Resource Being informed about psycho-active prescription medications

[Deleted member 1465]

Many of us take or have taken anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. I'm not going to go into much detail about any specific drug or group of drugs here, but as a long term user I thought I'd share my attitude towards these kind of drugs based on my experience, research and understanding.
I've been on and off SSRIs for around twenty years. I've encountered the benefits, the 'side effects', the doctor's attitudes and the long term effects.


Disclaimer:

I have what many may see as a negative attitude towards these medications. I regard it as a more balanced attitude; one that takes into consideration facts, experience, research and reality.
Some people need these medications, especially in the short term and really should consider using them under guidance from a psychiatrist. Whilst that is true for some, it doesn't negate the fact that all these medications have long term profound physiological effects that should not be dismissed. It's also worth considering that doctors often tend to give SSRIs out like candy even though they may be entirely inappropriate for some patients. It's entirely possible they may do more harm than good in some circumstances.


My experience:

I suffer from depression, I always have. Part of that is existential and part of it is, I believe, a lack of certain neurotransmitters in the brain. I also have OCD.
I've taken SSRIs on and off since 1997.
I first started on Prozac (fluoxetine). It was a revelation. After six weeks, all depression was gone and I had no OCD anxiety whatsoever. I felt like a new person. The drug didn't make me happy, but it meant that I simply didn't care about anything that should cause me stress. I could cope. I could even thrive.

I remember standing on the railway station on the way back from work, looking round at all the normal people in awe…
"So this is what it's like! I can't believe you all have it so easy!"
My innate confidence and ability could now flourish and I had the happiest year of my life.

So yes, I obviously suffered from a natural lack of seretonin and the re-uptake inhibition mitigated against that.
At least for a while.
Around eight months and the medication started to wear off. The OCD, anxiety and depression insidiously crept back in. The drug had 'pooped out.'
That's what invariably happens.
Our bodies and brains have a natural equilibrium that is maintained by homeostatic feedback mechanisms. It may not be a state that is favourable, but that is naturally how we are. Any attempt to modify that will ultimately result in our endocrine system compensating for it.

So if you now have more seretonin knocking around at your synapses, guess what? Your brain's biochemistry will compensate by producing less seretonin.
At the same time, you will often begin to suffer from tolerance effects, whereby you have to take more of the drug to get the same effects as you body adjusts. Eventually, the drug 'poops out' and has no function at all, though you have to keep taking it or go into withdrawal.

At this point, one typically returns to the doctor and he/she puts you on a higher dose or another medication. Now you have to go through all the 'side effects' again, as well as having another drug running around your brain to eventually 'poop out' too. Do this enough times and your metabolism will be wrecked. Like mine is. Probably mostly due to alcohol abuse, but I have a distinct intuition that SSRIs haven't helped.

I did try a higher dose of Prozac and it disassociated me to the point where I felt that no-one else was actually real. I intellectually knew they were, so I refrained from ramming that BMW that cut me up, but I felt that it didn't matter and I could hurt someone without consequence because they weren't real. Needless to say, the 'side effects' were worse than what they were treating so I stopped cold turkey for safety's sake.

I have tried may other SSRIs over the years but none have has any positive effect. The last one I was on was Mirtazapine. This is the go to drug in the UK right now because it acts as an antidepressant, an anxyolitic and helps you sleep. Value for money! But I was seeing an endocrinologist at the time as many of my symptoms pointed towards metabolic issues. He was shocked I had been placed on such a drug.
His quote was "Mirtazapine causes diabetes."
I thought that was a little vehement, so I did some research. It turns out that there is a growing body of evidence to support the fact that SSRIs and anti-psychotics have the effect of upsetting the body's metabolism. They seem to alter the ghrelin and leptin levels and interfere with the glucose metabolism, leading to hunger, weight gain and a variety of other 'side effects.'

However, the prescribing doctors don't usually tell you this. They have appointments of ten minutes for a GP or an hour for a psychiatrist. They have a long list of other patients. My psychiatric nurse once told me that ALL her 'service users' were on medication and I was the only one that wasn't and it was strange.
One of the first priorities of most psychiatrists is to get you on a medication, quicktime. Then to up the dose to a 'working level.'
You can go into a consultation and say anything you wish about having metabolic issues or how after twenty years on and off SSRIs they don't work any more, but you'll still come out the other end with a prescription for something or other. That's what they do. They don't listen, they prescribe.

Why?

Because then you are more easily dealt with, your depression or anxiety is hopefully lessened, you are more compliant and will be more easily told how to think and feel by a counsellor.
Job done. Patient treated and discharged. Next.
Meanwhile, you now have the 'side effects' to deal with in the future and the tolerance effects and inevitable withdrawal that you will be forced to suffer when the drug is doing more harm than good. They have effectively kicked the problem down the road, whilst making it worse for the next doctor that has to deal with you, hopefully not them. And if it is them, guess what? Another prescription will sort it all out!

When I first started on Prozac all those years ago, I asked what would happen when I finished the course.
"You'll be cured!" said the doctor.
I was suspicious then. Now of course I realise he was talking out of his arse.


'Side Effects'

You may have noticed how I use quote marks when I refer to 'side effects.'
Yes, I have an agenda. So do the doctors.

There are two types of 'side effects.'
1. The short-term effects of a medication as your body acclimatises itself to dealing with the chemical. These can vary from common effects like constipation and a dry mouth, to serious (though thankfully rare) allergic reactions. These effects usually lessen and go away within a few weeks. That's when they customarily up the dosage to a 'maintenance level.' Now you get the effects again, and again have to wait for them to wear off.
2. The long term, metabolic changes that your body and brain goes through as it accepts the medication into it's 'new normal' and restructures how it works to accommodate it.
These are NOT 'side effects.' These are sometimes permanent, profound endocrine adaptations that may seriously impact your health.

