contrasting information about if starvation and dehydratation for ctb is painful or not

[Tamara Tami]

im doing a deep reserach about this method in different forums, on internet sites, studies, but i found contrasting information, some people and sites affirmate is painful and other people, sites and studies affirmate its not easy, it requires lots of determination and discipline and mind/body control, is not very painful, but not exactly painful, not easy doesnt mean painful, obviosly this method is not for people who never have fasting or addicted to food, but could be for people who have fasting for large periods of time and not food addicts

some statements i found on during my reserach from different sites:
-After a few days without food, chemicals known as ketones build up in the blood. These chemicals cause a mild euphoria that serves as a natural anesthetic.
-The weakening brain releases a surge of feel-good hormones called endorphins.
-Throughout the process, the body strives to suppress the normal feelings of pain associated with deprivation.
-After 24 hours without any food, "the body goes into a different mode and you're not hungry anymore," he said. "Total starvation is not painful or uncomfortable at all. When we were hunting rabbits millions of years ago, we had to have a back-up mode because we didn't always get a rabbit. You can't go hunting if you're hungry."

That pain of hunger is only felt by those who subsist on small amounts of food and water — victims of famine, for instance, or concentration-camp inmates. They become ravenous as their bodies crave more fuel, said Sullivan, a senior fellow at Duke's Center for the Study of Aging.

"If you pull too much protein into the heart, it becomes unstable," said Sullivan, a senior fellow at the Duke Center for the Study of Aging. That can lead to an irregular heartbeat, which can cause the patient to die of cardiac arrest. Or, if the chest wall muscles weaken, the patient may end up with pneumonia,

The process of dying was painless but arduous: it took a long time and required strong and single-minded determination. She wrote: "The process is much more difficult than you think. It is not an easy alternative."

Dr. Robert Sullivan of Duke University Medical Center observed their gradual decline, providing one of the most detailed clinical accounts of starvation and dehydration.

"What my patients have told me for the last 25 years is that when they stop eating and drinking, there's nothing unpleasant about it; in fact, it can be quite blissful and euphoric," said Perry G. Fine, MD, Vice President . of medical affairs at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization in Arlington, Va. "It's a very smooth, classy, elegant way to do it."

"It's a very gentle way that nature has provided for animals to leave this life," said Dr. Ira Byock, director of palliative medicine at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire.

In a 2003 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 102 hospice nurses who cared for terminally ill patients who refused to eat and drink described their patients' final days as peaceful, with less pain and suffering than those who had chosen to die by medical decision. assisted suicide.

According to the medical literature, as well as Schwarz's experience, most terminally ill patients die within 10 days of initiating the fast. But they go into a coma much sooner, often within the first three days. Hunger usually goes away quickly, but thirst sometimes causes severe pain. Oral care and medications can help.

cardiac arrest is not the same as heart attack

these are some studies i found, they statement that is not exactly painful

Dying Is Much More Difficult Than You’d Think: A Death By Dehydration

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17011713/ i know that fasting is not the same as starving and dehydratation, but its some info i found

HELP PLEASE 5 questions
1 share some clinical studies about this topic
2 share some serious sites where i can reserach about this topic
3 starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) cause pain in some parts of the body?

4 starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) can make you fall into a coma?
5 starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) cause cardiac arrest
6 who have fasting for at least 2 weeks, whats your experience?
7 if after weeks of starvation and stop drinking water you eat a small piece of food it can cause a bad reaction and death?

note in my case im on my 30's and very sick body with mast cell activation dysorder, candida overgrown, sibo, dysautonomia, brain damage caused by prescibed medications, thats why im researching this method
with all respect please just comment if you know about the questions im asking cause you have done deep research or you have done fasting, starvation and stop drink water for at least 2 weeks, because I do not want that comments end up on something different than what I am asking or diverted to another topic

guys i tagged you cause i read your comments and i think you could know something about my 5 questions
@stupidldiot @.CTB @CoolGuy9 @coppervomit @Gemstone2000 @Soulless Angel @paulstrong @Nictalgia @blueclover_. @snowman626

hopeyour understanding, tks in advance

 

[Shu]

I'm not really sure how to answer this but I know that when I do extended water fast 20+ days it's never painful. Whenever I have dry fasted 5+ days it was never painful either.

