforgiveable" or horrible acts as a society) seem to live their lives just fine, without any guilt or a second thought.

i also want to emphasize, as in the other posts, that its quite hard to have motivation to build the skills for employability or for value from others when no one seems to have or want to take the time for us to build these things with us. and there's almost an overload of information of tutorials on how to build these skills and not enough time that we can't decipher what information is good and useful and what information is useless and just info being pushed by search engine optimization/trending algorithms.

it's even harder when you know that creative skills are mostly profitable when you got a good marketing team behind you, which costs money and sometimes social skills and inside connections (which is often inherited, but can sometimes be cultivated with a lot of hard work/energy).

i'm not here to change your feelings about yourself, your wish to choose an early death or to question the validity of your experiences. but i want to say that i feel like this introspection, even though its bringing you a lot of pain, is more than what most truly horrible people do for themselves.

i hope that your favorite person is being genuine and truthful in their perspective on you, because if they were telling you these things without truth it wouldn't matter at all. but if you feel there is any truth to their perspective on you, then i think that maybe it isn't that you don't deserve to live--it's just that you live in a society where people don't value you and people aren't helping you put in the effort to build the skills to be valued and employable.

i'm truly sorry if any of this came off as toxically positive. but i hope that i gave you a little bit of perspective; take what you need and leave the rest-- i hope you are able to feel differently because, like in fruits basket's song; we can't be born again but we can change.

i understand and struggle with, even right now, this wanting to want to live. maybe not in quite the same way you do, of course (because i'm me and the technology is not advanced enough to import your feelings and experiences into my brain via internet).

It's not a matter of having motivation to build skills. I'm not capable of developing skills.

The problem is also not that other people have treated me like I'm worthless, but that other people refuse to accept that I'm worthless. The fact that someone refers to themselves as worthless doesn't mean that it's the result of other people making them believe it.

I need people around me to reinforce my worthlessness and incompetence, but everyone around me refuses to do so because they don't want to hurt me. What they don't realize is that telling me that there's a plum on my back IS hurting me. It's a blatant denial of reality to say that I'll ever be able to do anything. That's why I'm very vocal about my hatred of toxic positivity.

It all just comes back into very unhealthy perspectives and relationships. People don't want to let me say factual things about myself, like that I'm unintelligent, talentless, ugly, and worthless. People just want me to deny that reality and live in their fantasy world where there are no problems, People like that disgust me. That said, I'm not disgusted by you. While I disagree with you, you haven't treated me like most people have.

People can't change the basic fundamentals of who they are. I can't make myself an actual person, because I will never have an identity. The lack of an identity alone should be enough to show that I'm worthless and shouldn't have any right to live. All I ever do is make problems for other people. I'm objectively a bad person.

I do understand your frustration. I think we all want our difficulties in life to be acknowledged rather than white washed over with platitudes.

Still, I guess it's hard for your friend. They obviously care about you a great deal and they want you to get better. I think most people think the way to do this is to emphasize the positive... Perhaps it is. If someone just agreed with us that we were utterly useless and hopeless- maybe we would feel worse. I don't know.

I hate to say it- it's hardly going to help. Still- I know lots of people who have plums on their backs and they're still struggling in life. Just because you have a particular talent- doesn't mean it will be valued in today's world. You can end up just as stuck because you have given all your time and money into developing a skill that is seldom needed now. I've worked in retail with a lady with a PhD. She was actually embarrassed for people to know.

I completely get your frustration though. People just seem to talk about stuff like it's easy to achieve (even if they are struggling themselves.) It's really dismissive really because it's a lie! Plus, I agree- people who act strong are sometimes just putting on an act. I think so many of us are just barely treading water and we're just so tired of doing it.

I'm sorry you are having this experience. It must be very difficult.

I wish that my favorite person were to just start hating me. At that point, I'd be able to just get the shotgun out of the garage and end my life. By all accounts, he SHOULD hate me. Everyone SHOULD hate me.

