shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
Those characteristics seem more important to me now than ever before. It's like they are the foundation of who you are and what you're able to make of yourself. I mean there are literal confidence men out there, that pull off crazy shit with confidence alone. On the other hand, you can have all the merits you want, if there's no confidence to back it up it's not worth much.

Whatever success I achieve doesn't really improve my self-esteem, nor general confidence. So, what am I supposed to do when external validation doesn't help? I don't see how working at it from within could help me make any significant progress either.

I think self-esteem and confidence are shaped in your formative years or maybe even genetics. At least I don't think there's an obvious way to improve it now that I'm in my mid-twenties.

I don't know how I'm supposed to create a recovery worthy existence for myself if I can't fix fundamental issues like a lack of self-esteem and confidence.
 
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listeningpost1379

listeningpost1379

enduring winter
Apr 20, 2019
93
It's not too late. Self esteem developed in one's "formative" years is often flimsy and would not survive a personal catastrophe, many people on this boat are simply privileged and never encounter any problem until late in life. I built my confidence slowly in my mid 20's but it can be anytime and the process is unique to each of us. It is also entirely personal and introspective. No one can help you on this unfortunately. The good news is that outside happenings and other people will not affect your progress and the confidence you develop will be genuine, unlike the common, flimsy sort.

You are right that this is a foundation we must build at some point. I can say that being depressed over self esteem issues seems very silly in retrospect.
 
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meetapple

meetapple

Mage
Jun 3, 2021
582
I would recommend reading The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden.
 
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Makko

Makko

Iä!
Jan 17, 2021
2,430
To have confidence, you must have a goal. You must have something you want that you are willing to fight for. If you want it enough, you'll find yourself trying to overcome whatever is in the way. If you have nothing that you want, then what do you need confidence for?
 
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shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
It's not too late. Self esteem developed in one's "formative" years is often flimsy and would not survive a personal catastrophe, many people on this boat are simply privileged and never encounter any problem until late in life. I built my confidence slowly in my mid 20's but it can be anytime and the process is unique to each of us. It is also entirely personal and introspective. No one can help you on this unfortunately. The good news is that outside happenings and other people will not affect your progress and the confidence you develop will be genuine, unlike the common, flimsy sort.

You are right that this is a foundation we must build at some point. I can say that being depressed over self esteem issues seems very silly in retrospect.
I appreciate your optimism! I know it's silly to stress over it, but I can't help myself. Seeing naturally confident people makes me jealous, it seems like confidence can open many doors. Doors that are closed to me.
I would recommend reading The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll put it high on my ever growing "to read list".
To have confidence, you must have a goal. You must have something you want that you are willing to fight for. If you want it enough, you'll find yourself trying to overcome whatever is in the way. If you have nothing that you want, then what do you need confidence for?
I don't have any goals right now; I haven't had any I was willing to fight for in a long time. You're probably right, there's some kind of correlation. The goals I've chased so far all turned out to not be what I was looking for. The only thing I'm working towards at the moment is a well-paying job, but I still have 5 years of study ahead of me, until I can enjoy the spoils of capitalism. I'm not willing to fight for it though, I only want to live comfortably, guess that's not good enough for a real goal?
 
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Makko

Makko

Iä!
Jan 17, 2021
2,430
I only want to live comfortably, guess that's not good enough for a real goal?
It's a very worthy goal, but one you have to fight for. The struggle for comfort is an epic journey that will take you all across this war-torn life. You can't get anything good without fighting, even the simplest and most passive things. Even an enligheted buddhist monk who wants nothing once had to want enlightenment.
 
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Futile

Futile

Tired of being lonely
Sep 3, 2020
499
"Inner confidence" is bullshit, it's all about social feedback
 
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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,089
Those characteristics seem more important to me now than ever before. It's like they are the foundation of who you are and what you're able to make of yourself. I mean there are literal confidence men out there, that pull off crazy shit with confidence alone. On the other hand, you can have all the merits you want, if there's no confidence to back it up it's not worth much.

Whatever success I achieve doesn't really improve my self-esteem, nor general confidence. So, what am I supposed to do when external validation doesn't help? I don't see how working at it from within could help me make any significant progress either.