 

[sandalphon]

Don't. This only works if you are already weak, old, and terminally ill, and even then you still need hospice care to make you comfortable. Vsed is not a viable method and you will fail if you try it.

 

[Livingvsdying25]

I think it depends on a lot of factors including your environment and state of mind. Ik for a fact I almost died in 2017 bc... well my Dad was being really neglectful and I couldn't get on disability. Couldn't keep up a job either so had no money or anyone caring about my lack of food.

I ended up not eating and almost not drinking for say almost 2 or 3 weeks. I felt my body shut down. I wasn't really aware or in much pain bc of the level of like dissisociation I was going through.

It's not a reality even now I'm able to fully like conceptualize??? But anyway unless there's extreme distress leading to extreme dissisociation your gonna be aware of your body to an extent and depending on your experience with food its gonna be uncomfortable or downright painful.

I also struggle with eating disorders partly anorexic tendencies so im used to starvation in a way.

For someone like me and my experience it would still be pretty painful/uncomfortable to attempt to starve to death but probs a little less than someone that hasnt experienced the same things I have.

Does this make sense? (I hope this doesn't come off in any kinda condescending way just tryna explain bc I realized after ready so many posts why I don't feel as strongly against this menthod as maybe other people might??)

So basically it's possible but depends and still will suck when weighed against other options. I don't think it's something a lot of people would wanna experience so I don't think it'll ever be a very popular or well referred to method. So I say to take it all with a grain of salt but also think of perspective?

Like if starvation is something you've experienced willingly or otherwise than it may not be such an undesirable method bc of discomfort/pain levels as it is to most people.

 

[lostmylove]

I always look at the ira hunger strikers as a result of bravery. Even if I didn't agree with them politically you have to look at a way someone has willpower and determination and belief in something so much to go. I think will power would blockout most if not all pain as crazy as that sounds.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Maybe you've seen these case reports. I'm skeptical when it is reported that nonverbal people didn't experience pain, but the second article is about a normal-functioning individual, and she stated that she didn't have pain. However, she (the person in the second report) did receive Morphine for part of it, and this very well might have masked any pain she would have otherwise experience during that time frame.

That person's account was unusual. She survived 29 days after discontinuing hydration. She did take ice chips, but she was having her stomach contents suctioned out, so the medical people thought that the ice chips wouldn't affect the dehydration process. [Maybe they were mistaken in their assumption?] It seems odd that she survived this long, but she started out obese and perhaps had some edema going on somewhere? I mean, maybe there was some excess fluid somewhere in her body that was able to contribute to her survival. I don't know.

 

[Tamara Tami]

I think it depends on a lot of factors including your environment and state of mind. Ik for a fact I almost died in 2017 bc... well my Dad was being really neglectful and I couldn't get on disability. Couldn't keep up a job either so had no money or anyone caring about my lack of food.

I ended up not eating and almost not drinking for say almost 2 or 3 weeks. I felt my body shut down. I wasn't really aware or in much pain bc of the level of like dissisociation I was going through.

It's not a reality even now I'm able to fully like conceptualize??? But anyway unless there's extreme distress leading to extreme dissisociation your gonna be aware of your body to an extent and depending on your experience with food its gonna be uncomfortable or downright painful.

I also struggle with eating disorders partly anorexic tendencies so im used to starvation in a way.

For someone like me and my experience it would still be pretty painful/uncomfortable to attempt to starve to death but probs a little less than someone that hasnt experienced the same things I have.