I don't have a plum. I'm not even white rice since even that has a flavor to it. I have no value and no potential. If I could convince my favorite person that I'm worthless and beyond saving, then maybe he would give me permission to die.

 

[Uber]

@borderline-feline ,

What standard or morality are you using to determine you're "a bad person"?

 

[borderline-feline]

@borderline-feline ,

What standard or morality are you using to determine you're "a bad person"?

The fact that I've spent almost 5 months wishing for bad things to happen to specific people and the fact that I would jump at the opportunity to cause those bad things to happen are pretty clear indicators that I'm a bad person.

I've also consistently spent my life causing harm to people in every single relationship I've had. Even if I regret causing all of that pain (except to my ex-girlfriend; she deserved it), the point still stands that I've caused pain. I was the primary cause of a previous favorite person of mine having his life ruined and being driven to the point of wanting to die. I'm a bad person. I need for people to hate me.

 

[Uber]

@borderline-feline ,

As @clueless2dayor2morro touched on earlier, many, or even most, that do bad things see no fault in themselves. The fact that you recognize this speaks volumes.

At the risk of being lumped into one of your disliked groups above, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I think you are an average Joe (with an above average conscience) that has done some bad things.

 

[borderline-feline]

@borderline-feline ,

As @clueless2dayor2morro touched on earlier, many, or even most, that do bad things see no fault in themselves. The fact that you recognize this speaks volumes.

At the risk of being lumped into one of your disliked groups above, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I think you are an average Joe (with an above average conscience) that has done some bad things.

Feelings are irrelevant to whether or not someone is a bad person. What matters are actions. I don't have an above-average conscience, considering I'm still wishing pain on other people. Even if those people deserve to suffer, wishing for them to suffer makes me a bad person, especially since it's over something that shouldn't matter in any way.

I've been having meltdowns for almost 5 months about something incredibly stupid and not worth getting suicidal over, but it's yet another reason to want to die and yet another name to place blame on in a suicide note.

 

[Uber]

Feelings are irrelevant to whether or not someone is a bad person. What matters are actions.

Wrong. One has to recognize they are in error before it can be corrected.

As it's often said, the first step to overcoming alcoholism is admitting you have a problem, for example.

It's very freeing to forgive people. Stop letting them live rent free in your head and thus controlling your life. Kick them out and move on. Peace to you.

 

[borderline-feline]

Wrong. One has to recognize they are in error before it can be corrected.

As it's often said, the first step to overcoming alcoholism is admitting you have a problem, for example.

It's very freeing to forgive people. Stop letting them live rent free in your head and thus controlling your life. Kick them out and move on. Peace to you.

I'm not wrong. Recognizing that you did something bad doesn't make you no longer a bad person. I would still act on the desire to hurt certain people if I had the opportunity.

One of my main life philosophies is to not give forgiveness to anyone more than once. I also live by the fact that forgiveness is completely optional in general. It's not even remotely freeing to forgive people, and it actually can be a form of self-harm.

Who do you suggest I have control my life? If you say that it should be me, then you're wrong about that. The only life that I would see as worth living would be life as my favorite person's pet, but that's not going to happen because he doesn't want me as a pet.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

It's just hard to believe that you're as terrible as you say you are. Sure, people have flaws, people can be terrible assholes, but you're basically saying that you are Satan. I second the opinion that you can't be as bad as you say if you feel remorse. It takes a whole lot to deserve to die because of your character and actions and while you may have sound reasons to CTB it's hard to agree that it's because of your character. Which is fine because you don't need anyone's agreement, but if you say you do it's not likely you'll get it...

 

[clueless2dayor2morro]

I'm not wrong. Recognizing that you did something bad doesn't make you no longer a bad person. I would still act on the desire to hurt certain people if I had the opportunity.

One of my main life philosophies is to not give forgiveness to anyone more than once. I also live by the fact that forgiveness is completely optional in general. It's not even remotely freeing to forgive people, and it actually can be a form of self-harm.