The more different medications you try in order to mitigate against these changes, the more you may actually be fucking everything up.
The term 'side effects' is intentionally dismissive. Effects that are regarded as unimportant and you just have to accept, minor really. The doctors use this term to ensure that you comply with their regime.
How many times have you been prescribed something without any mention of 'side effects?'
How many times has a prescribing doctor told you the long term implications of being on a medication?
Exactly.
Maybe you have had a good doctor and he/she has indeed discussed these things with you. Then you are very lucky.

What we need here is for doctors to be honest; to describe the short-term benefits of a drug, the short-term 'side effects' and the long-term changes and dangers. Then, as patients, we can make an informed decision as to whether or not to accept the prescription.
How can you make an informed decision without information?
So often the doctors hide this information from you and will get angry if you question them. They want compliance, not realism. They don't have time for that. A good doctor will discuss this realistically and let you make an informed decision. Sometimes you DO need to take the medication and the short term benefits may indeed outweigh the long term risks and 'side effects.' But how are you to know unless you do your own research? Isn't that what we rely on doctors for?

So I'm not saying 'Don't take the drugs.'
I'm saying 'Be as informed as you can be before you make the decision to take medication that will, by it's very nature, profoundly alter your body and mind.'

It is never wrong to ask questions of the doctors and it is never wrong to become informed. If your doctor doesn't like this attitude, then I'd suggest that that individual is someone that shouldn't be trusted.

NB1: when I have come off anti-depressants I've had no help with withdrawal from doctors as they didn't respect my choice to stop the medication. I followed a guide from the internet.
NB2: After my Mum died, I went to my GP and asked if I could have grief counselling, as I was worried about slipping back into depression. I filled in a form and the results told me I wasn't depressed, so he said no, I couldn't get grief counselling. I offered to go private if he could just point me in the right direction. He wrote me a prescription for Prozac. Twat.

 

[Susannah]

Many of us take or have taken anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. I'm not going to go into much detail about any specific drug or group of drugs here, but as a long term user I thought I'd share my attitude towards these kind of drugs based on my experience, research and understanding.
I've been on and off SSRIs for around twenty years. I've encountered the benefits, the 'side effects', the doctor's attitudes and the long term effects.


Disclaimer:

I have what many may see as a negative attitude towards these medications. I regard it as a more balanced attitude; one that takes into consideration facts, experience, research and reality.
Some people need these medications, especially in the short term and really should consider using them under guidance from a psychiatrist. Whilst that is true for some, it doesn't negate the fact that all these medications have long term profound physiological effects that should not be dismissed. It's also worth considering that doctors often tend to give SSRIs out like candy even though they may be entirely inappropriate for some patients. It's entirely possible they may do more harm than good in some circumstances.


My experience:

I suffer from depression, I always have. Part of that is existential and part of it is, I believe, a lack of certain neurotransmitters in the brain. I also have OCD.
I've taken SSRIs on and off since 1997.
I first started on Prozac (fluoxetine). It was a revelation. After six weeks, all depression was gone and I had no OCD anxiety whatsoever. I felt like a new person. The drug didn't make me happy, but it meant that I simply didn't care about anything that should cause me stress. I could cope. I could even thrive.

I remember standing on the railway station on the way back from work, looking round at all the normal people in awe…
"So this is what it's like! I can't believe you all have it so easy!"
My innate confidence and ability could now flourish and I had the happiest year of my life.

So yes, I obviously suffered from a natural lack of seretonin and the re-uptake inhibition mitigated against that.
At least for a while.
Around eight months and the medication started to wear off. The OCD, anxiety and depression insidiously crept back in. The drug had 'pooped out.'
That's what invariably happens.
Our bodies and brains have a natural equilibrium that is maintained by homeostatic feedback mechanisms. It may not be a state that is favourable, but that is naturally how we are. Any attempt to modify that will ultimately result in our endocrine system compensating for it.

So if you now have more seretonin knocking around at your synapses, guess what? Your brain's biochemistry will compensate by producing less seretonin.
At the same time, you will often begin to suffer from tolerance effects, whereby you have to take more of the drug to get the same effects as you body adjusts. Eventually, the drug 'poops out' and has no function at all, though you have to keep taking it or go into withdrawal.

At this point, one typically returns to the doctor and he/she puts you on a higher dose or another medication. Now you have to go through all the 'side effects' again, as well as having another drug running around your brain to eventually 'poop out' too. Do this enough times and your metabolism will be wrecked. Like mine is. Probably mostly due to alcohol abuse, but I have a distinct intuition that SSRIs haven't helped.

I did try a higher dose of Prozac and it disassociated me to the point where I felt that no-one else was actually real. I intellectually knew they were, so I refrained from ramming that BMW that cut me up, but I felt that it didn't matter and I could hurt someone without consequence because they weren't real. Needless to say, the 'side effects' were worse than what they were treating so I stopped cold turkey for safety's sake.

I have tried may other SSRIs over the years but none have has any positive effect. The last one I was on was Mirtazapine. This is the go to drug in the UK right now because it acts as an antidepressant, an anxyolitic and helps you sleep. Value for money! But I was seeing an endocrinologist at the time as many of my symptoms pointed towards metabolic issues. He was shocked I had been placed on such a drug.
His quote was "Mirtazapine causes diabetes."
I thought that was a little vehement, so I did some research. It turns out that there is a growing body of evidence to support the fact that SSRIs and anti-psychotics have the effect of upsetting the body's metabolism. They seem to alter the ghrelin and leptin levels and interfere with the glucose metabolism, leading to hunger, weight gain and a variety of other 'side effects.'

However, the prescribing doctors don't usually tell you this. They have appointments of ten minutes for a GP or an hour for a psychiatrist. They have a long list of other patients. My psychiatric nurse once told me that ALL her 'service users' were on medication and I was the only one that wasn't and it was strange.
One of the first priorities of most psychiatrists is to get you on a medication, quicktime. Then to up the dose to a 'working level.'
You can go into a consultation and say anything you wish about having metabolic issues or how after twenty years on and off SSRIs they don't work any more, but you'll still come out the other end with a prescription for something or other. That's what they do. They don't listen, they prescribe.

