Story Different cultural views on suicide

[kitia973]

This is just a few recollections of my past years living in China as well as some of the people I've met there. We both shared similar thoughts on suicide and death, and I find it interesting how the views on suicide there were drastically different from the ones in the West.

I spent most of my childhood in the US, and I went to China two years ago. I studied at a mediocre school and was placed into a very mediocre class. None of my classmates particularlly excelled at academics, and I soon became one of the top students of my class. (It was not very hard. Most people were failing.) Social circles were not rigidly defined at my school, and there were top students who often hung out and made friends with failing students or students that never even went to school. I was one of them.

A few months into my school year, I met a girl through WeChat. She was in the same class as me, but had I never met her before because she never attended school. She, along with a few others in the grade, was taking an extended leave at home due to severe mental illness. She was a very kind person, and we eventually became close with each other. I remeber we both discussed the topic of suicide one day, and I found it surprising how easy it was to talk about the subject with her; she made no attempt to contact any other people and did not offer the superficial "help" and the pro-life views that Westerners love to impose on people. We were both suicidal, albeit for different reasons, but I found it extremely comforting to talk to someone that accepts suicide as a way to end the unnessasary suffering of life.

Now that I think of it, most of my close friends are indeed mentally ill and suicidal for wildly different reasons. But we found support in each other. Those who were "normal" did not try to force their beliefs on us either, but rather just left us alone and unbothered. I believe there is a word in Chinese called 价值观, which translates to "moral values". It is acknowledged that no two people have the exact same values, and there is no specific value that is "right". So even though we wanted to die, we still at least felt respected.

Having moved back to the US recently due to family reasons, I now see the visible cultural difference on the topic of suicide. I struggled with the transition of environments, which had a devastating impact on my mental health and my academics. I once brought up that "I did not want to live" in my new school. That was a great mistake, which ended up in both my family and the authorities being contacted. Furthermore, the school refused to let me go home until someone at home confirmed that I was not in danger. The school made no attempt to ask for the reason why I wanted to die, nor did they try to provide any kind of emotional support. Absolutely ridiculous; instead of understanding I received a threat of involutary hospitalization. How are suicidal people supposed to talk about their thoughts in a society like that?

I never brought up my suicidal thoughts again, and neither did I try to seek the "help" that would only limit my personal freedoms. I do miss my old friends in China. If they do ever commit suicide, I will be joining them.



Anyway, have any of you lived in somewhere that had different cultural views on suicide? What do you think about the absolute failure of a mental health system the US has?

 

[柳贯一]

我没去美国，不是很清楚，但我看网站上的一些帖子都是表示"那帮人"对自杀这个话题回避如蛇蝎，可能涉及利益什么的。
我记得我之前说过的一个亲戚经历过一些学生跳楼自杀太傻了，也能够理解的吗，他们当年都再为生存而忙碌。
我之前也是有过"我不想活下去"的想法的，我变得自我封闭了，不再把自己的一些想法跟朋友说，不再寻求帮助和支持，尽管我知道要帮助的话伸伸手而已，很简单
对于活下去的看法呢，我是觉得去找一个人找一个值得你信赖，值得你为她/他贡献的人，找到独属于你的归属感（当然你们的关系是得平等的）
如果有机会我觉得你可以去找找你的老朋友，网上联络也是可以的（当然希望不要听到她自杀了的消息）

 

[kitia973]

我没去美国，不是很清楚，但我看网站上的一些帖子都是表示"那帮人"对自杀这个话题回避如蛇蝎，可能涉及利益什么的。
我记得我之前说过的一个亲戚经历过一些学生跳楼自杀太傻了，也能够理解的吗，他们当年都再为生存而忙碌。
我之前也是有过"我不想活下去"的想法的，我变得自我封闭了，不再把自己的一些想法跟朋友说，不再寻求帮助和支持，尽管我知道要帮助的话伸伸手而已，很简单
对于活下去的看法呢，我是觉得去找一个人找一个值得你信赖，值得你为她/他贡献的人，找到独属于你的归属感（当然你们的关系是得平等的）
如果有机会我觉得你可以去找找你的老朋友，网上联络也是可以的（当然希望不要听到她自杀了的消息）

我和我那些朋友一直保持微信联系的，他们现在状态还不错，不用担心
至于你说的"活下去"的理由，我也能理解。可是我们大部分人是在现实中找不到一个能够真正与自己有共鸣的人的，甚至连知心朋友都很难找到，更别说一个能够百分百信赖的人了。这也许是部分人来SS的原因吧：如果我们能在现实中能找到一个无条件接纳自己的地方，那么也不用来上网寻找理解和支持了。

现在确实也有很多青少年自杀，但大多数都是因为学习压力或者一瞬间的挫折。跳楼者中有很多是impulse suicide，而这个网站上所提供的一些方法都是需要细心的策划来避免失误的。"太傻了"可能只是你的亲戚对于一个年轻的生命结束的惋惜，而不是恶意的责备。（当然，这属于个人观点）

 

[melancholyvine]

