Being UNgrateful

[Epsilon0]

How many here have heard from their families, their friends and even their trained psychologists that practising gratitude helps you feel happier?

"Be grateful for the little things."
"Be grateful you have a home, a job etc."
"Be grateful you don't live in a war zone."
"Write down 3 things you are grateful for every day. You'll see you'll feel better."

Researchers at Ohio State University analyzed no less than 27 studies and came to the conclusion that gratitude does not alleviate depression. They say:

"Go ahead and be grateful for the good things in your life. Just don't think that a gratitude intervention will help you feel less depressed or anxious."

It's nice to find studies that show what I have suspected all along. So I'm just going to go ahead and not feel bad about not feeling grateful for the little things, or for not getting around to writing that daily list my psychologist told me I should.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It's a bollox thing that idiots who haven't got a clue say. If you do have things to be grateful for then that's fine but it doesn't wipe away all the other stuff that is out of your control.

 

[Beautiful_Disgrace]

I've had people tell me to be grateful I have four limbs. People just want to be assholes.

 

[StillWaiting]

Was told to be grateful that I have a roof over my head and when my mother complains how I wasn't good enough, it doesn't seems like she is grateful of how I am not doing anything that gets her in trouble.

 

[Sensei]

Let's take this to its extreme conclusion. I doubt anyone would say: "Yes, you've been raped, but be grateful you're alive." Or: "I'm sure it's a living hell to be a prisoner in a concentration camp, but be grateful that you get food and shelter." This form of reasoning simply doesn't work.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I get told I should be grateful as I have a family, Ie husband and children, yea and? that don't change fuck all, I'm still a horrid person, It doesn't change the shit in my head, or the path I walk.
Yes I am lucky to have something many people wish for, BUT ......

 

[Aonewayticketplease]

Let's take this to its extreme conclusion. I doubt anyone would say: "Yes, you've been raped, but be grateful you're alive." .

In any normal place it is unlikely that you would hear those words. South Africa on the other hand is a different story, I have literally heard those words said to a rape victim.

About 20 years ago I was a victim of a car hijacking. As I was being forced out of my car at gunpoint the twunt tried to shoot me, fortunately the pistol (CZ-75) misfired. I started fighting back and in the struggle for the gun it went off and although I wasn't shot I had burn marks on my hand and wrist from the chamber where the empty shell casing ejected.

They got away with my car and the best anyone could say was "Well, at least you are still alive".

Not sure what my point was but just needed a drunken rant as the memory is still as fresh today as it was back then..........now that I think about it I think the point of this post is never underestimate the power of toxic positivity.

 

[BabyYoda]

OHHHHH this is what I experienced when I tried to get help from someone when I had issues with finding love. I told that person "I need to accept my fate of being unable to find love" and then that's when he pushed me to feel guilty about it AND threatened to walk away from me. He was really mad that I wasn't improving but the thing is I was doing my best to go through life even if I was not recovering quickly. Then after a long thread of messages he asked me to mention all the things that I am supposed to be grateful for. As if that will solve the entire problem.

 

[Epsilon0]

OHHHHH this is what I experienced when I tried to get help from someone when I had issues with finding love. I told that person "I need to accept my fate of being unable to find love" and then that's when he pushed me to feel guilty about it AND threatened to walk away from me. He was really mad that I wasn't improving but the thing is I was doing my best to go through life even if I was not recovering quickly. Then after a long thread of messages he asked me to mention all the things that I am supposed to be grateful for. As if that will solve the entire problem.

Classic! Make a list.

 

[Erdapfel]

I think, being grateful all the time is irrational. In order to think rational, you have to consider the positive aswell as the negative.

 

[262653]

I've seen the "appeal to the worse case/ungrateful prick" card being played against me several times from the same people who later were whining about their problems to me or in front of me. I ended up not playing the asshole but oh so tempting.

 

[Epsilon0]

I've seen the "appeal to the worse case/ungrateful prick" card being played against me several times from the same people who later were whining about their problems to me or in front of me. I ended up not playing the asshole but oh so tempting.