Why?

Because then you are more easily dealt with, your depression or anxiety is hopefully lessened, you are more compliant and will be more easily told how to think and feel by a counsellor.
Job done. Patient treated and discharged. Next.
Meanwhile, you now have the 'side effects' to deal with in the future and the tolerance effects and inevitable withdrawal that you will be forced to suffer when the drug is doing more harm than good. They have effectively kicked the problem down the road, whilst making it worse for the next doctor that has to deal with you, hopefully not them. And if it is them, guess what? Another prescription will sort it all out!

When I first started on Prozac all those years ago, I asked what would happen when I finished the course.
"You'll be cured!" said the doctor.
I was suspicious then. Now of course I realise he was talking out of his arse.


'Side Effects'

You may have noticed how I use quote marks when I refer to 'side effects.'
Yes, I have an agenda. So do the doctors.

There are two types of 'side effects.'
1. The short-term effects of a medication as your body acclimatises itself to dealing with the chemical. These can vary from common effects like constipation and a dry mouth, to serious (though thankfully rare) allergic reactions. These effects usually lessen and go away within a few weeks. That's when they customarily up the dosage to a 'maintenance level.' Now you get the effects again, and again have to wait for them to wear off.
2. The long term, metabolic changes that your body and brain goes through as it accepts the medication into it's 'new normal' and restructures how it works to accommodate it.
These are NOT 'side effects.' These are sometimes permanent, profound endocrine adaptations that may seriously impact your health.

The more different medications you try in order to mitigate against these changes, the more you may actually be fucking everything up.
The term 'side effects' is intentionally dismissive. Effects that are regarded as unimportant and you just have to accept, minor really. The doctors use this term to ensure that you comply with their regime.
How many times have you been prescribed something without any mention of 'side effects?'
How many times has a prescribing doctor told you the long term implications of being on a medication?
Exactly.
Maybe you have had a good doctor and he/she has indeed discussed these things with you. Then you are very lucky.

What we need here is for doctors to be honest; to describe the short-term benefits of a drug, the short-term 'side effects' and the long-term changes and dangers. Then, as patients, we can make an informed decision as to whether or not to accept the prescription.
How can you make an informed decision without information?
So often the doctors hide this information from you and will get angry if you question them. They want compliance, not realism. They don't have time for that. A good doctor will discuss this realistically and let you make an informed decision. Sometimes you DO need to take the medication and the short term benefits may indeed outweigh the long term risks and 'side effects.' But how are you to know unless you do your own research? Isn't that what we rely on doctors for?

So I'm not saying 'Don't take the drugs.'
I'm saying 'Be as informed as you can be before you make the decision to take medication that will, by it's very nature, profoundly alter your body and mind.'

It is never wrong to ask questions of the doctors and it is never wrong to become informed. If your doctor doesn't like this attitude, then I'd suggest that that individual is someone that shouldn't be trusted.

NB1: when I have come off anti-depressants I've had no help with withdrawal from doctors as they didn't respect my choice to stop the medication. I followed a guide from the internet.
NB2: After my Mum died, I went to my GP and asked if I could have grief counselling, as I was worried about slipping back into depression. I filled in a form and the results told me I wasn't depressed, so he said no, I couldn't get grief counselling. I offered to go private if he could just point me in the right direction. He wrote me a prescription for Prozac. Twat.

Thank you for writing this. I had the same experience when my previous doctor gave me Efexor (Venlafaxine) many years ago. I wasn't even depressed, just going through a crisis (abortion and break- up). I was told that this was a revolutionary new antidepressant, without any "known" side effects. Yeah right. The dosage were gradually maximized, althought it didn't work. Eventually I started withdrawel on my own, following resources online. Went through hell for months before I slowly managed to find back to my old self.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

Thanks for the informative post. Reading about your experience was frustrating but relatable.

I've tried ten different medications over the past four years. Who knows how that alone has messed me up. I had an appointment with a psychiatrist back in March, and my experience was like yours. He simply didn't listen. It was actually a bit of a traumatic experience, but that's not the point. I'm trying to see someone else but I have my reservations. I had also had a run in with a psychiatrist when I was 18 and she was not only rude (talked on her cell phone during our appointment) but she was also a bit too happy to hand out as many meds as she could; I was prescribed a powerful sleeping med because I informed her that I had minor sleeping issues. Wtf. I don't expect much from this next psychiatrist either, but maybe they'll surprise me.

I hope they don't try to prescribe lithium. My depression is "severe" and I have chronic suicidal thoughts, so I would understand why, but the side effect profile is terrible and I'm not doing routine bloodwork to make sure I'm not getting poisoned. I refuse to try another antipsychotic.

I'm probably going to be reprimanded for being difficult. But like you said, it's so important to be educated and aware of the drugs out there. They sure won't tell you much of anything. Be your own advocate.

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

"You'll be cured!" said the doctor.

I'm so sorry, I couldn't not picture this doctor as an old timey wizard, cone hat, and robe, with a massive staff and a gem on top, with a little sprinkle of santa claus!
"You'll-ah beeeee KYUUUUURED-AH!!! Ooooohohohohoooo!"
That just how this damn brain operates - when exposed to something even mildly bad, the first thing it darts to is looking how to make it even a little funny to itself.

I would not be surprised to learn that keppra is to blame here. Many users were fucked up by it in one way or another. It's not an antypsychotic drug, it's an epilepsy drug, but it has side effects that fuck the brain up in colorful ways.

 

[GoBack]

They never have a few minutes to really explain why a particular med might help you. Like what part of what I've told you is this actually for?They listen for a few minutes, ask their list of questions and then prescribe bla bla.

It's bad enough they don't mention side effects or possible dependence or how hard it could be to come off them if you have to.

It's like "Here, take this, sink or swim."

