EddieAllenPoe

EddieAllenPoe

Specialist
Mar 19, 2019
304
I spent my day today helping a man haul rocks from one point to another. It absolutely sucked balls. Ever have one of those days? I've spent several months in a row being unemployed. That has also not been fun. I actually hate doing physical labor but I supposed I'm grateful to be doing something that's productive. I've found that spending a whole day doing nothing can be equally terrible. Especially if you haven't done anything productive for months. I suppose my day wasn't actually so bad.

During the time I was shoveling rocks I was listening to a video produced by Saddleback Church. While listening to the video I had noticed that the Pastor of this church would frequently talk about certain topics as if they had an actual basis in reality. Things such as "sin" or an invisible being he called "satan". I'm not really concerned so much with whether these things actually exist in a literal sense. That's a different topic. I simply found it interesting that he was able to effortlessly use these ideas to talk about other topics that I do know are real. Things such as suffering, being "unfulfilled" in life, or being unhappy. After all, I can't see unhappiness with my eyes. But I do know unhappiness exists.

This lead me to think about other things. Being outside I couldn't help but notice the budding plant life. It's almost summertime where I am and I can see new plants popping up everywhere. Some of these plants are hidden in shaded areas and their growth is stunted. Other plants have easier access to sunlight and they seem to be growing rapidly. I could even see how some of the plants that started out in shaded areas grew outwardly in a crooked manner to reach the sunlight.

How do plants manage to react to sunlight without seeing it? They obviously don't have eyes like I do. I can see the sunlight with my own eyes. I know the reason they grow the way they do because I can literally see the reason. They're trying to reach the sunlight. If plants can't see the sun then does it mean they are actually blind? It would seem they are somehow perceiving the sunlight without using vision. Scientists have actually studied this phenomenon before. They call this ability of plants to find sunlight phototropism.

Seeing the plants react to the sunlight made me reflect on the nature of invisible things. Are there things that are invisible to me that actually do exist? Humans seem to be a little bit more complicated than plants. We have fantastic imaginations and we're able to construct elaborate stories about things which are not real. Not everything we talk about that is invisible is fake though. So how do we know what is real? Do invisible things exist?

This certainly isn't an exhaustive list but here are a few invisible things to consider:

  1. Morality. A sense that some behaviors are "right" and some behaviors are "wrong".
  2. Beauty. A sense that some things are "beautiful" and some things are "ugly".
  3. Happiness. A sense that some people are "happy" and some people are "sad".
  4. Love. A sense that some people are "loving" and some people are "hateful".
  5. Justice. A sense that some things are "fair" and some things are "unjust".
  6. Numbers. A belief that reality can be quantified. Some numbers are literally difficult to prove exist. Numbers such as "zero", "infinity", or irrational numbers such as "Pi".
I suppose this list could grow into even more abstract topics. In another post @weargon said he'd attend my Noble Peace Prize meeting if I could prove the existence of a few certain things. I've taken his suggestion seriously and have decided to reflect on a few of them. Thank you @weargon .

7. Chakras. In some ancient Hindu mystic traditions (such as Kundalini) it speculated that we have invisible hidden energy centers in our soul. Some of these "chakras" align with physical locations on our body. The most interesting one I can think of as an example might be the "heart chakra". When two people fall in love they often describe having feelings that are based in their heart.

Based on what I know from science I have difficulty believing the heart organ is somehow literally responsible for these feelings. However, I wouldn't simply dismiss the "heart chakra" as being imaginary. Sometimes it is actually possible to ignore the reality of something by incorrectly interpreting data in a literal sense.

It's interesting to note that in Hebrew traditions they refer to the "heart" with the word "Lev". It would seem both Hindu and Jewish cultures have identified the existence of something that you cannot literally see that originates in the "heart". This "heart" they are referring to seems to exist in a poetic sense.

Attempts have been made to use science to understand how "love" happens. As an example, it was found that the chemical oxytocin is linked to the ability of two mammals to form a bond. Is this information always useful though? It seems obvious to me it isn't. Describing the world with chemicals doesn't seem to describe the same kind of reality. You wouldn't say: "Hey Mom, it's Mother's Day. I wanted to thank you for emitting oxytocin to solidify our bond." It doesn't really have the same ring to it. You would be better off talking "from the heart".