Does this make sense? (I hope this doesn't come off in any kinda condescending way just tryna explain bc I realized after ready so many posts why I don't feel as strongly against this menthod as maybe other people might??)

So basically it's possible but depends and still will suck when weighed against other options. I don't think it's something a lot of people would wanna experience so I don't think it'll ever be a very popular or well referred to method. So I say to take it all with a grain of salt but also think of perspective?

Like if starvation is something you've experienced willingly or otherwise than it may not be such an undesirable method bc of discomfort/pain levels as it is to most people.

starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) caused pain in some parts of your body?

 

[Livingvsdying25]

starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) caused pain in some parts of your body?

Honestly at the time was so dissociated/disconnected from my body and under a lot of emtional distress as well I can't say I was in physical pain then. Now when I starve tho I def am in pain/feel it in different ways.

That's part of what I meant by the post above bc of my circumstances I didn't feel much within 2-3weeks of starvation but honestly wasn't getting proper anything in 2017. Extreme neglect and was reaching out left and right just to be left with it all. At one point I went through days of hallucinations/sever outta body experience.

2017 hurt more emotionally than anything else but for example last summer bad anorexic period. I was more in my body and in my own space plus no one was forcing the starvation was my own kinda thing so I felt a lot more then but, body was/is semi used to not eating so it wasn't as painful as it was uncomfortable.

Now when I starve I kinda am ok but do experience quite a bit of nausea and body discomfort but I think I'm a little (tbh a lot) desensitized to my body's starvation state.

Now I'm struggling to get myself to eat but I crave liquid sugar (soda, frozen lemonade, juice etc) A LOT when I don't eat...

Basically what I'm tryna also say is my body is unfortunately used to starvation to the point where when I'm tryna live I have to be conscious and kinda force myself to eat so my take on the level of pain and discomfort with this method would be dif.

Also, now that I am thinking about it I did experience stomach pains and such when I first experienced bouts of starvation but it had been gradually building from like 15 (2013) due to my parents neglect. So, I don't really experience a lot of pain or discomfort anymore with it :/ Not a good thing nor am tryna brag or anything just stating the facts.

(Sorry this is so long winded not good at explaining myself in general and haven't been takin my ADHD meds this week everything is long winded)

 

[SpaceCadet]

Don't understand why would anyone try such a method. Even if you have the willpower, you're going to wait for days and possibly months, suffering needlessly while there are better methods available.

 

[Tamara Tami]

Honestly at the time was so dissociated/disconnected from my body and under a lot of emtional distress as well I can't say I was in physical pain then. Now when I starve tho I def am in pain/feel it in different ways.

That's part of what I meant by the post above bc of my circumstances I didn't feel much within 2-3weeks of starvation but honestly wasn't getting proper anything in 2017. Extreme neglect and was reaching out left and right just to be left with it all. At one point I went through days of hallucinations/sever outta body experience.

2017 hurt more emotionally than anything else but for example last summer bad anorexic period. I was more in my body and in my own space plus no one was forcing the starvation was my own kinda thing so I felt a lot more then but, body was/is semi used to not eating so it wasn't as painful as it was uncomfortable.

Now when I starve I kinda am ok but do experience quite a bit of nausea and body discomfort but I think I'm a little (tbh a lot) desensitized to my body's starvation state.

Now I'm struggling to get myself to eat but I crave liquid sugar (soda, frozen lemonade, juice etc) A LOT when I don't eat...

Basically what I'm tryna also say is my body is unfortunately used to starvation to the point where when I'm tryna live I have to be conscious and kinda force myself to eat so my take on the level of pain and discomfort with this method would be dif.

Also, now that I am thinking about it I did experience stomach pains and such when I first experienced bouts of starvation but it had been gradually building from like 15 (2013) due to my parents neglect. So, I don't really experience a lot of pain or discomfort anymore with it :/ Not a good thing nor am tryna brag or anything just stating the facts.