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Thanks for the responses. I'm sad to hear people have had similarly bad experiences, but it's what I was expecting.
I don't want to come across as anti-psychiatry. I want to come across as anti-bad-psychiatry. I've replied to so many threads on this same topic that I wanted a thread I could bookmark and repost in reply in the future.
I don't have any answers but I think it's responsible to share experiences so that others can take what the want from them.
And it's never, ever, wrong to ask questions and be informed.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

Thanks for the responses. I'm sad to hear people have had similarly bad experiences, but it's what I was expecting.
I don't want to come across as anti-psychiatry. I want to come across as anti-bad-psychiatry. I've replied to so many threads on this same topic that I wanted a thread I could bookmark and repost in reply in the future.
I don't have any answers but I think it's responsible to share experiences so that others can take what the want from them.
And it's never, ever, wrong to ask questions and be informed.

I don't think you're coming off as anti-psychiatry at all, mate. No worries.

 

[Iwantoutrightnow]

The combination of anti-depressants I was on gave me heart problems - they certainly never mentioned that!

There was a time when I was on meds and suffering from side effects so they but me on an additional medication to combat those but that gave me different side effects so they gave me another medication as well and more side effects came. They wanted to add another but I said 'no, this is ridiculous, I'll just come off all of them'

In my family if there was a problem you threw money at it until it was solved, dr's seem to do the same but throw medication - both are not effective in my experience!

 

[Deleted member 1465]

The combination of anti-depressants I was on gave me heart problems - they certainly never mentioned that!

There was a time when I was on meds and suffering from side effects so they but me on an additional medication to combat those but that gave me different side effects so they gave me another medication as well and more side effects came. They wanted to add another but I said 'no, this is ridiculous, I'll just come off all of them'

In my family if there was a problem you threw money at it until it was solved, dr's seem to do the same but throw medication - both are not effective in my experience!

I'm sorry to hear that. How are you now? I've seen the same sort of thing happen before, sadly.

 

[Iwantoutrightnow]

I've been off meds for 18 months now, I had an ecg 6 months after stopping them and my heart was still beating abnormally but I didn't go for the 12 month check so I have no idea but it doesn't feel right

 

[Abgrundanziehung]

Thanks for sharing! My experience has been mostly bad as well for similar reasons and I have a similarly uh... balanced view of psychiatry as well. I've tried about 30 meds at this point and almost every one of them has had severe physical and psychological side effects, while barely working in their intended way, if at all. I keep asking why that is (even though I know the answer) and I haven't gotten one honest answer from a psychiatrist. It's driving me crazy, lol

 

[noaccount]

Thank you, this is very good information.
Here, also, is a harm-reduction guide for people who want to change or stop their psych drugs.
Many doctors don't support people in this or just aren't very knowledgeable, so this guide is mostly for people who are going it alone.

https://www.mentalhealthforum.net/resources/ComingOffPsychDrugsHarmReductGuide.pdf

 

[BitterlyAlive]

Thank you, this is very good information.
Here, also, is a harm-reduction guide for people who want to change or stop their psych drugs.
Many doctors don't support people in this or just aren't very knowledgeable, so this guide is mostly for people who are going it alone.

https://www.mentalhealthforum.net/resources/ComingOffPsychDrugsHarmReductGuide.pdf

This is a wonderful resource. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Intheo]

Thanks for the post. My experience with psychiatrists is similar. On my recent visit the doc told me that I'm not depressed and that I'm in fact bipolar. He also told me I would be cured after a few months of medication. Twat indeed.
I'm convinced the whole field is total junk science.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Thank you, this is very good information.
Here, also, is a harm-reduction guide for people who want to change or stop their psych drugs.
Many doctors don't support people in this or just aren't very knowledgeable, so this guide is mostly for people who are going it alone.

https://www.mentalhealthforum.net/resources/ComingOffPsychDrugsHarmReductGuide.pdf

Thanks for the link. It's true they do seem to disdain their patients having any control.

Thanks for the post. My experience with psychiatrists is similar. On my recent visit the doc told me that I'm not depressed and that I'm in fact bipolar. He also told me I would be cured after a few months of medication. Twat indeed.
I'm convinced the whole field is total junk science.

Any doc that says you can take psychoactive medication and be cured is dangerous. I'm sure those with more experience of the condition will proof me on this but AFAIK you can't cure bipolar. If he thinks that, then I'd question any diagnosis he gives too.

 

[DyingAlf]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write out & post this.
Seems like you & I had some similar experiences within the NHS mental health system.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write out & post this.
Seems like you & I had some similar experiences within the NHS mental health system.

My pleasure, I think everyone's experience is valuable to share.
I think a lot of people have had the same experience unfortunately. It has it's place in things, but personally I think for many it doesn't work. It's a sticking plaster at best, that we are convinced by consensus will heal us. But when you are up to your arse in alligators, it's all too easy to lose sight of the fact that the only realistic and lasting solution to the problem isn't to shoot alligators, it's to drain the swamp.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

Some terrific information in the op. Want to get this thread back into the feed.

 

[DFFP]

Many of us take or have taken anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. I'm not going to go into much detail about any specific drug or group of drugs here, but as a long term user I thought I'd share my attitude towards these kind of drugs based on my experience, research and understanding.
I've been on and off SSRIs for around twenty years. I've encountered the benefits, the 'side effects', the doctor's attitudes and the long term effects.


Disclaimer:

I have what many may see as a negative attitude towards these medications. I regard it as a more balanced attitude; one that takes into consideration facts, experience, research and reality.
Some people need these medications, especially in the short term and really should consider using them under guidance from a psychiatrist. Whilst that is true for some, it doesn't negate the fact that all these medications have long term profound physiological effects that should not be dismissed. It's also worth considering that doctors often tend to give SSRIs out like candy even though they may be entirely inappropriate for some patients. It's entirely possible they may do more harm than good in some circumstances.


My experience:

I suffer from depression, I always have. Part of that is existential and part of it is, I believe, a lack of certain neurotransmitters in the brain. I also have OCD.
I've taken SSRIs on and off since 1997.
I first started on Prozac (fluoxetine). It was a revelation. After six weeks, all depression was gone and I had no OCD anxiety whatsoever. I felt like a new person. The drug didn't make me happy, but it meant that I simply didn't care about anything that should cause me stress. I could cope. I could even thrive.