8. Hope. This is a good one. You can't see hope. Does it exist? It certainly does seem there are many people out in the world talking about hope. Where does a person find it?
9. Memes. The idea of a "meme" is described in detail in the book "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Dawkins argued that a meme was an intellectual idea that shared many properties similar to genetic material you might find in a biological cell. Though the evidence for a "meme" is sparse, I did find his arguments for it's existence persuasive.
10. Ghosts. I'm not personally convinced of this one. The stories people tell about ghosts seems fake to me. I've simply never seen a ghost. Could I be wrong about their existence?
11. Angels. This is about as evident to me as ghosts. I have had experiences of freakish "good luck" that prevented what should have been terrible accidents. It's made me wonder about the possibility of angels. I've never actually seen one though. Do you think they exist?

My list of invisible things could go on and on. I'm sure some of you can think of things I haven't.

Do you think it's possible there are invisible things that exist that aren't outwardly observable?

I'd be curious to hear about other invisible things you have considered before. I'd also love to hear your reasons for believing they exist and what evidences you might have for them.
 
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Kyrok

Kyrok

Paragon
Nov 6, 2018
970
We have ideas. We cooperate on constructing and regulating those ideas. Beauty, justice, numbers, etc are ideas. The same goes for dragons, angels and unicorns. Arguably horses don't exist, though particular creatures which we call horses exist. "Horse" is a concept we use to divide up particular objects.
 
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ShadowOfTheDay

ShadowOfTheDay

Hungry Ghost
Feb 14, 2019
331
I spent my day today helping a man haul rocks from one point to another. It absolutely sucked balls. Ever have one of those days? I've spent several months in a row being unemployed. That has also not been fun. I actually hate doing physical labor but I supposed I'm grateful to be doing something that's productive. I've found that spending a whole day doing nothing can be equally terrible. Especially if you haven't done anything productive for months. I suppose my day wasn't actually so bad.

During the time I was shoveling rocks I was listening to a video produced by Saddleback Church. While listening to the video I had noticed that the Pastor of this church would frequently talk about certain topics as if they had an actual basis in reality. Things such as "sin" or an invisible being he called "satan". I'm not really concerned so much with whether these things actually exist in a literal sense. That's a different topic. I simply found it interesting that he was able to effortlessly use these ideas to talk about other topics that I do know are real. Things such as suffering, being "unfulfilled" in life, or being unhappy. After all, I can't see unhappiness with my eyes. But I do know unhappiness exists.

This lead me to think about other things. Being outside I couldn't help but notice the budding plant life. It's almost summertime where I am and I can see new plants popping up everywhere. Some of these plants are hidden in shaded areas and their growth is stunted. Other plants have easier access to sunlight and they seem to be growing rapidly. I could even see how some of the plants that started out in shaded areas grew outwardly in a crooked manner to reach the sunlight.

How do plants manage to react to sunlight without seeing it? They obviously don't have eyes like I do. I can see the sunlight with my own eyes. I know the reason they grow the way they do because I can literally see the reason. They're trying to reach the sunlight. If plants can't see the sun then does it mean they are actually blind? It would seem they are somehow perceiving the sunlight without using vision. Scientists have actually studied this phenomenon before. They call this ability of plants to find sunlight phototropism.

Seeing the plants react to the sunlight made me reflect on the nature of invisible things. Are there things that are invisible to me that actually do exist? Humans seem to be a little bit more complicated than plants. We have fantastic imaginations and we're able to construct elaborate stories about things which are not real. Not everything we talk about that is invisible is fake though. So how do we know what is real? Do invisible things exist?

This certainly isn't an exhaustive list but here are a few invisible things to consider:

  1. Morality. A sense that some behaviors are "right" and some behaviors are "wrong".
  2. Beauty. A sense that some things are "beautiful" and some things are "ugly".
  3. Happiness. A sense that some people are "happy" and some people are "sad".
  4. Love. A sense that some people are "loving" and some people are "hateful".
  5. Justice. A sense that some things are "fair" and some things are "unjust".
  6. Numbers. A belief that reality can be quantified. Some numbers are literally difficult to prove exist. Numbers such as "zero", "infinity", or irrational numbers such as "Pi".
I suppose this list could grow into even more abstract topics. In another post @weargon said he'd attend my Noble Peace Prize meeting if I could prove the existence of a few certain things. I've taken his suggestion seriously and have decided to reflect on a few of them. Thank you @weargon .