I think self-esteem and confidence are shaped in your formative years or maybe even genetics. At least I don't think there's an obvious way to improve it now that I'm in my mid-twenties.

I don't know how I'm supposed to create a recovery worthy existence for myself if I can't fix fundamental issues like a lack of self-esteem and confidence.
I was a shy child who didn't interact with anyone although I was still popular in school to the point of always being elected class president. Over time I've noticed that I usually succeed at things to do. I also took a speech class in college which got me used to public speaking.

My good grades and praise by teachers, my success in the few jobs I've had, along with some other things have given me confidence. I will always be shy but people are surprised when I tell them that.

To my own surprise I've learned I can do things. I never dreamed I would get a scholarship to the college I went to but I went in, talked to the finance advisor and was given one. So I've found when I put myself out there and take chances I often get lucky. Up until age 15 I was too shy to be able to even speak almost.
 
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shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
I was a shy child who didn't interact with anyone although I was still popular in school to the point of always being elected class president. Over time I've noticed that I usually succeed at things to do. I also took a speech class in college which got me used to public speaking.

My good grades and praise by teachers, my success in the few jobs I've had, along with some other things have given me confidence. I will always be shy but people are surprised when I tell them that.

To my own surprise I've learned I can do things. I never dreamed I would get a scholarship to the college I went to but I went in, talked to the finance advisor and was given one. So I've found when I put myself out there and take chances I often get lucky. Up until age 15 I was too shy to be able to even speak almost.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I've been humbled quite a few times, but I've seen some success too. It's just that whenever I succeed at anything imposter syndrome kicks in; "If I did it, it must've been a fluke" or "If I did it, everyone can do it". So, academic success hasn't done much for my confidence. I just don't know how to appreciate the chances that end up working out for me, I always end up diminishing them.
 
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Red

Red

Warlock
Apr 10, 2019
744
I was a real mouse when I was younger too - it got to a point where I got fed up of being trodden on and started speaking up for myself and having confidence in who I was and what I did.

It's a slow process but it tends to get better as you grow older; as you achieve more and get to know yourself, you gain stability and can be confident in yourself and your actions.

The people you surround yourself with have more influence than many of us would care to admit; those that break you down and criticise for no good reason can be discounted more and more as you become familiar with your own strengths and weaknesses - after a while you might find that a lot of people talk out of their arses and enjoy tearing people down in order to make themselves feel better! Building a trustworthy support network is key and if that's not possible, take on only relevant information and don't be afraid to question the motives of those who seem intent on making you feel unsure of yourself.

Once you learn to trust yourself and your own instincts it gets a lot better all at once :heart:
 
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E

everydayiloveyou

Arcanist
Jul 5, 2020
490
What do you mean by external validation doesn't help you? The thing is, people with low self esteem/confidence can also derive lots of (albeit temporary) happiness from being validated by others. Usually that comes from the internal feeling of "no one likes me" --> "when other people don't like me, it reinforces my belief that no one likes me. So I really want others to like me."

Then, when someone gives them validation, it makes them giddy and feel good for a bit, because its like an edge case, someone who's defying the odds and daring to treat you well. But the core problem isn't solved -- which is the belief that you're inherently unlikable (low self-esteem) and thus other people will be compelled to feel the same way about you.

You mentioned in other replies that you have a tendency to undermine your successes and fall into imposter syndrome. That's exactly where you need to work from within. do you tend to compare yourself to others? Do you especially compare yourself to people who are better off than you?

Try working on that, comparison is the thief of happiness, and there's a feedback loop where you are probably thinking that your worth needs to measure up to others somehow. So you do things in hopes of measuring up, but then you feel like it means nothing, and actually people will see through you and notice that you are actually lowly in comparison to them. Whatever your exact thoughts are, it's important to practice self-love and distraction in those scenarios. Get off of social media, get a hobby where you won't be tempted to compare yourself to others (e.g. take up embrodiery or running or mandala drawing or whatever, don't interact with the community at all, just do it and record your progress, try to beat *yourself*, not others)

Self-esteem and confidence can be built overtime. It's just you need to know where your problems lie. People who develop confidence early in life are usually given a safe environment to fail and succeed in, and so they don't find failures as devastating as someone without a support system would. That makes them more self-assured and willing to take potentially embarrassing risks that could lead to failure, because they don't feel pressured to meet a standard or prove themselves.
 