I remember standing on the railway station on the way back from work, looking round at all the normal people in awe…
"So this is what it's like! I can't believe you all have it so easy!"
My innate confidence and ability could now flourish and I had the happiest year of my life.

So yes, I obviously suffered from a natural lack of seretonin and the re-uptake inhibition mitigated against that.
At least for a while.
Around eight months and the medication started to wear off. The OCD, anxiety and depression insidiously crept back in. The drug had 'pooped out.'
That's what invariably happens.
Our bodies and brains have a natural equilibrium that is maintained by homeostatic feedback mechanisms. It may not be a state that is favourable, but that is naturally how we are. Any attempt to modify that will ultimately result in our endocrine system compensating for it.

So if you now have more seretonin knocking around at your synapses, guess what? Your brain's biochemistry will compensate by producing less seretonin.
At the same time, you will often begin to suffer from tolerance effects, whereby you have to take more of the drug to get the same effects as you body adjusts. Eventually, the drug 'poops out' and has no function at all, though you have to keep taking it or go into withdrawal.

At this point, one typically returns to the doctor and he/she puts you on a higher dose or another medication. Now you have to go through all the 'side effects' again, as well as having another drug running around your brain to eventually 'poop out' too. Do this enough times and your metabolism will be wrecked. Like mine is. Probably mostly due to alcohol abuse, but I have a distinct intuition that SSRIs haven't helped.

I did try a higher dose of Prozac and it disassociated me to the point where I felt that no-one else was actually real. I intellectually knew they were, so I refrained from ramming that BMW that cut me up, but I felt that it didn't matter and I could hurt someone without consequence because they weren't real. Needless to say, the 'side effects' were worse than what they were treating so I stopped cold turkey for safety's sake.

I have tried may other SSRIs over the years but none have has any positive effect. The last one I was on was Mirtazapine. This is the go to drug in the UK right now because it acts as an antidepressant, an anxyolitic and helps you sleep. Value for money! But I was seeing an endocrinologist at the time as many of my symptoms pointed towards metabolic issues. He was shocked I had been placed on such a drug.
His quote was "Mirtazapine causes diabetes."
I thought that was a little vehement, so I did some research. It turns out that there is a growing body of evidence to support the fact that SSRIs and anti-psychotics have the effect of upsetting the body's metabolism. They seem to alter the ghrelin and leptin levels and interfere with the glucose metabolism, leading to hunger, weight gain and a variety of other 'side effects.'

However, the prescribing doctors don't usually tell you this. They have appointments of ten minutes for a GP or an hour for a psychiatrist. They have a long list of other patients. My psychiatric nurse once told me that ALL her 'service users' were on medication and I was the only one that wasn't and it was strange.
One of the first priorities of most psychiatrists is to get you on a medication, quicktime. Then to up the dose to a 'working level.'
You can go into a consultation and say anything you wish about having metabolic issues or how after twenty years on and off SSRIs they don't work any more, but you'll still come out the other end with a prescription for something or other. That's what they do. They don't listen, they prescribe.

Why?

Because then you are more easily dealt with, your depression or anxiety is hopefully lessened, you are more compliant and will be more easily told how to think and feel by a counsellor.
Job done. Patient treated and discharged. Next.
Meanwhile, you now have the 'side effects' to deal with in the future and the tolerance effects and inevitable withdrawal that you will be forced to suffer when the drug is doing more harm than good. They have effectively kicked the problem down the road, whilst making it worse for the next doctor that has to deal with you, hopefully not them. And if it is them, guess what? Another prescription will sort it all out!

When I first started on Prozac all those years ago, I asked what would happen when I finished the course.
"You'll be cured!" said the doctor.
I was suspicious then. Now of course I realise he was talking out of his arse.


'Side Effects'

You may have noticed how I use quote marks when I refer to 'side effects.'
Yes, I have an agenda. So do the doctors.

There are two types of 'side effects.'
1. The short-term effects of a medication as your body acclimatises itself to dealing with the chemical. These can vary from common effects like constipation and a dry mouth, to serious (though thankfully rare) allergic reactions. These effects usually lessen and go away within a few weeks. That's when they customarily up the dosage to a 'maintenance level.' Now you get the effects again, and again have to wait for them to wear off.
2. The long term, metabolic changes that your body and brain goes through as it accepts the medication into it's 'new normal' and restructures how it works to accommodate it.
These are NOT 'side effects.' These are sometimes permanent, profound endocrine adaptations that may seriously impact your health.

The more different medications you try in order to mitigate against these changes, the more you may actually be fucking everything up.
The term 'side effects' is intentionally dismissive. Effects that are regarded as unimportant and you just have to accept, minor really. The doctors use this term to ensure that you comply with their regime.
How many times have you been prescribed something without any mention of 'side effects?'
How many times has a prescribing doctor told you the long term implications of being on a medication?
Exactly.
Maybe you have had a good doctor and he/she has indeed discussed these things with you. Then you are very lucky.

What we need here is for doctors to be honest; to describe the short-term benefits of a drug, the short-term 'side effects' and the long-term changes and dangers. Then, as patients, we can make an informed decision as to whether or not to accept the prescription.
How can you make an informed decision without information?
So often the doctors hide this information from you and will get angry if you question them. They want compliance, not realism. They don't have time for that. A good doctor will discuss this realistically and let you make an informed decision. Sometimes you DO need to take the medication and the short term benefits may indeed outweigh the long term risks and 'side effects.' But how are you to know unless you do your own research? Isn't that what we rely on doctors for?

So I'm not saying 'Don't take the drugs.'
I'm saying 'Be as informed as you can be before you make the decision to take medication that will, by it's very nature, profoundly alter your body and mind.'

It is never wrong to ask questions of the doctors and it is never wrong to become informed. If your doctor doesn't like this attitude, then I'd suggest that that individual is someone that shouldn't be trusted.