You heart is kind @Burzolog
Too bad that means next to nothing in this cruel world.

 

[Remember to forget]

I am grateful I have what I have but I have worked hard for it so I deserve it in a way. I'm not grateful I'm alive because others are worse off, I'm not grateful because even though I have heath issues others have it worse, no one should compare your life with others worse off as they have no idea how anyone feels inside.

 

[262653]

You heart is kind @Burzolog

Why do you think so? I'm not sure if I didn't do this because I cared about their feelings. When some degree of forethought is applied, I just don't see how that card could benefit me (unless I enjoy irritating people but then again, the short term pleasure might not be worth the highly probable (by my own predictions, again) disposition loss towards me) so one doesn't have to be kind (have kind intentions, although I don't believe in kind intentions but that's another topic) to avoid distressing others...

 

[Deleted member 1496]

I understanding giving weight to the positives as much as to the negatives, but the "be grateful" advice ends up being "let's ignore the negatives. Life is what you focus on." Which is like telling a person whose body normally needs 5 quarts of blood, "eh, you don't need to call 911. Be grateful. You've got 1 quart! You should be dancing!"

Or "Judge, look at all the people I didn't murder."

 

[Epsilon0]

Why do you think so? I'm not sure if I didn't do this because I cared about their feelings. When some degree of forethought is applied, I just don't see how that card could benefit me (unless I enjoy irritating people but then again, the short term pleasure might not be worth the highly probable (by my own predictions, again) disposition loss towards me) so one doesn't have to be kind (have kind intentions, although I don't believe in kind intentions but that's another topic) to avoid distressing others...

Hello @Burzolog

I merely stated that because my interpretation of your post was that you didn't give people a taste of their own medicine, although they deserved it. Kind people usually act that way.

I didn't reflect as to why you do that, but, of course, if your motives are selfish than that contradicts my interpretation since kindness is esentially altruistic.

I belive in kind intentions. Of course one could argue that being kind is selfish as a kind gesture makes the person feel good about themselves, so they perform kind acts in order to boost their ego. But, I would not go so far as to say all kindness is selfish.

This is an interesting discussion. I will wait for your answer before I go into more detail.

 

[262653]

Hello @Burzolog

I merely stated that because my interpretation of your post was that you didn't give people a taste of their own medicine, although they deserved it. Kind people usually act that way.

I didn't reflect as to why you do that, but, of course, if your motives are selfish than that contradicts my interpretation since kindness is esentially altruistic.

I belive in kind intentions. Of course one could argue that being kind is selfish as a kind gesture makes the person feel good about themselves, so they perform kind acts in order to boost their ego. But, I would not go so far as to say all kindness is selfish.

This is an interesting discussion. I will wait for your answer before I go into more detail.

Hey @Epsilon0

Yeah it's fine. We (humans) do make a lot of assumptions (during casual talks). You may say that I have a... spontaneously obsessive interest in precision/clarity when it comes to verbal communication. But often I feel like I can't apply the right words due to my own inadequate vocabulary and... association network (connectivity between thought contents?) so I usually end up either saying something that I will soon disagree with or not saying anything. Usually I go with the latter option to avoid fuck ups so I'm not being judged negatively and won't feel bad as the result... but the former gives me the chance to test my ideas and beliefs, by expressing them, and exposing them to attacks from other minds... help me spot the flaws in my judgement so I have a clue as to what corrections to make but on the other hand, other minds are imperfect too, and their judgement might be flawed enough to point me into the wrong direction, but not enough to spot the trap myself. It is a double-edged sword and my finesse in wielding it is rather dubious.

For the sake of clarity I'll try to keep it simple.

What I believe in (I think): Whatever we do is for the sake of our own interest, first and only.
Our interests boil down to avoiding pain and reaching for pleasure, where pain is the sensation (emotions included) that we don't like, want to stop/avoid experiencing it, and pleasure is the sensation that we like, want to start/continue experiencing it.