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shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
What do you mean by external validation doesn't help you? The thing is, people with low self esteem/confidence can also derive lots of (albeit temporary) happiness from being validated by others. Usually that comes from the internal feeling of "no one likes me" --> "when other people don't like me, it reinforces my belief that no one likes me. So I really want others to like me."

Then, when someone gives them validation, it makes them giddy and feel good for a bit, because its like an edge case, someone who's defying the odds and daring to treat you well. But the core problem isn't solved -- which is the belief that you're inherently unlikable (low self-esteem) and thus other people will be compelled to feel the same way about you.

You mentioned in other replies that you have a tendency to undermine your successes and fall into imposter syndrome. That's exactly where you need to work from within. do you tend to compare yourself to others? Do you especially compare yourself to people who are better off than you?

Try working on that, comparison is the thief of happiness, and there's a feedback loop where you are probably thinking that your worth needs to measure up to others somehow. So you do things in hopes of measuring up, but then you feel like it means nothing, and actually people will see through you and notice that you are actually lowly in comparison to them. Whatever your exact thoughts are, it's important to practice self-love and distraction in those scenarios. Get off of social media, get a hobby where you won't be tempted to compare yourself to others (e.g. take up embrodiery or running or mandala drawing or whatever, don't interact with the community at all, just do it and record your progress, try to beat *yourself*, not others)

Self-esteem and confidence can be built overtime. It's just you need to know where your problems lie. People who develop confidence early in life are usually given a safe environment to fail and succeed in, and so they don't find failures as devastating as someone without a support system would. That makes them more self-assured and willing to take potentially embarrassing risks that could lead to failure, because they don't feel pressured to meet a standard or prove themselves.
Another side to the whole external validation thing is that I'm not particularly invested in anything. Much of the validation I do get, doesn't feel like it's worth much. It ties into what Makko wrote, about needing a goal. If I had one, any validation related to that goal would also mean much more.

I think I've gotten over the "no one likes me part", I've realized that it's more of a me problem and not so much other people. I simply don't give other people the opportunity to like me. I live this half hikki lifestyle, where my interactions are extremely limited.

I can't deny that I compare myself to others and probably a lot more than I'd like to admit. There's this anxiety problem I'm dealing with too. I only function out in public when I take pills, anxiety has gotten so bad that I can't put up a somewhat normal front otherwise. Makes me feel inferior to those who don't have that problem, which from my perspective is pretty much everybody. I don't think I can get out of the negative feedback loop before I've gotten rid of my anxiety, since it's so prevalent in day-to-day life for me. But same as the chicken and the egg, I don't know what came first, the anxiety or the low self-esteem/confidence. So, I don't know what I have to fix first either.
 
Rollo

Rollo

No pasaran
Aug 13, 2018
461
Those characteristics seem more important to me now than ever before. It's like they are the foundation of who you are and what you're able to make of yourself. I mean there are literal confidence men out there, that pull off crazy shit with confidence alone. On the other hand, you can have all the merits you want, if there's no confidence to back it up it's not worth much.

Whatever success I achieve doesn't really improve my self-esteem, nor general confidence. So, what am I supposed to do when external validation doesn't help? I don't see how working at it from within could help me make any significant progress either.

I think self-esteem and confidence are shaped in your formative years or maybe even genetics. At least I don't think there's an obvious way to improve it now that I'm in my mid-twenties.

I don't know how I'm supposed to create a recovery worthy existence for myself if I can't fix fundamental issues like a lack of self-esteem and confidence.

You CAN fix fundamental issues. I know it because I personally DID fix them. Now whether you WILL do it is another question. As you may imagine doing it is no walk in the park. It's a process which is often painful and unpleasant and involves you challenging your deeply held life outlook.

In particular among issues you listed lack of self-esteem and anxiety can be fixed. As far as confidence goes I don't believe that you can deliberately fix it. Rather it's something that will fix itself as long as other issues are fixed. Confidence can be confidence in opinion/decision or confidence in a behaviour. First kind is not necessarily healthy by itself - it's sometimes healthy to doubt your opinions and/or your decisions. Second kind is healthy but it simply increases with you establishing more solid starting points, more solid foundations of your behaviour.
 