Who do you suggest I have control my life? If you say that it should be me, then you're wrong about that. The only life that I would see as worth living would be life as my favorite person's pet, but that's not going to happen because he doesn't want me as a pet.

hey i just wanted to second this notion. i know it's sort of frowned upon by most of society, and there are plenty of relationships that (likely not openly admitting this) probably do have this dynamic. i often, too, wish i was desirable enough to be kept as someone's pet, preferably a person who was good to me and others. but most people who keep people as pets are usually abusive and inconsiderate of others and tend to be very hurtful and quick to abandon.

even if it an unhealthy ideal, it would be nice if it was feasible to just be taken care of be told what to do. but people often tire of this dynamic quickly as well unless it's fulfilling a part of their life that they aren't addressing themselves very well.

 

[borderline-feline]

It's just hard to believe that you're as terrible as you say you are. Sure, people have flaws, people can be terrible assholes, but you're basically saying that you are Satan. I second the opinion that you can't be as bad as you say if you feel remorse. It takes a whole lot to deserve to die because of your character and actions and while you may have sound reasons to CTB it's hard to agree that it's because of your character. Which is fine because you don't need anyone's agreement, but if you say you do it's not likely you'll get it...

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I'm objectively a bad person, and I deserve to suffer. I just wish I could get permission to die.

Maybe if my favorite person realized how worthless and awful I am, then he'd give me permission to die. I doubt he'd ever see that reality though; he's too blinded by his feelings for me.

It's just hard to believe that you're as terrible as you say you are. Sure, people have flaws, people can be terrible assholes, but you're basically saying that you are Satan. I second the opinion that you can't be as bad as you say if you feel remorse. It takes a whole lot to deserve to die because of your character and actions and while you may have sound reasons to CTB it's hard to agree that it's because of your character. Which is fine because you don't need anyone's agreement, but if you say you do it's not likely you'll get it...

If I told you what has me so furious and in so much pain as of late as well as wishing for harm to come to people, then you'd say that I'm an unhinged bad person who's massively overreacting to something that shouldn't be an issue, especially not an issue of this magnitude.

I'm not comfortable talking about the reason why though. The last time I tried venting to strangers on the internet about it, I got harassed.

 

[nozomu]

Every single person I know at least pretty well has something unique and special to offer that's not easily substituted, even if that something can't necessarily be precisely defined. Since that's true of everyone I know I'd be inclined to believe that of you as well even though you're a stranger. No one is saying that that something has to be earth-shattering or history-defining. Not everything worthwhile has to exist on such a grand scale. If you're drawn to this person as your favorite person, then it's likely he has a high opinion of you and is unlikely to agree that you're worthless scum. Death might in fact be the most humane option for you, but it won't be because you lack the right to exist.

You worded this beautifully. This is how I feel about myself relative to the world and also my suicide being the most humane way to handle my pain. Thank you for sharing this, I hope the words resonate with OP too.

 

[borderline-feline]

It's just hard to believe that you're as terrible as you say you are. Sure, people have flaws, people can be terrible assholes, but you're basically saying that you are Satan. I second the opinion that you can't be as bad as you say if you feel remorse. It takes a whole lot to deserve to die because of your character and actions and while you may have sound reasons to CTB it's hard to agree that it's because of your character. Which is fine because you don't need anyone's agreement, but if you say you do it's not likely you'll get it...

I just got the urge to physically assault a stranger because of something she said. If it had been said to my face, then I would've assaulted her. Now will you accept that I'm objectively a bad person?

I'm not capable of controlling my anger, therefore my birth was a mistake, and I should've been aborted.

You worded this beautifully. This is how I feel about myself relative to the world and also my suicide being the most humane way to handle my pain. Thank you for sharing this, I hope the words resonate with OP too.

I'm glad that what they said resonated with you, but it just made me worse since I know it's not true.

 

[LastFlowers]

This is probably gonna sound weird initially, but it'll make sense with some explanation. I mentioned this metaphor in a previous thread when talking about a conversation I had with my favorite person. I'm venting, but I would like some advice on convincing people if anyone has an idea for how to show others that I'm worthless.