NB1: when I have come off anti-depressants I've had no help with withdrawal from doctors as they didn't respect my choice to stop the medication. I followed a guide from the internet.
NB2: After my Mum died, I went to my GP and asked if I could have grief counselling, as I was worried about slipping back into depression. I filled in a form and the results told me I wasn't depressed, so he said no, I couldn't get grief counselling. I offered to go private if he could just point me in the right direction. He wrote me a prescription for Prozac. Twat.

I find your words quite correct. For my part, I regret having taken these drugs because even if they helped a little bit, they really complicated my life. Fuck me, I hate the doctors I've passed. :(

 

[outofluck]

This is so well written, I almost fully agree with you. It should also be noted that suicidal ideation and behavior are a rather common (and suppressed) side effect of psych meds. I didn't even have an attempt until I first took benzodiazepines. It can be argued that they exacerbate mental illness in the long term, oftentimes even in the short term. The serotonin hypothesis was also founded on very weak data and is a totally incomplete and reductive picture of mental illness.

I wish I had never touched a psych med, they did so much harm to me mentally and physically. I am now unable to tolerate any of them without experiencing severe side effects.

I would also like to note that most doctors are not trained in the long term effexts of medications and do not even believe they are real. Perhaps because every medical textbook is written by pharmaceutical companies. I mean all of them. Even as a nutrition student, every textbook I had was written by these companies, including basic anatomy and physiology. Big pharma controls the entire picture and narrative of medical science.

 

[chrisbate7]

This is so well written, I almost fully agree with you. It should also be noted that suicidal ideation and behavior are a rather common (and suppressed) side effect of psych meds. I didn't even have an attempt until I first took benzodiazepines. It can be argued that they exacerbate mental illness in the long term, oftentimes even in the short term. The serotonin hypothesis was also founded on very weak data and is a totally incomplete and reductive picture of mental illness.

I wish I had never touched a psych med, they did so much harm to me mentally and physically. I am now unable to tolerate any of them without experiencing severe side effects.

I would also like to note that most doctors are not trained in the long term effexts of medications and do not even believe they are real. Perhaps because every medical textbook is written by pharmaceutical companies. I mean all of them. Even as a nutrition student, every textbook I had was written by these companies, including basic anatomy and physiology. Big pharma controls the entire picture and narrative of medical science.

Benzodiazepines are basically poisonous. I took Klonopin for 1.5 years and pretty sure it fucked me hard. Also took Prozac for the same amount of time. I'll never touch another psych drug. People have no idea what they are getting into when they touch that shit. I'm basically anti-psychiatry now.

 

[sufferingalways]

Many of us take or have taken anti-depressants or anti-psychotics. I'm not going to go into much detail about any specific drug or group of drugs here, but as a long term user I thought I'd share my attitude towards these kind of drugs based on my experience, research and understanding.
I've been on and off SSRIs for around twenty years. I've encountered the benefits, the 'side effects', the doctor's attitudes and the long term effects.


Disclaimer:

I have what many may see as a negative attitude towards these medications. I regard it as a more balanced attitude; one that takes into consideration facts, experience, research and reality.
Some people need these medications, especially in the short term and really should consider using them under guidance from a psychiatrist. Whilst that is true for some, it doesn't negate the fact that all these medications have long term profound physiological effects that should not be dismissed. It's also worth considering that doctors often tend to give SSRIs out like candy even though they may be entirely inappropriate for some patients. It's entirely possible they may do more harm than good in some circumstances.


My experience:

I suffer from depression, I always have. Part of that is existential and part of it is, I believe, a lack of certain neurotransmitters in the brain. I also have OCD.
I've taken SSRIs on and off since 1997.
I first started on Prozac (fluoxetine). It was a revelation. After six weeks, all depression was gone and I had no OCD anxiety whatsoever. I felt like a new person. The drug didn't make me happy, but it meant that I simply didn't care about anything that should cause me stress. I could cope. I could even thrive.

I remember standing on the railway station on the way back from work, looking round at all the normal people in awe…
"So this is what it's like! I can't believe you all have it so easy!"
My innate confidence and ability could now flourish and I had the happiest year of my life.

So yes, I obviously suffered from a natural lack of seretonin and the re-uptake inhibition mitigated against that.
At least for a while.
Around eight months and the medication started to wear off. The OCD, anxiety and depression insidiously crept back in. The drug had 'pooped out.'
That's what invariably happens.
Our bodies and brains have a natural equilibrium that is maintained by homeostatic feedback mechanisms. It may not be a state that is favourable, but that is naturally how we are. Any attempt to modify that will ultimately result in our endocrine system compensating for it.

So if you now have more seretonin knocking around at your synapses, guess what? Your brain's biochemistry will compensate by producing less seretonin.
At the same time, you will often begin to suffer from tolerance effects, whereby you have to take more of the drug to get the same effects as you body adjusts. Eventually, the drug 'poops out' and has no function at all, though you have to keep taking it or go into withdrawal.

At this point, one typically returns to the doctor and he/she puts you on a higher dose or another medication. Now you have to go through all the 'side effects' again, as well as having another drug running around your brain to eventually 'poop out' too. Do this enough times and your metabolism will be wrecked. Like mine is. Probably mostly due to alcohol abuse, but I have a distinct intuition that SSRIs haven't helped.

I did try a higher dose of Prozac and it disassociated me to the point where I felt that no-one else was actually real. I intellectually knew they were, so I refrained from ramming that BMW that cut me up, but I felt that it didn't matter and I could hurt someone without consequence because they weren't real. Needless to say, the 'side effects' were worse than what they were treating so I stopped cold turkey for safety's sake.

