Discussion Creation and existence don't seem as perfect as they are supposed to be.

[GoSan1]

Another lonely night, imagining being in another world and having things I always wanted. So what better time than this to post another questioning post about existence?

People preach about creation being so perfect, whether religious or atheist, all those points leading up to this have been perfect! In biology, you were the sperm that made it and have been given life, while in religion and spiritualism, you have been granted a soul! But is that system truly that perfect? If life and evolution are such a great thing, how did humans never adapt to it? I mean we adapt to almost everything over time if we survive, so how come this isn't touched? Maybe some DNA is not made to live but is destined to suffer. Or as someone with 1% Christianity left in him, why would god create us when we would suffer and turn into monsters?

Another thing often said is that the world is "survival of the fittest". Ironically, the strong survive but scientists say even the universe will die out. Does that mean even the universe is weak? Then what truly does survive? I wouldn't call it survival of the fittest, but rather trampling over others for your own good. Is that such a perfect creation? I am not judging anyone, we all have terrible traits that make us look like monsters, but why is that?

I also dislike the thought of all of this being some kind of mental problem thing. So what is a mental, you say it's a brain but how can you know for sure? Doctors and scientists say those things, but their "finds" are just human-made assumptions about how things work. I still think that some humans are simply not made to live in such a world, but were meant to be in another one. Their pains and depression are a product of a failed creation into the wrong world. What if the soul suffers from that and the body therefor succumbs, creating health problems?

I do see creation as a wonderful thing, but when a mistake happens, it can quickly turn into hell.
I just hope we all find whatever we crave in the end.

Side note: Valentine's is coming up, and it's gonna make a lot of people lonely (myself included probably). See it as just another day, we suffer too much already.

Good night or day.

 

[Flightless Wings]

It's survival of the fittest. All the suffering in life is vestigial, like a tailbone or an appendix, of the universe mechanically churning away following only the laws of evolution and physics. There is so much suffering just because predation is a serviceable way to nourish a cell. And there's so much pain just to tell you not to get predated upon, to run away from adverse situations. There's so much pain inflicted just because it's pleasurable to have sex. But if sex weren't pleasurable, the species wouldn't survive so effectively. Trauma physically alters neurons to become more sensitive or dull. It's all mechanical coming down to 'what's effective' to collectively living longer.

As for whether this universe is weak -- it's hard to know without knowing how it started. That's ultimately a big mystery. This could be, comparatively speaking, a strong universe lasting longer than others, or the only universe. If it could reproduce, it'd be strong. But as it is it'll fall to entropy too.

 

[GoSan1]

It's survival of the fittest. All the suffering in life is vestigial, like a tailbone or an appendix, of the universe mechanically churning away following only the laws of evolution and physics.

But exactly that makes it so flawed.

There is so much suffering just because predation is a serviceable way to nourish a cell. And there's so much pain just to tell you not to get predated upon, to run away from adverse situations.

It is serviceable but not mandatory, thus making it not a problem of ourselves for falling slaves to selfishness. Fight or flight is often referred to as such moments, but what exactly is it besides a fight of adrenaline and fear? Survival instinct is said to keep a body alive, yet a brain can end itself and contradict the concept of the survival instinct. It's all entangled in unanswered questions and the complexity of creation.

There's so much pain inflicted just because it's pleasurable to have sex. But if sex weren't pleasurable, the species wouldn't survive so effectively. Trauma physically alters neurons to become more sensitive or dull. It's all mechanical coming down to 'what's effective' to collectively living longer.

This is my bias, you might be right or wrong, but it all comes up to opinion. I see sex and love as a much deeper thing than it is. But since I lack any romantical or sexual experience, I am unable to answer it besides that sex is what kept everything alive, besides maybe cells. But the neurons part is interesting since that alternation is supposedly not fully explainable, nor is it permanent. A brain can simply return to its former state before depression. This is why I doubt science with all my heart, it all is just a human-made assumption of what they can "explain" and can't. In the end, it's just what we believe to see...

As for whether this universe is weak -- it's hard to know without knowing how it started. That's ultimately a big mystery. This could be, comparatively speaking, a strong universe lasting longer than others, or the only universe. If it could reproduce, it'd be strong. But as it is it'll fall to entropy too.

The Universe isn't weak, its powerful, the concept was that if the strong survive then how can such a thing crumble as well? But that is one of many theories humans have created. Ah I'm too drained to continue, sorry lmao...

 

[LaVieEnRose]

The only thing that matters is that enough of a species lives to reproduce to sustain the species.