For those unfamiliar with the metaphor I'm talking about, there's this anime called Fruits Basket. The Protagonist of Fruits Basket, Honda Tōru, says to a friend of hers:
"If a person is a rice ball, and what's great about the person is a pickled plum, then maybe your plum is on your back. Maybe everyone in the world has plums on their backs of all different shapes, colors, and sizes. But since they can't see their backs, they can't see the plums they have. They think they don't have anything--that they're just plain white rice. Even though it's not true at all--even though they really do have a plum there. Maybe the reason we get jealous of others is because other people's backs are easy to see."

I think Tōru's idea is completely off the mark. My favorite person said to me during a conversation/argument "The plum is on your fucking back", but I don't think that I have a plum. Not every rice ball can have a plum, just like not every person has skills, abilities, potential, or a purpose.

It feels so dismissive to say that EVERYONE has a plum, and it really just comes across as toxic positivity. There's literally nothing that I can do right, yet the world tries to manipulate me into believing otherwise with words of "encouragement" that end up as nothing more than mere platitudes.

Why do people genuinely seem to believe such an asinine statement as "nobody is worthless"? Other people refuse to accept that I objectively know myself better than they could ever possibly know me. Even my favorite person believes the lie about every rice ball having a plum. Human life doesn't have inherent value, at least no more than any other form of life, including bacteria.

I would barely qualify as a rice ball, so why would it be so strange for me to not have a plum? Is there a way to convince people of the reality that I have no plum, or will people always just hold onto a belief that has no basis in reality? Are people just so absorbed by toxic positivity that they've blinded themselves to the reality that some people just have no value?

I think it's a silly metaphor too, doesn't come with much substance. Just sounds cutesy.
(Was that in the original FB? I don't remember it..)
Trust me, most who spew these types of statements are well aware that they're being disingenuous.
Besides, if the person using it is supposed to be undermining the reasons as to why one would be envious of another, there is a biased motivation already at play.
This is "just-world fallacy" levels of superficial/ ridiculous.
Some people get lucky and have plums pressed into them by life, circumstance, genetics etc.
Others don't.
Maybe some people had one, or more..and it all turned to rot.
Maybe some plums were ripped out of their rice ball bodies, or maybe these rice ball bodies never had them to begin with.

I can't speak to whether your own lack of worth rings true or not..
But if anyone ever used that line on me, and I knew better, I would probably have the same reaction as an impoverished person being told by a wealthy individual that they (the impoverished) somehow got a million dollars lodged into their backside, if only they could fucking reach it.

 

[borderline-feline]

hey i just wanted to second this notion. i know it's sort of frowned upon by most of society, and there are plenty of relationships that (likely not openly admitting this) probably do have this dynamic. i often, too, wish i was desirable enough to be kept as someone's pet, preferably a person who was good to me and others. but most people who keep people as pets are usually abusive and inconsiderate of others and tend to be very hurtful and quick to abandon.

even if it an unhealthy ideal, it would be nice if it was feasible to just be taken care of be told what to do. but people often tire of this dynamic quickly as well unless it's fulfilling a part of their life that they aren't addressing themselves very well.

I want to be treated like a housecat. I want strict rules and to be kept in a cage under the bed at night or if I'm bad. I want my finances 100% controlled. I want to be treated like I'm not human.

I want everything decided and controlled for me. If I disobey my master, then I want to be beaten or even euthanized . I want my humanity completely stripped from me.

I'd never treat a cat that harshly, but even still. I want a collar put around my neck, and I want food to be the only thing I ever have any choice in. It's not a sexual thing for me; I just shouldn't be treated like a human. I should've been aborted.

I don't really fully qualify as a person, so I don't want to be treated like one.

I need to be controlled because I can't control myself.

I think it's a silly metaphor too, doesn't come with much substance. Just sounds cutesy.
(Was that in the original FB? I don't remember it..)
Trust me, most who spew these types of statements are well aware that they're being disingenuous.
Besides, if the person using it is supposed to be undermining the reasons as to why one would be envious of another, there is a biased motivation already at play.
This is "just-world fallacy" levels of superficial/ ridiculous.
Some people get lucky and have plums pressed into them by life, circumstance, genetics etc.
Others don't.
Maybe some people had one, or more..and it all turned to rot.
Maybe some plums were ripped out of their rice ball bodies, or maybe these rice ball bodies never had them to begin with.