I have tried may other SSRIs over the years but none have has any positive effect. The last one I was on was Mirtazapine. This is the go to drug in the UK right now because it acts as an antidepressant, an anxyolitic and helps you sleep. Value for money! But I was seeing an endocrinologist at the time as many of my symptoms pointed towards metabolic issues. He was shocked I had been placed on such a drug.
His quote was "Mirtazapine causes diabetes."
I thought that was a little vehement, so I did some research. It turns out that there is a growing body of evidence to support the fact that SSRIs and anti-psychotics have the effect of upsetting the body's metabolism. They seem to alter the ghrelin and leptin levels and interfere with the glucose metabolism, leading to hunger, weight gain and a variety of other 'side effects.'

However, the prescribing doctors don't usually tell you this. They have appointments of ten minutes for a GP or an hour for a psychiatrist. They have a long list of other patients. My psychiatric nurse once told me that ALL her 'service users' were on medication and I was the only one that wasn't and it was strange.
One of the first priorities of most psychiatrists is to get you on a medication, quicktime. Then to up the dose to a 'working level.'
You can go into a consultation and say anything you wish about having metabolic issues or how after twenty years on and off SSRIs they don't work any more, but you'll still come out the other end with a prescription for something or other. That's what they do. They don't listen, they prescribe.

Why?

Because then you are more easily dealt with, your depression or anxiety is hopefully lessened, you are more compliant and will be more easily told how to think and feel by a counsellor.
Job done. Patient treated and discharged. Next.
Meanwhile, you now have the 'side effects' to deal with in the future and the tolerance effects and inevitable withdrawal that you will be forced to suffer when the drug is doing more harm than good. They have effectively kicked the problem down the road, whilst making it worse for the next doctor that has to deal with you, hopefully not them. And if it is them, guess what? Another prescription will sort it all out!

When I first started on Prozac all those years ago, I asked what would happen when I finished the course.
"You'll be cured!" said the doctor.
I was suspicious then. Now of course I realise he was talking out of his arse.


'Side Effects'

You may have noticed how I use quote marks when I refer to 'side effects.'
Yes, I have an agenda. So do the doctors.

There are two types of 'side effects.'
1. The short-term effects of a medication as your body acclimatises itself to dealing with the chemical. These can vary from common effects like constipation and a dry mouth, to serious (though thankfully rare) allergic reactions. These effects usually lessen and go away within a few weeks. That's when they customarily up the dosage to a 'maintenance level.' Now you get the effects again, and again have to wait for them to wear off.
2. The long term, metabolic changes that your body and brain goes through as it accepts the medication into it's 'new normal' and restructures how it works to accommodate it.
These are NOT 'side effects.' These are sometimes permanent, profound endocrine adaptations that may seriously impact your health.

The more different medications you try in order to mitigate against these changes, the more you may actually be fucking everything up.
The term 'side effects' is intentionally dismissive. Effects that are regarded as unimportant and you just have to accept, minor really. The doctors use this term to ensure that you comply with their regime.
How many times have you been prescribed something without any mention of 'side effects?'
How many times has a prescribing doctor told you the long term implications of being on a medication?
Exactly.
Maybe you have had a good doctor and he/she has indeed discussed these things with you. Then you are very lucky.

What we need here is for doctors to be honest; to describe the short-term benefits of a drug, the short-term 'side effects' and the long-term changes and dangers. Then, as patients, we can make an informed decision as to whether or not to accept the prescription.
How can you make an informed decision without information?
So often the doctors hide this information from you and will get angry if you question them. They want compliance, not realism. They don't have time for that. A good doctor will discuss this realistically and let you make an informed decision. Sometimes you DO need to take the medication and the short term benefits may indeed outweigh the long term risks and 'side effects.' But how are you to know unless you do your own research? Isn't that what we rely on doctors for?

So I'm not saying 'Don't take the drugs.'
I'm saying 'Be as informed as you can be before you make the decision to take medication that will, by it's very nature, profoundly alter your body and mind.'

It is never wrong to ask questions of the doctors and it is never wrong to become informed. If your doctor doesn't like this attitude, then I'd suggest that that individual is someone that shouldn't be trusted.

NB1: when I have come off anti-depressants I've had no help with withdrawal from doctors as they didn't respect my choice to stop the medication. I followed a guide from the internet.
NB2: After my Mum died, I went to my GP and asked if I could have grief counselling, as I was worried about slipping back into depression. I filled in a form and the results told me I wasn't depressed, so he said no, I couldn't get grief counselling. I offered to go private if he could just point me in the right direction. He wrote me a prescription for Prozac. Twat.

Sadly none of this comes as any surprise. I am that question asker.. and yes I got the twat doctor being difficult so I told him "if you won't be honest with me how can I trust you to have my health as your interest?"

He was embarrassed but when he tried to give me the prescription I just said "be honest ". and left.

Never had anything longer than two days.. this was by another doctor (a locum) who said "if you feel sick stop taking them" and it was Nortriptelyne (sp?).
Two days later I had started to feel overwhelmed with suicidal tendency and threw the bastards in the bin.

When I saw a doctor again I said how evil they are and it was typed into my records.

I refuse to be the one taking a pill if they refuse to be the one who tells the truth about what it will do.

You only have to watch their face when you ask about them, to pick up in the likelihood of a lie. Liars won't look you in the eye.

This is so well written, I almost fully agree with you. It should also be noted that suicidal ideation and behavior are a rather common (and suppressed) side effect of psych meds. I didn't even have an attempt until I first took benzodiazepines. It can be argued that they exacerbate mental illness in the long term, oftentimes even in the short term. The serotonin hypothesis was also founded on very weak data and is a totally incomplete and reductive picture of mental illness.

I wish I had never touched a psych med, they did so much harm to me mentally and physically. I am now unable to tolerate any of them without experiencing severe side effects.

I would also like to note that most doctors are not trained in the long term effexts of medications and do not even believe they are real. Perhaps because every medical textbook is written by pharmaceutical companies. I mean all of them.

Even as a nutrition student, every textbook I had was written by these companies, including basic anatomy and physiology. Big pharma controls the entire picture and narrative of medical science.

Thank you for the insight. That's disgusting.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Liars won't look you in the eye.