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shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
You CAN fix fundamental issues. I know it because I personally DID fix them. Now whether you WILL do it is another question. As you may imagine doing it is no walk in the park. It's a process which is often painful and unpleasant and involves you challenging your deeply held life outlook.

In particular among issues you listed lack of self-esteem and anxiety can be fixed. As far as confidence goes I don't believe that you can deliberately fix it. Rather it's something that will fix itself as long as other issues are fixed. Confidence can be confidence in opinion/decision or confidence in a behaviour. First kind is not necessarily healthy by itself - it's sometimes healthy to doubt your opinions and/or your decisions. Second kind is healthy but it simply increases with you establishing more solid starting points, more solid foundations of your behaviour.
What steps did you take to fix your fundamental issues? I'm not sure where to begin.
 
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Rollo

Rollo

No pasaran
Aug 13, 2018
461
What steps did you take to fix your fundamental issues? I'm not sure where to begin.

I took multiple steps. The whole process in a nutshell is reevaluation of values. Values are based on feelings, desires and needs. However just because a feeling or a desire or a need is present doesn't necessarily mean it's the right path to act on it. Then again it doesn't necessarily mean the other way around either. There are multiple choices you make, based on these values, and the only 'fixing' which can be done is you reevaluating these choices, whether you realise or not that you are even making them.

To properly advise you specifically where to begin I need to understand one thing. You mentioned 'external validation'. It's a very important piece of the puzzle. So tell me what's your current relationship with it? Do you strive for it? Do you seek it?
 
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shy

shy

Student
Aug 23, 2020
122
I took multiple steps. The whole process in a nutshell is reevaluation of values. Values are based on feelings, desires and needs. However just because a feeling or a desire or a need is present doesn't necessarily mean it's the right path to act on it. Then again it doesn't necessarily mean the other way around either. There are multiple choices you make, based on these values, and the only 'fixing' which can be done is you reevaluating these choices, whether you realise or not that you are even making them.

To properly advise you specifically where to begin I need to understand one thing. You mentioned 'external validation'. It's a very important piece of the puzzle. So tell me what's your current relationship with it? Do you strive for it? Do you seek it?

Hard to answer. The best way to put it, is probably that I want my existence as a whole externally validated, while I don't actively seek out external validation in day to day life. (If that makes sense?)
 
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Rollo

Rollo

No pasaran
Aug 13, 2018
461
So the reason for the delayed response is cause I had a huge ass post to make :smiling:

Hard to answer. The best way to put it, is probably that I want my existence as a whole externally validated, while I don't actively seek out external validation in day to day life. (If that makes sense?)

It does seem a bit contradictory but what I take from it is in a way external validation is important to you and is something you seek. Now the reason I asked is this. The process of fixing your fundamentals involves an assumption that currently your fundamentals are not ok. 'Not ok' not in the sense that somebody told you they're not ok. But in the sense that you yourself realise that something is not right, something is unhealthy. So this process entails you having an internal conversation about certain choices you make, certain values you hold, certain life outlook that you live by, and perhaps making some amends to those or even some radical changes if deep down you feel that it's the right path. So ultimately it's a path in a certain direction, and I submit to you that it's a path in a healthy and a natural direction.

External validation presents a different direction. External validation is a powerful weapon with which another being is shaped into the way those who make a validation want him to be. So the minute you look for external validation to determine your choices, values and life outlook is a minute you wonder into falsehood. Because the way you should be and the way OTHERS think you should be are two big differences. And if these two separate notions coincide (and they may) then they will have to coincide, but you will still go exclusively by how you alone think you should be. Ofcourse the most delicate part is where they don't coincide. It is the part where others may disapprove of you, deny you their love and support, flat out assault you. So from one hand this path of abandoning external validation as a value - it requires courage. From another hand you don't necessarily have to throw it into their faces. External validation will still remain a factor of external world that you have to take into account. But it can't be a factor in your internal world.

So a good place to start is to consider the above.

You also mentioned such issues as lack of self-esteem and anxiety. Both can be addressed.