(Sorry this is so long winded not good at explaining myself in general and haven't been takin my ADHD meds this week everything is long winded)

starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) on which parts of your body caused pain?

Don't understand why would anyone try such a method. Even if you have the willpower, you're going to wait for days and possibly months, suffering needlessly while there are better methods available.

i never said i will use this method, im researching about it still, im looking for less painful methods,im not sure if i can use exit bag, i cant take N cause digestive system issues, please respect my reserach, im not asking for opinions about what methods im considerating, im asking specific questions from people who have experience fasting 2 weeks at least or have done a deep reserach about this method, tks

 

[Red Scare]

-After 24 hours without any food, "the body goes into a different mode and you're not hungry anymore," he said. "Total starvation is not painful or uncomfortable at all.

This is a ridiculous statement. I recently didn't eat for around 5 or 6 days, for an unrelated reason of course, but after about the 4th day the pain was unbearable. It made me so uncomfortable. It was really driving me crazy at one point.

That pain of hunger is only felt by those who subsist on small amounts of food and water — victims of famine, for instance, or concentration-camp inmates.

This was not true in my case, not recently, and not any of the times I have ever fasted. The ravenous part as you crave more calories is spot on though.

The process of dying was painless but arduous: it took a long time and required strong and single-minded determination. She wrote: "The process is much more difficult than you think. It is not an easy alternative."

This Is another ridiculous statement. It is precisely arduous and difficult, and not at all an easy alternative precisely because of how much pain and delirium you will be experiencing. Your organs shutting down is going to be painful, especially without the kind of morphine that people in hospice care is given.

there's nothing unpleasant about it; in fact, it can be quite blissful and euphoric

This is a straight up lie. Of course it is blissful and euphoric when you are being pumped full of enough morphine to down a horse. For anyone else, it will be a very painful and drawn out experience.

"It's a very smooth, classy, elegant way to do it."

I don't think so. Which is why most people in hospice care have a compassionate and well meaning nurse who will pump them full of a letha dose of morphine to end their suffering. It's the unspoken truth, most these people died of morphine overdoses administered by a compassionate nurse at just the right time.... and all because peaceful euthanasia is not available in all jurisdictions.

"It's a very gentle way that nature has provided for animals to leave this life," said Dr. Ira Byock, director of palliative medicine at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire.

Another dubious statement, that is again, not consistent with experience. This is specifically the director of a palliative medicine clinic.

In a 2003 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 102 hospice nurses who cared for terminally ill patients who refused to eat and drink described their patients' final days as peaceful, with less pain and suffering than those who had chosen to die by medical decision. assisted suicide.

Again, these are hospice nurses who would just as soon as say this than admit they killed them with morphine.

According to the medical literature, as well as Schwarz's experience, most terminally ill patients die within 10 days of initiating the fast. But they go into a coma much sooner, often within the first three days. Hunger usually goes away quickly, but thirst sometimes causes severe pain. Oral care and medications can help.

All terminally ill people who were given copious amounts of morphine.

So where exactly is the contrasting information coming from here? Seems like you have culled a bunch of biased quotes in support of it, but nothing about how painful and difficult this method is, or about the people who lived for months. I hope you understand these are all referring to people in hospice care, under very specific conditions, and that they were all given a shit load of morphine to either ease their passing, or to finish the job.

 

[Tamara Tami]

Esta es una declaración ridícula. Recientemente no comí durante unos 5 o 6 días, por una razón no relacionada, por supuesto, pero después del cuarto día el dolor era insoportable. Me hizo sentir muy incómodo. Realmente me estaba volviendo loco en un punto.

Esto no fue cierto en mi caso, no recientemente, y ninguna de las veces que he ayunado. Sin embargo, la parte voraz a medida que anhelas más calorías es perfecta.

Esta es otra declaración ridícula. Es precisamente ardua y difícil, y para nada una alternativa fácil precisamente por la cantidad de dolor y delirio que estarás experimentando. El cierre de sus órganos va a ser doloroso, especialmente sin el tipo de morfina que se administra a las personas en cuidados paliativos.