Even then that doesn't matter as extinctions have always happened and the world keeps on turning.

Naturally that kind of system leaves a whole lot of room for what we may consider "imperfections."

"Fittest" properly refers to reproductive success, not strength. The members of many species drop dead shortly after breeding.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

almost all animals died by being eaten alive by other animals, parasites, and or bacteria. A trillion trillion sentient animals died by being eaten alive tortured to Death.

i worked in a nursing home. it is possible for a human to get incurable skin sores and or dementia and they'll keep them alive for 30 years from age 60 to 90 suffering in constant unbearable pain. so that's even worse than 10 minutes of being eaten alive .

why haven't i heard these points anywhere? and many 1000's more ? why are they hiding the torture of life and that pain and suffering can be many times worse than people can imagine?

so they tell me i have to believe some thing created this torture dungeon on purpose for what reason to torture animals and humans which are animals too?

what is the purpose of life? there is none. mine is only to avoid unbearable pain and to exit this hell asap by my suicide to non-existence forever.

DNA based life was just an accident of chemistry , all a human is chemical reactions, a machine , an animal , cells , atoms. that's it'.

 

[GoSan1]

why haven't i heard these points anywhere? and many 1000's more ? why are they hiding the torture of life and that pain and suffering can be many times worse than people can imagine?

suffering in itself is complex, and not understood by anyone. Humans like to say they figured it out, but oh are they wrong. They just want to make themselves feel better for not having answers. It always has been like that,

so they tell me i have to believe some thing created this torture dungeon on purpose for what reason to torture animals and humans which are animals too?

That is true but contradicts itself when animals themselves torture each other. A lion eating a baby antelope, or maybe rhinos fighting each other out of territory. Even your so-loving dogs and cats fight and hurt each other. There's a nice case of "vegetarian" dogs being offered meat and fruit, and even after years of no meat, they always chose it. It's cruel, but this is where I hope that the soul logic comes into play, and while brutal, only humans have a soul. My way of thinking can be very flawed as even animals could have souls, but at least like that, I can feel better about it...

what is the purpose of life? there is none. mine is only to avoid unbearable pain and to exit this hell asap by my suicide to non-existence forever.

While there seems to be no purpose while alive, there is one key factor we can never know, and that's what comes after death. Maybe the purpose shows itself after death. Maybe death frees us from this test or hell? To blatantly stick to science when no one knows what death truly is beside the end of a body is not right.

I just hope that this all wasn't for nothing, even if we turn terrible, let us selfishly have what we ask for, because we also didn't choose to suffer.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Survival of the fittest doesn't refer to how strong you are. It refers to how well you are able to survive and reproduce in a particular environment. Basically, organisms that are best adapted to their environment are more likely to survive and reproduce compared to those that aren't. Along with that, you seem to view evolution as a process with a particular end goal in mind, but it isn't. Evolution does not care about creating perfect beings. Natural selection comes down to whether or not the (heritable) traits you possess aid in your survival and reproduction. It's not uncommon for useful traits to come with trade-offs and most of the traits we evolved with are only about as good as needed for survival and reproductive success. Hence why, for example, your perception isn't one-to-one with objective reality. Your brain utilizes heuristics when perceiving the world around it because our ancestors never faced any evolutionary pressure to have a perfect one-to-one perception of our environment.

An example of tradeoffs is with these mosquitoes found along the French coast. You see, they wanted to get people to come to this beach in France, so they used insecticide to kill off all of the mosquitoes in the area but what happened was that there was that a subset of that mosquito population survived and then continued to reproduce. It turned out that these mosquitos had a mutation at a locus referred to as ester, which encoded this ester enzyme called A1. This enzyme breaks down many toxins, including the ones they were using to kill off the mosquitos. In resistant mosquitos, this mutation (ester1) causes an increase in the production of esterase A1 through gene amplification, resulting in an increased resistance to toxins. However, there was a tradeoff. This mutation is an example of an antagonist pleiotrophy. A pleiotrophy refers to one gene that affects multiple traits and an antagonistic pleiotrophy refers to a gene that is beneficial but that also has detrimental effects on an organism. In this example, something that the scientists had noticed is that while the mutation is quite common amongst mosquitos living around the beach area it was significantly less common amongst more inland mosquitoes. What they found was that the increased production of esterase A1 had detrimental effects on their cholinergic system, interfering with those synapses and leading to them being more vulnerable to predation. This example basically is meant to highlight the fact that tradeoffs exist and that beneficial traits can sometimes have their downsides.