I can't speak to whether your own lack of worth rings true or not..
But if anyone ever used that line on me, and I knew better, I would probably have the same reaction as an impoverished person being told by a wealthy individual that they (the impoverished) somehow got a million dollars lodged into their backside, if only they could fucking reach it.

I hate that people are so married to the idea that no one is worthless. Some people objectively are. I don't even understand why people see suicide as an inherently bad thing.

I should've never been born.

 

[LastFlowers]

i don't know exactly what it is that you do that makes you a bad person, but i want to offer the perspective that lots of people who are genuinely bad people (people who steal,

Sorry to pick this out, but do you really consider thieves to be genuinely bad people, out of all the more horrible things that would come to mind?
Unless you mean those who steal personal, sentimental priceless items from an individual..?

Maybe you're just listing it casually but I've always been taken aback by the fact that so many people seem to treat theft as if it's as bad as murder or something.
I've known people who thought so and boy oh boy..they were not nice people, hypocrites at the very least.
(Not implying that of you, but I have always found it odd.)
I've also seen even suspected thievery used as an excuse to berate, insult, demean said suspect.
Always hit a nerve with me, as we don't exactly live in a fair society where everyone receives good job opportunities or the means to live a quality life.
Sometimes you have to steal to get by.

(Apologies for going off on that tangent, but your comment called back my thoughts about it.)

It's just hard to believe that you're as terrible as you say you are. Sure, people have flaws, people can be terrible assholes, but you're basically saying that you are Satan. I second the opinion that you can't be as bad as you say if you feel remorse. It takes a whole lot to deserve to die because of your character and actions and while you may have sound reasons to CTB it's hard to agree that it's because of your character. Which is fine because you don't need anyone's agreement, but if you say you do it's not likely you'll get it...

To be fair, most horrible people would fail to meet the bar that the image of Satan tends to represent.
I don't think OP painted themselves to that height, anyhow.

Remorse is good, but something has to come of it. Can't just be remorse for remorse's sake, without change.

Idk OP or what their exact issues are, I'm still not entirely sure what is meant by "favorite person" nor do I relate to the desire to be a controlled pet (imo, a nightmare)…but I actually think more people should reflect on some of the points OP has made, because they're not wrong to be self critical.

It's also true that if someone already favors you for unrelated reasons, they are going to more easily forgive and trivialize the bad, while exaggerating or fabricating the good.
This is especially true in romantic relationships, although I am not certain of which nature OP's relationship to this person is.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I'm glad that what they said resonated with you, but it just made me worse since I know it's not true.

I'm sorry what I said made you feel worse; that wasn't my intention of course. I had a different perspective on the subject that I wanted to share, but you know yourself best and I know no stranger is going to change your opinion of yourself. I hate myself too and no one could eliminate that feeling. It's just really saddening that you feel that way about yourself but many people contemplating CTB do feel this way about themselves. It's still true that you don't need anyone's permission to CTB and if your decision to CTB hinges on obtaining it then you might never be able to CTB.

To be fair, most horrible people would fail to meet the bar that the image of Satan tends to represent.
I don't think OP painted themselves to that height, anyhow.

Remorse is good, but something has to come of it. Can't just be remorse for remorse's sake, without change.

OP says that they deserve to die because of their character; in other words they're a monster. That's a big claim that calls for at least a little skepticism. Having certain thoughts or desires doesn't in my opinion put someone on that level. On the topic of thieves my brother and I used to have a friend who stole valuable heirlooms from almost our entire family and got away with it with zero legal and social consequences. Even then I don't think I would say she deserves to die though if she did I wouldn't grieve. You're right that remorse can be cheap without action but we're talking about the mere presence of it. The worst people around don't give a sIngle shit that they caused harm.