Esta es una mentira directa. Por supuesto, es maravilloso y eufórico cuando te llenan de morfina suficiente para derribar un caballo. Para cualquier otra persona, será una experiencia muy dolorosa y prolongada.

No me parece. Es por eso que la mayoría de las personas en cuidados paliativos tienen una enfermera compasiva y bien intencionada que los llenará con una dosis letal de morfina para terminar con su sufrimiento. Es la verdad no dicha, la mayoría de estas personas murieron por sobredosis de morfina administradas por una enfermera compasiva en el momento justo... y todo porque la eutanasia pacífica no está disponible en todas las jurisdicciones.

Otra declaración dudosa, que es nuevamente, no consistente con la experiencia. Se trata concretamente del director de una clínica de medicina paliativa.

Nuevamente, estas son enfermeras de hospicio que dirían esto antes de admitir que las mataron con morfina.

Todas las personas con enfermedades terminales que recibieron grandes cantidades de morfina.

Entonces, ¿de dónde proviene exactamente la información contrastante? Parece que ha seleccionado un montón de citas sesgadas para apoyarlo, pero nada sobre lo doloroso y difícil que es este método, o sobre las personas que vivieron durante meses. Espero que entiendas que todo esto se refiere a personas en cuidados paliativos, en condiciones muy específicas, y que a todos les dieron una gran cantidad de morfina para aliviar su muerte o para terminar el trabajo.

you didnt eat nothing, i mean total starvation?

 

[Livingvsdying25]

starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) on which parts of your body caused pain?

i never said i will use this method, im researching about it still, im looking for less painful methods,im not sure if i can use exit bag, i cant take N cause digestive system issues, please respect my reserach, im not asking for opinions about what methods im considerating, im asking specific questions from people who have experience fasting 2 weeks at least or have done a deep reserach about this method, tks

Hmm before... stomach? A body ache in general?? Maybe like throat too a can get pretty uncomfortable but honestly even now I go without drinking anything for quite a bit/very little and I don't talk a lot/sometimes for days so ohh def used to experience really bad headache?


Body im general just starts to feel really like when you have the flu that kinda ache

This is a ridiculous statement. I recently didn't eat for around 5 or 6 days, for an unrelated reason of course, but after about the 4th day the pain was unbearable. It made me so uncomfortable. It was really driving me crazy at one point.

This was not true in my case, not recently, and not any of the times I have ever fasted. The ravenous part as you crave more calories is spot on though.

This Is another ridiculous statement. It is precisely arduous and difficult, and not at all an easy alternative precisely because of how much pain and delirium you will be experiencing. Your organs shutting down is going to be painful, especially without the kind of morphine that people in hospice care is given.

This is a straight up lie. Of course it is blissful and euphoric when you are being pumped full of enough morphine to down a horse. For anyone else, it will be a very painful and drawn out experience.

I don't think so. Which is why most people in hospice care have a compassionate and well meaning nurse who will pump them full of a letha dose of morphine to end their suffering. It's the unspoken truth, most these people died of morphine overdoses administered by a compassionate nurse at just the right time.... and all because peaceful euthanasia is not available in all jurisdictions.

Another dubious statement, that is again, not consistent with experience. This is specifically the director of a palliative medicine clinic.

Again, these are hospice nurses who would just as soon as say this than admit they killed them with morphine.

All terminally ill people who were given copious amounts of morphine.

So where exactly is the contrasting information coming from here? Seems like you have culled a bunch of biased quotes in support of it, but nothing about how painful and difficult this method is, or about the people who lived for months. I hope you understand these are all referring to people in hospice care, under very specific conditions, and that they were all given a shit load of morphine to either ease their passing, or to finish the job.

Just wanna say you're are not completely correct and thats why I shared my own experience on this. Which is also why I said this method very much depends on your experience with things.