Also, humans have adapted. You and every other person here look the way they do because of evolution. Humans are actually quite good at adapting, otherwise we wouldn't be living all over the world in different climates. From us being bipedal to our brains and ways in which they differ from the brains of other animals, such as us possessing a larger prefrontal cortex, are all the result of evolutionary adaptations. We are never going to be perfect because perfection doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a perfect species. There are just species that are better adapted to their environment. I honestly have never seen any atheists claim that humans were perfect beings or anything along those lines. I've seen more atheists who have used our biological flaws as proof against those sorts of claims, tbh.

We aren't monsters, we are just animals. Humans are generally nowhere near as special as we like to make ourselves out to be. We possess some traits unique to our species, but so do other organisms.

Also, sorry if this post is a bit nonsensical. I have an exam in the afternoon and I am supposed to be studying for it so I'm kind of typing this all out in a rush.

 

[GoSan1]

Survival of the fittest doesn't refer to how strong you are. It refers to how well you are able to survive and reproduce in a particular environment. Basically, organisms that are best adapted to their environment are more likely to survive and reproduce compared to those that aren't. Along with that, you seem to view evolution as a process with a particular end goal in mind, but it isn't. Evolution does not care about creating perfect beings. Natural selection comes down to whether or not the (heritable) traits you possess aid in your survival and reproduction. It's not uncommon for useful traits to come with trade-offs and most of the traits we evolved with are only about as good as needed for survival and reproductive success. Hence why, for example, your perception isn't one-to-one with objective reality. Your brain utilizes heuristics when perceiving the world around it because our ancestors never faced any evolutionary pressure to have a perfect one-to-one perception of our environment.

An example of tradeoffs is with these mosquitoes found along the French coast. You see, they wanted to get people to come to this beach in France, so they used insecticide to kill off all of the mosquitoes in the area but what happened was that there was that a subset of that mosquito population survived and then continued to reproduce. It turned out that these mosquitos had a mutation at a locus referred to as ester, which encoded this ester enzyme called A1. This enzyme breaks down many toxins, including the ones they were using to kill off the mosquitos. In resistant mosquitos, this mutation (ester1) causes an increase in the production of esterase A1 through gene amplification, resulting in an increased resistance to toxins. However, there was a tradeoff. This mutation is an example of an antagonist pleiotrophy. A pleiotrophy refers to one gene that affects multiple traits and an antagonistic pleiotrophy refers to a gene that is beneficial but that also has detrimental effects on an organism. In this example, something that the scientists had noticed is that while the mutation is quite common amongst mosquitos living around the beach area it was significantly less common amongst more inland mosquitoes. What they found was that the increased production of esterase A1 had detrimental effects on their cholinergic system, interfering with those synapses and leading to them being more vulnerable to predation. This example basically is meant to highlight the fact that tradeoffs exist and that beneficial traits can sometimes have their downsides.

Also, humans have adapted. You and every other person here look the way they do because of evolution. Humans are actually quite good at adapting, otherwise we wouldn't be living all over the world in different climates. From us being bipedal to our brains and ways in which they differ from the brains of other animals, such as us possessing a larger prefrontal cortex, are all the result of evolutionary adaptations. We are never going to be perfect because perfection doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a perfect species. There are just species that are better adapted to their environment. I honestly have never seen any atheists claim that humans were perfect beings or anything along those lines. I've seen more atheists who have used our biological flaws as proof against those sorts of claims, tbh.

We aren't monsters, we are just animals. Humans are generally nowhere near as special as we like to make ourselves out to be. We possess some traits unique to our species, but so do other organisms.

Also, sorry if this post is a bit nonsensical. I have an exam in the afternoon and I am supposed to be studying for it so I'm kind of typing this all out in a rush.

I did get the saying survival of the fittest and evolution wrong, you're right.

I see where you're coming from, but a point in my post was exactly what you are doing right now. You go on by stating things and saying they are true, but what makes them true? Scientific facts are nothing more then questions answered with how the human brain sees them as plausible. Nothing that we know could be true, maybe they work out but work differently in reality? We could surely discuss all of this, but my main point was rather that this whole system (TO ME) is completely flawed and while we are alive thanks to adapting to our environment, that maybe some did not adapt fully thus creating problems with health or mentally.

I also often see people state scientific facts as if they are true and right, just as you did. I recommend to include words such as "science says" especially if the other person is religious or has different views. Because for them that might not be true or real. I don't care about it tho.

Either way, never cared about science besides maybe watching dr.stone, so it was just a post made out of boredom...

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

The universe, evolution or call it God offers you to play a game, if you don´t like the rules you are free to quit.