 

[borderline-feline]

I'm sorry what I said made you feel worse; that wasn't my intention of course. I had a different perspective on the subject that I wanted to share, but you know yourself best and I know no stranger is going to change your opinion of yourself. I hate myself too and no one could eliminate that feeling. It's just really saddening that you feel that way about yourself but many people contemplating CTB do feel this way about themselves. It's still true that you don't need anyone's permission to CTB and if your decision to CTB hinges on obtaining it then you might never be able to CTB.


OP says that they deserve to die because of their character; in other words they're a monster. That's a big claim that calls for at least a little skepticism. Having certain thoughts or desires doesn't in my opinion put someone on that level. On the topic of thieves my brother and I used to have a friend who stole valuable heirlooms from almost our entire family and got away with it with zero legal and social consequences. Even then I don't think I would say she deserves to die though if she did I wouldn't grieve. You're right that remorse can be cheap without action but we're talking about the mere presence of it. The worst people around don't give a single shit that they caused harm.

I didn't think that it was your intention to make m feel worse; I guess I should've clarified that.

When I say that I need permission, I mean that my life isn't my own. As my username would suggest, I have borderline personality disorder, and one of the hallmark symptoms of BPD is an intense fear of abandonment. People with BPD may also become particularly obsessive about a select person or a couple of select people. The object of this obsession is known as a "favorite person".

I had a meltdown one day that involved saying that I was going to kill myself, and I was terrified by how my favorite person reacted. He was really upset and afraid that I would actually do it, going so far as to say that he felt like he failed me because he couldn't "make me happy". I explained to him that he didn't fail me and that I failed myself.

I panicked because I was afraid that he'd be tired of my bullshit and leave me, so I promised him that I wouldn't self-harm or end my life. Because of that promise, I don't have ownership over my life; I signed it over to him. I can't emotionally handle the thought of hurting my favorite person. On top of that, what if I tried and failed? Irrational as the thought may be, I can't rule out the possibility that he'd leave me for breaking that promise.

He's all I really have. He's my world. He's my everything. I can't function without him. I haven't asked him for permission to catch the bus, because I know that he'd say no. He's far stronger than I am, whether he realizes just how weak I am or not. I'm a pathetic coward that doesn't even have the guts to end my life.

I don't think that I'm comparable to the worst people. The worst people are people like Hitler and Stalin, y'know, genocidal maniacs who caused the deaths of tens of millions of people. I am, however, not a good person. It's only a matter of time before the particular trigger that got me earlier today is said by someone IRL. If that happens, then I won't be able to control myself and will likely punch them directly in the face. Would you accept the assertion that I'm a bad person if I actually physically assaulted someone over mere words that realistically shouldn't bother me as much as they do?

I question whether or not I support the death penalty in practice, especially since I don't really know what I truly believe about most things, but I would say that assaulting or even killing someone over words absolutely warrants such a punishment.

I don't even think I would have any regret about it beyond the fact that I'd be thrown in jail, because in my broken mind, that person would deserve it. No logical, well-adjusted individual would agree with my warped morality though. I'm not capable of controlling myself when I get really angry, so I live in fear that if I get angry enough, then I might end up killing someone. I can excuse assaulting someone over words (hence why I think I'm a bad person), but I don't know if I would be able to rationalize killing someone in that rage. There's only one way to find out if I could rationalize it, and I would prefer not to do that. The thought that I'm a terrible person also isn't the only (or even primary) reason why I want to catch the bus.

I want to get rid of the pain from that particular trigger, but I don't want to lose any of the anger or sadness that it causes me. As insane as it sounds, and it would sound crazier if you knew the context, it would feel like a betrayal if that stopped being a genuine trigger for me, and I can't handle that. I'm not really comfortable with going into detail about that particular trigger because I can barely take it seriously when I say anything about it, so I don't expect other people to be able to take it seriously; talking about it just results in people telling me to "grow up" and "get over it", which I can't exactly do.

All that I can really say about that trigger is that it relates to how obsessive I am, but it doesn't relate to my favorite person. I can't go further into detail because I've already been harassed by people for being open about it.