The kind "intentions" arouse from experiencing feelings/emotions vicariously (through imagined participation in the experience of others (thanks, dictionary)), feeling empathic pain or pleasure and thus be compelled to act upon them. It is not their pain/pleasure that we act on, but our own.

I could call some of them (not all of them because not all kind "intentions" result in a kind deed) kind deeds because of the benefit they produce. But then again, benefit for one can be (and most likely will be, thanks to the conflict of interest the living things have with each other) harmful to the other.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I get called a pessimist. I'm not. It's mindless optimists who call me that.
Pessimism is self-defeating. Mindless optimism is ignorant and dangerous.
When things are bad, it is healthy to admit they are bad: that's how you deal with them.
The most sensible path is realism and a balanced optimism.
But the ability to see the good and the bad for what they are is a very hard skill to master.

Edit: And anyone who uses the old line "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions." ----- idiot. That's not optimism, it's ignorance. At work, I always used to say "Nah, come to me with your problems, that's my job, lets look at what's gone wrong and sort it out together and then it won't happen again."

 

[Epsilon0]

Hey @Epsilon0

Yeah it's fine. We (humans) do make a lot of assumptions (during casual talks). You may say that I have a... spontaneously obsessive interest in precision/clarity when it comes to verbal communication. But often I feel like I can't apply the right words due to my own inadequate vocabulary and... association network (connectivity between thought contents?) so I usually end up either saying something that I will soon disagree with or not saying anything. Usually I go with the latter option to avoid fuck ups so I'm not being judged negatively and won't feel bad as the result... but the former gives me the chance to test my ideas and beliefs, by expressing them, and exposing them to attacks from other minds... help me spot the flaws in my judgement so I have a clue as to what corrections to make but on the other hand, other minds are imperfect too, and their judgement might be flawed enough to point me into the wrong direction, but not enough to spot the trap myself. It is a double-edged sword and my finesse in wielding it is rather dubious.

For the sake of clarity I'll try to keep it simple.

What I believe in (I think): Whatever we do is for the sake of our own interest, first and only.
Our interests boil down to avoiding pain and reaching for pleasure, where pain is the sensation (emotions included) that we don't like, want to stop/avoid experiencing it, and pleasure is the sensation that we like, want to start/continue experiencing it.

The kind "intentions" arouse from experiencing feelings/emotions vicariously (through imagined participation in the experience of others (thanks, dictionary)), feeling empathic pain or pleasure and thus be compelled to act upon them. It is not their pain/pleasure that we act on, but our own.

I could call some of them (not all of them because not all kind "intentions" result in a kind deed) kind deeds because of the benefit they produce. But then again, benefit for one can be (and most likely will be, thanks to the conflict of interest the living things have with each other) harmful to the other.

There's a part of me that wants to come up with some compelling arguments in favour of purely altruistic kindness, but I am such a state of depression and hopelessness right now that I can hardly summon up a coherent though.

I guess you are right, and even acts of kindness are based on selfishness and the desire to satisfy oneself primarily.

As far as communication is concerned, there is nothing to say, except that the moment we start talking, confusion arises. We are simply unable to carry out meaningful conversations in which participants are able to say what they mean and understand what the others are trying to convey.

I bet your post missed its mark.
And so did mine.

The only reason we refuse to let go of the illusion of communication is because we dread the void of silence and loneliness.


I find that even talking to myself is a futile endeavor. I have no idea what the voice inside my head wants from me.

 

[taylor321]

I've had people tell me to be grateful I have four limbs. People just want to be assholes.

oh my god same, i fucking hate people like that. Thats like saying "oh look at this person who only has one arm"... like ok?? and? Lots of ppl who probably have a finger or something like that missing have friends and a family who care about them, I DONT. I'd gladly lose one stupid finger to have a fantastic life. js

 

[Kumachan]

Imagine, I have those little things, but they are not enough to provide a reason to go on. Automatically my thoughts turn to CTB...