 

[nohopenolife]

That's becouse they arent

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I see where you're coming from, but a point in my post was exactly what you are doing right now. You go on by stating things and saying they are true, but what makes them true? Scientific facts are nothing more then questions answered with how the human brain sees them as plausible. Nothing that we know could be true, maybe they work out but work differently in reality? We could surely discuss all of this, but my main point was rather that this whole system (TO ME) is completely flawed and while we are alive thanks to adapting to our environment, that maybe some did not adapt fully thus creating problems with health or mentally.

I also often see people state scientific facts as if they are true and right, just as you did. I recommend to include words such as "science says" especially if the other person is religious or has different views. Because for them that might not be true or real. I don't care about it tho.

Either way, never cared about science besides maybe watching dr.stone, so it was just a post made out of boredom...

The thing is, many of the things that we have discovered through science actually go against how we used to see the world and what we used to view as being plausible. Take evolution for example. Many viewed evolution as being impossible. It was something that the human mind couldn't wrap itself around. Even today, you still have people who are still in denial about it because it doesn't feel plausible, yet it is. We have all the evidence to prove it. Science has, and always will, sometimes come to conclusions that go against how our brains typically tend to view the world around us. Science isn't always right. Our understanding of the world around us is always changing. However, it is through science that we are able to even get the right answers in the first place and it is through science that we are able to advance. From the electricity in your home to the device you are using to make this post come from science. They are the result of the things that science gets right. Generally, you are much more likely to be on the right track by using scientific facts compared to just making assumptions.

Also, natural selection requires there to be variation within a population. Every species is going to have its members are aren't as able to adapt to their environment as others. If everyone was perfectly adapted to their environment then natural selection wouldn't occur. Along with that, the mental and health problems that humans currently face are more so because evolution not catching up with human advancements. We've advanced very quickly over a short period of time, leading to major changes in our lifestyle. Some of the adaptations we had that would have allowed our ancestors to survive are not adapted to this society we have created. We are still evolving though, even if it isn't always that noticeable on the surface.

 

[GoSan1]

The thing is, many of the things that we have discovered through science actually go against how we used to see the world and what we used to view as being plausible. Take evolution for example. Many viewed evolution as being impossible. It was something that the human mind couldn't wrap itself around. Even today, you still have people who are still in denial about it because it doesn't feel plausible, yet it is. We have all the evidence to prove it. Science has, and always will, sometimes come to conclusions that go against how our brains typically tend to view the world around us. Science isn't always right. Our understanding of the world around us is always changing. However, it is through science that we are able to even get the right answers in the first place and it is through science that we are able to advance. From the electricity in your home to the device you are using to make this post come from science. They are the result of the things that science gets right. Generally, you are much more likely to be on the right track by using scientific facts compared to just making assumptions.

Also, natural selection requires there to be variation within a population. Every species is going to have its members are aren't as able to adapt to their environment as others. If everyone was perfectly adapted to their environment then natural selection wouldn't occur. Along with that, the mental and health problems that humans currently face are more so because evolution not catching up with human advancements. We've advanced very quickly over a short period of time, leading to major changes in our lifestyle. Some of the adaptations we had that would have allowed our ancestors to survive are not adapted to this society we have created. We are still evolving though, even if it isn't always that noticeable on the surface.

Thanks for the explanation

 

[The_Hunter]

The thing is, many of the things that we have discovered through science actually go against how we used to see the world and what we used to view as being plausible. Take evolution for example. Many viewed evolution as being impossible. It was something that the human mind couldn't wrap itself around. Even today, you still have people who are still in denial about it because it doesn't feel plausible, yet it is. We have all the evidence to prove it. Science has, and always will, sometimes come to conclusions that go against how our brains typically tend to view the world around us. Science isn't always right. Our understanding of the world around us is always changing. However, it is through science that we are able to even get the right answers in the first place and it is through science that we are able to advance. From the electricity in your home to the device you are using to make this post come from science. They are the result of the things that science gets right. Generally, you are much more likely to be on the right track by using scientific facts compared to just making assumptions.

Also, natural selection requires there to be variation within a population. Every species is going to have its members are aren't as able to adapt to their environment as others. If everyone was perfectly adapted to their environment then natural selection wouldn't occur. Along with that, the mental and health problems that humans currently face are more so because evolution not catching up with human advancements. We've advanced very quickly over a short period of time, leading to major changes in our lifestyle. Some of the adaptations we had that would have allowed our ancestors to survive are not adapted to this society we have created. We are still evolving though, even if it isn't always that noticeable on the surface.