When talking about self-esteem, it's important to understand what exactly are we talking about. Some people when they talk about self-esteem mean some sort of self-flattery, self-approval. So the way to go is to try to flatter and approve of yourself more. List 10 things that are great about you, make affirmations like "I'm strong", "I can achieve anything" etc. The way I see it it's a false approach. It's not necessary to try to flatter yourself and in fact I don't think it's all that healthy.

Proper self-esteem is a level to which you value your own well-being. And this level is inversely determined by how much you value things other than your own well-being. There are different such "other" things that people value with one of the most common being other people's (or living creatures in general) well-being. Ofcourse you can value foreign well-being in terms of your own well-being, like when you value your farm animal's health cause this animal is your source of money. Still we're talking here about a value separate and independent from your own well-being, we're talking about kindness. In this world there are people who value kindness to the highest. For them there's no question whether in any particular case you should put your own needs over somebody else's needs or vice versa - it's always vice versa, ie somebody else's needs over your own's. So such people spend all their free money on charity, all their free time on serving somebody else. Usually they also extend their kindness to animal kingdom, become vegan and sacrifice their needs in other ways. Once I saw a woman walking in front of me who was picking earthworms from the pavement and throwing them back into the soil so that nobody would step on them. Ofcourse such a life outlook when applied consistently would lead to more and more sacrifice just cause the way our world is. For example just walking around and enjoying the surroundings would involve raising your eyes from the ground and thus exposing ground insects to the danger of being crushed by your feet. Still such people believe it's the right path so that's what they do.

Then there are people who value kindness to the lowest. Safe to say they won't pick earthworms from the ground. But they also won't value animal or other people well-being in any other way. Among other things they are rapists, cause that's what you get when a desire to take a woman is not accompanied by valuing woman's well-being.

Now the way I see it neither of these two extremes is the right path. Personally I believe in kindness higher than that of rapists, yet lower than that of vegans. And my self-esteem is limited only by kindness, I don't really have any other independent values, be it drugs, sex, environment, religion or other commonly held ones. Simply because when you value something other than your own well-being, you acting on such a value takes away from your own well-being, you always sacrifice your interest in the name of something else (even if it's only time, which could have been spent on yourself, but is now being spent on something else). And with kindness I understand that which I sacrifice it for, yet with other values I don't. These are artificial and empty to me. Still that's me, that's the path which is right for me. The path which is right for YOU is up to you to determine. However because you identify your issue as a LACK of self-esteem - that tells me that you sacrifice your self too much in the name of some selfless cause, most probably kindness.

So the way to go for you is to start paying attention to whenever you do something for somebody else and ask yourself should you really be sacrificing yourself in this case. It can be favours that other people ask you to do. It can be like when you go to a small shop and buy not that which you really want but more, or anything at all, just to be nice to shop owner. It can generally be any situation where you don't push your interest hard enough, just cause it infringes with other people interests and you suspect they're gonna be upset. Here's small example from my own life. I was buying grips for my bicycle, a guy helped me, spent time on me and so I decided which ones I want to buy. After buying them I immediately installed them on my bike and realised they're not all too comfortable. So a thought popped up that instead of bothering the clerks perhaps I should just stick with those. It's not what I did though. I went back, picked those I thought would be more comfortable (and they were), went to the desk and firmly asked for an exchange. They were visibly not happy, price was slightly different so they had to redo stuff, still in the end I got my new grips.

See for society generally there's no such thing as 'too kind', 'too caring'. Society only pushes kindness and self-sacrifice. Even those hypocrites who are themselves not kind at all - they still push it as far as others are concerned. Yet in reality there is such a thing as being too caring. But people become especially sensitive with it when it's them that you deny something too. So for this reason this path reevaluating your self-esteem - it requires courage. It requires being prepared for negative response. Which brings us to another issue you mentioned - anxiety.