Also... ur kinda coming off very aggressive... I chose to comment bc everyone has stated opinions on this method but, after thinking about I realized that's not correct for everyone.

I can not eat for days or survive on very little even till today. It's not painful and I actually have to be mindful to eat again.

If you are used to eating you'll experience pain but honestly I just start to feel fuzzy most of the time now. So it's really about state of mind, envioment and experience.

 

[Red Scare]

you didnt eat nothing, i mean total starvation?

I ate nothing, and didn't drink. Then at the end of that period, starting drinking electrolyte water, then slowly reintroducing easy foods, like soup, and then eating solids again. But throughout the 6 day or so period I didn't eat, it was very painful by the 4th day or so.

 

[Tamara Tami]

I ate nothing, and didn't drink. Then at the end of that period, starting drinking electrolyte water, then slowly reintroducing easy foods, like soup, and then eating solids again. But throughout the 6 day or so period I didn't eat, it was very painful by the 4th day or so.

starvation and stop drinking water(dehydratation) on which parts of your body caused pain?

 

[Red Scare]

Well, the stomach pain was quite pronounced. My body ached all over, I felt weak. I couldn't sleep the pain was so much, and I was getting delirious.

 

[CoolGuy9]

I only have limited personal experience, but in my 6 days of not eating, it was actually exciting to see what would happen and not painful at all which was surprising. Only problem was that I started to really crave for food and I'm also a person who eats, because I'm bored. That being said, I'm sure starvation would still be really painful.

 

[Tamara Tami]

I'm not really sure how to answer this but I know that when I do extended water fast 20+ days it's never painful. Whenever I have dry fasted 5+ days it was never painful either.

how many days are the most have you done dry fasting?

 

[Shu]

how many days are the most have you done dry fasting?

6 days. I prepared myself for it though. I was eating an alkaline diet before hand. I had been juicing also and preparing myself for it.
Whenever autophagy starts I don't get hungry at all. When water fasting after the third day I'm not hungry anymore. With dry fasting after 24 hours I'm not hungry anymore.

 

[Tamara Tami]

6 days. I prepared myself for it though. I was eating an alkaline diet before hand. I had been juicing also and preparing myself for it.
Whenever autophagy starts I don't get hungry at all. When water fasting after the third day I'm not hungry anymore. With dry fasting after 24 hours I'm not hungry anymore.

i didnt reply your hey at time, cause i was pretty sick, i sent you a pm, can you check it please, hope your understanding,

 

[its-about-time]

The easy peaceful deaths you read about by doctors and hospice workers was more than likely in terminal patients whose bodies reached a point of shutting down. Many bodies start rejecting food and water in their final days or weeks. VSED is a process pre-decided by the patient that allows them to die naturally instead of being given fluids/etc to extend life. Unless you're on your literal death bed, which you're not, the accounts of VSED patients is irrelevant to you.

My advice to you is not to discount emotional pain as insignificant. There is physical pain involved but the mental torment of starving to death is another story. I have never been through the accompanying intentional dehydration, just starvation, but it sounds like it would just make things worse in my opinion. Just my two cents. There is lots of research on prolonged starvation but I don't know of any off hand that research a full stop on food and water intake. I'd be curious to read up myself. Also keep in mind that people who practice fasting drink lots of fluids which drastically changes their experience regarding hunger, energy levels, and pain. Not sure their experiences apply to this idea much either.

It'll certainly kill you, I just think people underestimate/discount the mental pain and overestimate the small endorphin effects. Easy to idealize such an ""easy"" method. Not true in reality. But of course, it is still lethal. Most deaths are not peaceful and nice, in reality. This is one of the more drawn out ones in my opinion. But life is suffering. Why shouldn't death be, too?

 

[Cathy Ames]

OP posted on a VSED-related thread yesterday, and now @Tamara Tami 's name is crossed out.