I only ever had one doctor look me in the eye and he advised counselling for depression rather than SSRIs. Coincidence? Yes, I do that with docs too - ask a leading question that will make them uncomfortable then see if they obfuscate or avoid answering. If they do, I don't trust them. The vast majority of people can't lie effectively under sudden pressure and their attempts to avoid a direct lie are painful to watch and easy to spot.

 

[sufferingalways]

I only ever had one doctor look me in the eye and he advised counselling for depression rather than SSRIs. Coincidence? Yes, I do that with docs too - ask a leading question that will make them uncomfortable then see if they obfuscate or avoid answering. If they do, I don't trust them. The vast majority of people can't lie effectively under sudden pressure and their attempts to avoid a direct lie are painful to watch and easy to spot.

Absolutely spot on. This also an experience with a harassing neighbour.. but I will hold that in, for now. These dramas in my life could fill a book. Tempting ..

 

[Chupacabra 44]

With my doctors, if I'm considering a pharmaceutical option, I always request something prn (as needed). There isn't always an option for many conditions, but sometimes there is. Currently, I take Zyprexa prn for bipolar disorder and I have Gabapentin prn for fibromyalgia.

Taking meds prn might potentially reduce the efficacy, but I choose the trade offs of minimizing the side effects. For example, taking Zyprexa prn for the past four years has allowed me to maintain a lean body weight and I've not developed any symptoms of metabolic syndrome, as occurs fairly regularly with Zyprexa.

The downside is I probably wouldn't cycle as often if I took Zyprexa daily, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, at this time.

I'm seeing a new neurologist and he recommended that I try a sub-therapeutic dosage (micro dosing) of Zyprexa on a daily basis, and I've got that concept in the back of my mind; but, frankly, I am more interested in trying to micro dose lithium, but I'm not seeing great results, thus far, on line with micro dosing lithium for mania/hypomania. Plus, at therapeutic levels of lithium my kidney function was adversely impacted, so it's probably not a wise option for me.

I only ever had one doctor look me in the eye and he advised counselling for depression rather than SSRIs. Coincidence? Yes, I do that with docs too - ask a leading question that will make them uncomfortable then see if they obfuscate or avoid answering. If they do, I don't trust them. The vast majority of people can't lie effectively under sudden pressure and their attempts to avoid a direct lie are painful to watch and easy to spot.

I've had two separate psychiatrists "let their guards down" and tell me after they each got to know me and realized that I'm a pain in the ass patient and that I throughly read the pharmaceutical companies drug efficacy studies for all the bipolar meds that mindfulness and meditation were going to be the best options for my treatment. I think that when push comes to shove that many doctors will acknowledge that pharmaceuticals are a mixed bag and the effectiveness is marginal based on the drug companies "cherry picked" studies. If one digs into the studies, you learn the efficacy is barely above placebo in many/most cases.

For example, I found it interesting that in the largest study ever involving depression (Star D) that placebo outpreformed lithium for depression. This is why some psychiatrists often prescribe Lamictal along with lithium for bipolar disorder, as Lamictal tests better for depression than lithium and lithium tests better for mania than Lamictal.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I think that when push comes to shove that many doctors will acknowledge that pharmaceuticals are a mixed bag and the effectiveness is marginal based on the drug companies "cherry picked" studies. If one digs into the studies, you learn the efficacy is barely above placebo in many/most cases.

I suspect you are correct. If you are, then over prescription of something the doctors secretly recognise is often only slightly helpful but with a big downside, is seriously unethical.

 

[sufferingalways]

I suspect you are correct. If you are, then over prescription of something the doctors secretly recognise is often only slightly helpful but with a big downside, is seriously unethical.

Interesting but disappointing.
So who will be the one who is willing to take the unethical aspect up with .. some authority?

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Interesting but disappointing.
So who will be the one who is willing to take the unethical aspect up with .. some authority?

Probably no one, because their attitude is secret. To go against that would be to try and overturn the thinking of the entire psychiatric professional consensus.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

I suspect you are correct. If you are, then over prescription of something the doctors secretly recognise is often only slightly helpful but with a big downside, is seriously unethical.

In general, I'm not a big fan of the medical industry for most situations, especially most chronic conditions, but they're in a difficult situation. Western medicine is based on pharmaceuticals, so this is what they know and how they are educated in med school. Unless the doctor is practicing functional or alternative medicine, then they have no other remedies to offer outside of pharmaceuticals.

The complicating factor is the client base (patients) want/demand quick fixes and quick fixes (mistakenly) are believed to come in a pill. I'm in the states and this issue is extremely problematic with American patients.

I've read some physicians state that they don't bother to discuss things like diet and exercise, because their patients won't listen, as patients are seeking the easy and quick fix.

As an aside, I think it was tragic when our government decided to allow pharmaceutical companies to start advertising their drugs on television. This results in the customer "pulling demand" and enhancing sales for big pharma. The advertising results in patients pressuring their physicians to prescribe drug "xyz", because their customer/patient is now requesting/demanding it after watching ads on television. This is an extremely effective technique for big pharma to increase sales, or else they wouldn't be spending the countless dollars on all their ads.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I've read some physicians state that they don't bother to discuss things like diet and exercise, because their patients won't listen, as patients are seeking the easy and quick fix.

That is very true. Everyone wants a quick fix, not to be told they are fat and lazy. But does this mean that the medical profession should just give out the quick fix? In theory, I'd say no, but in practice I'd suggest they have little choice. The consensus is invariably all powerful.
Also, society doesn't allow you the luxury of looking after yourself in so much as it makes it really difficult. Work all day, often in front of a screen, relax well into the dark also in front of a screen, cheapest foods are toxic, booze and smokes and drugs are easy to get, who wants to exercise after working a 12 hour shift?
I've certainly been guilty of that.
So yes, I guess expecting the docs to be miracle workers and fix it all somehow is kind of common.
However, and whatever we are each of us individually guilty of, it doesn't change my opinion that in fact both sides of that argument are essentially irresponsible.