Thank you very much for this colorful and terse answer to the common objection of "[but] science was wrong before".

I also like how you linked that right into mental health and how society affects us. A nice work of words, in these two paragraphs; and well-connected, at that. My respects.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Personally, I'm not too sold on the religious side of things- it's far too flawed to my mind to fully believe. I'm not sure it's relevant to attribute notions of 'good' and 'bad' to the processes that govern us either. Like gravity- it's good for some things and, bad for others. I don't personally think these systems are conscious to be able to have benevolent or malicious intent.

Evolution simply ensures that the most adapted creatures to their environment survive. I don't think evolution particularly cares who wins anymore than gravity cares when it pulls something to the floor and smashes it.

I don't think evolution cares whether we're happy or sad. The only time it would start to really impact things is if the vast majority of the population become so depressed that they stop having babies. In which case, we may eventually go voluntarily extinct and, another species may take over.

Depressed people do still sometimes have children though. It's not always enough- apparently that a person or creature could be suffering terribly- maybe even starving. Maybe with a terrible quality of life or dreadful prospects for its offspring yet amazingly, it will still either think it a good idea to have children or, instincts will just take over. Both amongst animals and humans. (I know humans are animals obviously.)

I just think we're painfully aware of all this crap because our consciousness/ self awareness has developed to the extent it has. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense to me how that could have given us the edge over other animals. Being aware of ourselves, our place in the world, our mortality even, we have developed an extra layer of self love and importance- which has probably driven us further to protect and prolong human life. Plus, we figured out how best to subdue and exploit all the resources around us.

I suppose it's sort of backfired on us when it comes to mental illness, depression, ideation and antinatilism. It has managed to empower us against our own basic instincts. However painful it is to us as individuals though, it's not doing so much to kill us off as a species. In fact- you could argue that the 'strongest' or richest among us profit from it. Imagine how much big pharma companies make feeding us their drugs?

If there's a God behind all this though- that's something else. I hope there isn't because I can't see them as anything other than monstrous.

 

[GoSan1]

Personally, I'm not too sold on the religious side of things- it's far too flawed to my mind to fully believe. I'm not sure it's relevant to attribute notions of 'good' and 'bad' to the processes that govern us either. Like gravity- it's good for some things and, bad for others. I don't personally think these systems are conscious to be able to have benevolent or malicious intent.

Evolution simply ensures that the most adapted creatures to their environment survive. I don't think evolution particularly cares who wins anymore than gravity cares when it pulls something to the floor and smashes it.

I don't think evolution cares whether we're happy or sad. The only time it would start to really impact things is if the vast majority of the population become so depressed that they stop having babies. In which case, we may eventually go voluntarily extinct and, another species may take over.

Depressed people do still sometimes have children though. It's not always enough- apparently that a person or creature could be suffering terribly- maybe even starving. Maybe with a terrible quality of life or dreadful prospects for its offspring yet amazingly, it will still either think it a good idea to have children or, instincts will just take over. Both amongst animals and humans. (I know humans are animals obviously.)

I just think we're painfully aware of all this crap because our consciousness/ self awareness has developed to the extent it has. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense to me how that could have given us the edge over other animals. Being aware of ourselves, our place in the world, our mortality even, we have developed an extra layer of self love and importance- which has probably driven us further to protect and prolong human life. Plus, we figured out how best to subdue and exploit all the resources around us.

I suppose it's sort of backfired on us when it comes to mental illness, depression, ideation and antinatilism. It has managed to empower us against our own basic instincts. However painful it is to us as individuals though, it's not doing so much to kill us off as a species. In fact- you could argue that the 'strongest' or richest among us profit from it. Imagine how much big pharma companies make feeding us their drugs?

If there's a God behind all this though- that's something else. I hope there isn't because I can't see them as anything other than monstrous.

I appreciate the touch of the possibility of religion and your opinion as well. Was growing sick of the "science is truth" comments that didn't consider people's opinions.

You are totally right, and I did make that post while having another depressive and bored night, so I just looked for something to blame for my existence... But I should have looked more into the meaning of evolution and the saying "survival of the fittest". Gravity compared to evolution is a bit different in my opinion, but I do get your gist, especially for gravity. It just does its "job" and nothing more or less. Im growing pathetic honestly, blaming anything but myself. I do know it's not only my fault though, because if I knew, I wouldn't choose to exist.

I lost my faith in god, this is beyond cruel and I could not ever see this existence as a gift that so many people preach about unless we are in some hell...

The number of times I wished people on this site the best, yet I know none of them have gotten better breaks me, so idk how to finish this besides that we deserve else.