我认为自杀是一个间接性的艺术
美国的心理咨询确实挺垃圾的，不仅贵而且也没用。
还是中国这方面做的好；以前我们学校里心理咨询都是免费的。
至于自杀吧，我也认为这是每一个人的自由权利。别人不应该干涉个体的自主选择。
甚至，我认为，如果一个人的存在成为了累赘，那么他的自杀后面将会有一定道理的。有时候选择死亡也是对自己和他人的一种尊重。

 

[EternalLight]

Western people have gone through almost two thousand years being taught that suicide is one of the absolute worst things a human being can do, such that those who carry out the act will receive a metaphysical spanking until the end of time. Even though the entities that taught such doctrines aren't as prominent anymore, their effects carry on in people's way of thinking to this day, leading to people being entirely unable to discuss the matter. In the past, the clergy dealt with troubled people, with methods like exorcism and execution, but now we have psychiatrists to chemically lobotomize us and act as an extralegal detainment force when we've had a little too much to think.

As for my own experience, I've only lived in majority ethnic European countries throughout my life, so my experience isn't as broad as yours. I'd say in English-speaking countries it has been the hardest to speak about it to the extent that it's not unlikely you'll find yourself forcibly detained if you do (but I can't speak for the US). In other places, people are often just uncomfortable with it and may ask if you're seeing a psychiatrist or something. For the most part, I find that it's mostly pointless to attempt to discuss it at all with others; the risk is just too high. It's a particularly private thing.

 

[kitia973]

Western people have gone through almost two thousand years being taught that suicide is one of the absolute worst things a human being can do, such that those who carry out the act will receive a metaphysical spanking until the end of time.

I remember studying history and learning how deeply suicide victims were shamed in the West, to the point that they were dragged through the city on their faces and denied a proper burial. Disgusting. This type of stigma revolving suicide is still prominient to this day, and I have no idea why some think that invalidating and dehumanizing others can make them less suicidal.

Things were different in ancient East Asia. You'd probably heard of Chinese or Japanese warriors ending their lives as a sign of honor and bravery. One of the most venerated heros in ancient China, Quyuan, threw himself into the Yangtze River out of despair. The people, having heard of his death, put rice balls into water to prevent the fish from eating his corpse as a sign of respect.

I couldn't imagine the shame he would have faced if he lived in the West instead.

 

[EternalLight]

I remember studying history and learning how deeply suicide victims were shamed in the West, to the point that they were dragged through the city on their faces and denied a proper burial. Disgusting. This type of stigma revolving suicide is still prominient to this day, and I have no idea why some think that invalidating and dehumanizing others can make them less suicidal.

The aim wasn't to make them less desiring of suicide but to induce guilt within them and those around them, as theirs was considered an act of rebellion against nature, the universal order. Conversely, in Eastern cultures, I suppose suicide was/is sometimes even necessary to avoid shame perceived as too great to bear. It seems that it wasn't necessarily offensive to 天 or the 道 but could even be considered a noble and appropriate thing to do at times. Although, I wonder what it's like nowadays for those with troubles who seek help in that part of the world.

As to why many still regard dehumanization as an appropriate means of dealing with those who consider suicide, of course there's the cultural legacy, but there also now exists a massive industry complex in place of the clergy that profits greatly from being the exclusive judges of the mind (psyche/soul) and maintaining an environment where regular people outsource their care and support.

Things were different in ancient East Asia. You'd probably heard of Chinese or Japanese warriors ending their lives as a sign of honor and bravery. One of the most venerated heros in ancient China, Quyuan, threw himself into the Yangtze River out of despair. The people, having heard of his death, put rice balls into water to prevent the fish from eating his corpse as a sign of respect.

That sounds beautiful. My knowledge of Chinese history is unfortunately lacking, so I appreciate it. By the way, there evidently exists a taboo about death in Chinese culture, as many people to this day avoid the number 4 where they can due to it sounding like 死 with a different tone, so I find it interesting that people are a little more open about suicide. How do you think these things relate if at all?

 

[kitia973]

Although, I wonder what it's like nowadays for those with troubles who seek help in that part of the world.

By the way, there evidently exists a taboo about death in Chinese culture, as many people to this day avoid the number 4 where they can due to it sounding like 死 with a different tone, so I find it interesting that people are a little more open about suicide. How do you think these things relate if at all?

I have a few friends in China with depression and other mental illnesses, and they regularly go the hospital to get medications. Healthcare is cheaper than it is in America. My school also provided a free therapist, so people who needed help could sign up for sessions once a week.

In China the number four is treated similarly as the number 13 in Western culture. It's not just about death, but rather as a curse and symbol of bad luck. Nowadays almost nobody believes in that and most people are not aware of that superstition anymore.

 

[柳贯一]

Chinese people tend to be quite superstitious. For example, they like to have auspicious numbers for train tickets and avoid phone numbers with "unlucky" digits. When I worked a part-time job last time, I noticed there were no tables numbered 4 or 14—it was obvious they were considered unlucky.

There's something called "educating the people." There's a story that says, in the past, after setting off fireworks, people wouldn't clean up and some would even throw trash into others' yards. Then, someone teaching the community said that cleaning up the debris after fireworks symbolizes good fortune. After that, everyone started sweeping up the mess in their own yards.

I think these beliefs about numbers probably come from old traditions passed down through generations.

This is just what I've heard, though—I'm not sure if it's true.
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