7. Chakras. In some ancient Hindu mystic traditions (such as Kundalini) it speculated that we have invisible hidden energy centers in our soul. Some of these "chakras" align with physical locations on our body. The most interesting one I can think of as an example might be the "heart chakra". When two people fall in love they often describe having feelings that are based in their heart.

Based on what I know from science I have difficulty believing the heart organ is somehow literally responsible for these feelings. However, I wouldn't simply dismiss the "heart chakra" as being imaginary. Sometimes it is actually possible to ignore the reality of something by incorrectly interpreting data in a literal sense.

It's interesting to note that in Hebrew traditions they refer to the "heart" with the word "Lev". It would seem both Hindu and Jewish cultures have identified the existence of something that you cannot literally see that originates in the "heart". This "heart" they are referring to seems to exist in a poetic sense.

Attempts have been made to use science to understand how "love" happens. As an example, it was found that the chemical oxytocin is linked to the ability of two mammals to form a bond. Is this information always useful though? It seems obvious to me it isn't. Describing the world with chemicals doesn't seem to describe the same kind of reality. You wouldn't say: "Hey Mom, it's Mother's Day. I wanted to thank you for emitting oxytocin to solidify our bond." It doesn't really have the same ring to it. You would be better off talking "from the heart".

8. Hope. This is a good one. You can't see hope. Does it exist? It certainly does seem there are many people out in the world talking about hope. Where does a person find it?
9. Memes. The idea of a "meme" is described in detail in the book "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Dawkins argued that a meme was an intellectual idea that shared many properties similar to genetic material you might find in a biological cell. Though the evidence for a "meme" is sparse, I did find his arguments for it's existence persuasive.
10. Ghosts. I'm not personally convinced of this one. The stories people tell about ghosts seems fake to me. I've simply never seen a ghost. Could I be wrong about their existence?
11. Angels. This is about as evident to me as ghosts. I have had experiences of freakish "good luck" that prevented what should have been terrible accidents. It's made me wonder about the possibility of angels. I've never actually seen one though. Do you think they exist?

My list of invisible things could go on and on. I'm sure some of you can think of things I haven't.

Do you think it's possible there are invisible things that exist that aren't outwardly observable?

I'd be curious to hear about other invisible things you have considered before. I'd also love to hear your reasons for believing they exist and what evidences you might have for them.
Yes, I believe there are many things which exist that we do not see. In fact, I think it is safe to assume that most things which exist are invisible to the human eye--after all, the universe was not created for our amusement.

With regard to immaterial objects, I would say this: You do not have to be religious or superstitious to believe in the existence of immaterial things. Many prominent, nonreligious philosophers believe in a sort of dualism--in which immaterial objects like numbers can be said to "exist." There is nothing supernatural or spectacular about this belief. It is just one of several different ways of understanding the world.
 
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Kyrok

Kyrok

Paragon
Nov 6, 2018
970
Let's not forget that we are among the invisible things which exist. My body may be visible, but not my thoughts or self-awareness.

Oh, matter also is not visible. After all, what does matter itself look like?
 
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ShadowOfTheDay

ShadowOfTheDay

Hungry Ghost
Feb 14, 2019
331
Let's not forget that we are among the invisible things which exist. My body may be visible, but not my thoughts or self-awareness.

Oh, matter also is not visible. After all, what does matter itself look like?
What is matter? Never mind.
What is mind? No matter.
 
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Kyrok

Kyrok

Paragon
Nov 6, 2018
970
What is matter? Never mind.
What is mind? No matter.
ll8qfv.gif

"Brain and brain, what is brain?"
 
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weargon

weargon

Experienced
Apr 20, 2019
201
10811

You listed a bunch of vague terms and emotions, they are not things. Chemistry, neural science, and evolutionary/genetic sciences have explained all those things. Maybe try reading a book?

Chakras don't exist, neither do ghosts, or angels. If you can find any proof that they exist, go claim all the huge financial prizes that are always available for such evidence. Then that will help with your unemployment and you won't have to shovel rocks any more.
 
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Bärchen

Bärchen

Distracting myself through Life
Apr 7, 2019
202
Me, to women.
 