Sorry to pick this out, but do you really consider thieves to be genuinely bad people, out of all the more horrible things that would come to mind?
Unless you mean those who steal personal, sentimental priceless items from an individual..?

Maybe you're just listing it casually but I've always been taken aback by the fact that so many people seem to treat theft as if it's as bad as murder or something.
I've known people who thought so and boy oh boy..they were not nice people, hypocrites at the very least.
(Not implying that of you, but I have always found it odd.)
I've also seen even suspected thievery used as an excuse to berate, insult, demean said suspect.
Always hit a nerve with me, as we don't exactly live in a fair society where everyone receives good job opportunities or the means to live a quality life.
Sometimes you have to steal to get by.

(Apologies for going off on that tangent, but your comment called back my thoughts about it.)

To be fair, most horrible people would fail to meet the bar that the image of Satan tends to represent.
I don't think OP painted themselves to that height, anyhow.

Remorse is good, but something has to come of it. Can't just be remorse for remorse's sake, without change.

Idk OP or what their exact issues are, I'm still not entirely sure what is meant by "favorite person" nor do I relate to the desire to be a controlled pet (imo, a nightmare)…but I actually think more people should reflect on some of the points OP has made, because they're not wrong to be self critical.

It's also true that if someone already favors you for unrelated reasons, they are going to more easily forgive and trivialize the bad, while exaggerating or fabricating the good.
This is especially true in romantic relationships, although I am not certain of which nature OP's relationship to this person is.

I don't really see Satan as a villainous figure, but that's probably just a result of me being a LaVeyan Satanist. I don't believe in gods or devils and instead see Satan as a symbol of rebellion. That's not necessarily relevant though.

I explained it in another comment in this thread, but I'm more than happy to explain what a "favorite person" is.

"Favorite person" is a term that comes up a lot when talking about borderline personality disorder, which I have. There is usually one of two people that we [people with BPD] absolutely idolize and want to spend all of our time with, and if they are busy and can't spend time with us, then we tend to get angry and feel abandoned. My favorite person is indeed my boyfriend (and hopefully future husband).

I avoid referring to my favorite person as my boyfriend on here, because it sounds worse if I say that my life belongs to my boyfriend than if I use the term "favorite person". If I don't explicitly state the romantic nature of my relationship with him, then people are less likely to take things the wrong way and get concerned.

In the past, I had a favorite person who I saw as a brother. Well, after my abusive ex-girlfriend drove a wedge between us and fucked up his life, we parted ways because it was partially my fault that he got screwed over. When that happened, I was completely empty. I was devastated, but I became very close with my current favorite person, and he and I have been in a romantic relationship for over a year now.

The idea of hurting my favorite person makes me want to die, and I've caused him pain as it is. He says that I overestimate how much I hurt and upset him, but it still makes me feel like a terrible person. The only reason I'm still alive is that I made a promise to him that I wouldn't end my life or self-harm. I regret making that promise, but my life doesn't belong to me, so I can't catch the bus without permission.

I need him, and I want to be his cat; I already have the catgirl aesthetic. I want to be controlled because I can't control myself and because I can't handle responsibility. I'm completely unstable in terms of emotions and identity, which is why I don't think I can be accurately called a person. I want to completely sign my life away to him and be nothing but a pet. As it is, I gravitate toward men who treat me like a daughter (which I also want). I want to be kept to a strict schedule with no choices in my life aside from what and when I eat. I want to be put in a cage when I misbehave, and I want to be treated like a princess when I'm a good girl and do what my master wants me to do. I want him to be in full control of my bank account, what clothing I wear, when I can leave the house, etc. Sadly, this isn't something that he wants, so it's never gonna happen.

I should mention that this isn't a sexual thing for me; I just have major issues that I don't think can be solved.


Also, to answer your previous question about Fruits Basket, I haven't read the manga and barely remember the 2001 anime since I didn't grow up with it, so I don't know if the rice ball metaphor was in the original, but I think it was. I never got into the series until the 2019 anime.