When it comes to the problem of anxiety (or fear or worry or any other synonym) people tend to misplace the problem. They believe the problem is with the feeling. They have this overactive internal alarm and once it's off they just naturally try to control that which it rings about. Some wise guys out there call fear 'fight or flight response'. When it comes you either fight or flight. It comes from animal world where once another potentially dangerous animal is in front of you - then you supposedly either fight or flight. This just goes on to show how much those who came up with this name are detached from reality. First, In animal world there are other ways animals address enemies. For example they play dead or they back away facing the enemy. Second, another important response to fear - is no response. Ignoring the danger. It happens in animal world all the time. Just not in the situation when you face an enemy. Like say a lion is about to swim across a lake. He comes to it, looks the water, he knows it can harbor unseen crocodiles, his sense of danger is tingling, yet he goes for a swim despite it.

So while it happens in animal world all the time - it happens in human world even more. A healthy response to the feeling of fear in many cases is to ignore it. To not control the danger. Which doesn't mean a metaphorical crocodile won't bite your ass. It may. But you take this risk. Because it's worth taking.

And it is this choice that those who believe that their problem is the feeling are overlooking. Reason is usually shame. They would rather think the problem lies within something happening TO THEM, than something THEY DO. You can come to dozens of doctors with your anxiety and they will explain to you how yes it's a feeling and you should do this and that and the feeling ought to subside. And when it don't you start to believe that you're just wired like that, nothing you can do. Yet when and if you come to the streets, guys there will diagnose you much faster and much more accurate than any doctor will. They will tell you 'oh you're pussy'. A coward. Which ofcourse is an extremely hurtful designation. And I'm not trying to validate the loathing that these guys may feel towards you or any kind of self-loathing. Yet this designation has it's merit in the sense that it clearly refers to the actual problem - your choice in response to feeling, not feeling itself. You don't go into danger when it's healthy for you to do so. Self-designation here is much more important. Cause just like with any other type of external validation, guys calling you pussy for not engaging in some dangerous activity doesn't mean you should engage in it. However once you called pussy, the only way for you to keep your dignity is to talk back like "why would I care what dumb assholes like you think?" or "you can check if I'm pussy or not any time now". And here your sense of danger will immediately tell you that saying so is most likely a ticket to a fight. Still in many cases it's healthy not to avoid fight.

Now once again you may notice that what I'm saying here is in stark contrast to what society is saying. 'It's healthy not to avoid fighting', 'it's healthy to go into danger' WHAT?! No fighting, no violence, fighting is for children, be safe, safety first etc etc. Just like with self-esteem society here is pretty set. Yet you take any one of them and within first 5 minutes of talking you will find out a whole bunch of unsafe stuff that they do. They totally could be more safe, yet they won't. Cause no matter how much they preach this 'safety first' stuff, deep down they have a very solid understanding that sometimes you shouldn't put safety first. They won't admit to it and will keep preaching, but it's still there.

This is not to say that it's healthy to always go into danger, to take every risk. It's a delicate and very personal choice. Risk is always the risk. Once you took it - it's only up to fate whether you face the consequence or not. Even when it's small. Like say there's a nice weather outside, you think about going for a walk but then anxiety builds up 'what if something happens?'. No use wishing this feeling wasn't there or that it's irrational. It's rational. Every time you leave the security of your house you take a risk. That lock on the door it's for a reason. People, animals, cars etc. And every day there are people who paid with their life or health for this decision, nothing would have happened had they stayed indoors. Is such decision healthy? Only for you to decide. Totally healthy if you ask me.

Another common complaint with anxiety is mindfuck. People keep thinking and thinking about stuff that scares them. The only reason - they don't take a healthy risk. Thinking is controlling. So If you're scared of something and want to control it - thinking is what you will do no matter how much you detest it. Like say a thought pops up in your head that you may have cancer. And you may. Just like I may. Anyone can have cancer at any given moment. So then if you decide you're not going to control it, you're gonna let it play out however it may - then you're not gonna think about it. But if you don't make such a choice, if your choice is to try to control it then ofcourse you're gonna think about it. What are the statistics. ok chance is small but still possible, maybe I should do a check up etc. Over and over again.

So the bottom line is - if anxiety is your issue, then consider the above, understand that while taking a risk always carries a possibility of consequence, still it's often healthy and it's your inalienable right to decide when to take and when not to. And perhaps become less of a safe guy.

There are couple of other issues which you may want to pay attention to but so far I think it's too much info anyway, so just consider the above and when you're ready I can tell you some more stuff. If you have any questions about the above, ask away.
 
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