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Nullm

Nullm

Student
Apr 5, 2019
133
Most of what you are describing is words and they exist when ppl pronounce them
Usually they point to coherant things
When ppl began using the language for lies
This is when invisible stuff began to exist
In the meantime you got dark matter and dark energy
 
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weargon

weargon

Experienced
Apr 20, 2019
201
Most of what you are describing is words and they exist when ppl pronounce them
Usually they point to coherant things
When ppl began using the language for lies
This is when invisible stuff began to exist
In the meantime you got dark matter and dark energy
Haha! Well put!
 
S

SomebodyBroken

Experienced
May 6, 2019
208
View attachment 10811

You listed a bunch of vague terms and emotions, they are not things. Chemistry, neural science, and evolutionary/genetic sciences have explained all those things. Maybe try reading a book?

Chakras don't exist, neither do ghosts, or angels. If you can find any proof that they exist, go claim all the huge financial prizes that are always available for such evidence. Then that will help with your unemployment and you won't have to shovel rocks any more.
and who said that the public will be told about such things? people can not normally exist with the "elect" who can do what we can not. and chakra or something else .. maybe there is, but not for pragmatic people ..I can not believe what I do not see or do not feel. this is from the category of religion is already ...
 
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EddieAllenPoe

EddieAllenPoe

Specialist
Mar 19, 2019
304
View attachment 10811

You listed a bunch of vague terms and emotions, they are not things. Chemistry, neural science, and evolutionary/genetic sciences have explained all those things. Maybe try reading a book?

Chakras don't exist, neither do ghosts, or angels. If you can find any proof that they exist, go claim all the huge financial prizes that are always available for such evidence. Then that will help with your unemployment and you won't have to shovel rocks any more.

I see you managed to use science words. I'm really impressed. What exactly was the "all that" your high priests of science proved? Science doesn't work that way bud. It's not a religion. There are limits to it's methods. They may teach it that way in a government ran communist block, but the rest of the educated free world won't simply point to a book and say "that book proves it". I don't think you can really appreciate what I mean by that. Science HAS NOT figured out A LOT. I don't actually need to prove it to you but I've been through college and I've read a lot of these science books you're vaguely referencing. You need to learn to think for yourself. The only thing you're proving to me is that you have an irrational hatred for religion and you live life in an insulated narcissistic mind. You have to attack every religious idea you come across because... news flash... you never actually took the time to understand it. Big surprise? Not at all to me. I don't think you can even appreciate how vague it is to go around saying you have a "secular" worldview. What the fuck does that actually even mean? Who defines that one? It sounds like the type of bullshit a state ran government would tell it's citizens with guns to their head. That's not thinking. That's having no culture and being brainwashed.
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Music.

I believe music is an angel that would save the world, if only the world wanted to be saved.
 
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weargon

weargon

Experienced
Apr 20, 2019
201
I see you managed to use science words. I'm really impressed. What exactly was the "all that" your high priests of science proved? Science doesn't work that way bud. It's not a religion. There are limits to it's methods. They may teach it that way in a government ran communist block, but the rest of the educated free world won't simply point to a book and say "that book proves it". I don't think you can really appreciate what I mean by that. Science HAS NOT figured out A LOT. I don't actually need to prove it to you but I've been through college and I've read a lot of these science books you're vaguely referencing. You need to learn to think for yourself. The only thing you're proving to me is that you have an irrational hatred for religion and you live life in an insulated narcissistic mind. You have to attack every religious idea you come across because... news flash... you never actually took the time to understand it. Big surprise? Not at all to me. I don't think you can even appreciate how vague it is to go around saying you have a "secular" worldview. What the fuck does that actually even mean? Who defines that one? It sounds like the type of bullshit a state ran government would tell it's citizens with guns to their head. That's not thinking. That's having no culture and being brainwashed.

Yeah, science doesn't work that way indeed, it has limits because if there's something that can't be answered through science, it's set aside until it can. Instead of creating some kind of bs lala land stories that are based on archaic beliefs from people who thought lightning was an act of god and people only got sick because they did something bad.

You have not been through college or read anything. Don't humor me. You shovel rocks and can't even get a job.

Re-read your post when you calm down, maybe take a break from the heat and rock shoveling, and realize how stupid it sounds.
 
About_to_Go

About_to_Go

It deepens like a coastal shelf
Mar 20, 2018
303
Tbh I didn't read the entire op but this thread reminds me of the end of this video lol. (Btw, I don't agree with the awful things Louis CK did, but I do enjoy his comedy)
 
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