Help Auto syringe DIY

[marcy2022]

I was thinking about making an auto syringe. Preferably to be used with cannula.
Syringe pump or similar devices that I've found are a bit expensive for me.
I was researching how to make auto syringes and I've found a few videos.


(better explained)
At 0:45 whats the tube thingy?
Is this reliable?


Explains how the above method works
The the needle is used with a rubber seal which kinds holds the fluid inside. Without the seal when additional air is inserted from the other side, the added pressure would make sure that the syringe starts working right away. My idea is to use cannula with tube connected to syringe. How to make it work with cannula, any ideas?


Syringe with rubber bands but I think it might have a little too much pressure


Maybe something like this, a crossbow (could be toy or diy) with trigger and use it Syringle piston instead of dart however even with the trigger, how to control the pressure so its not too fast?


At 3:25 magnet is used to pull the plunger. Might be something to look into? Same question here too, how to control the pressure as in how fast the syringe empties?


Or maybe something like this but it looks a bit complicated.

Thoughts?
If you have any suggestions or anything, please share them. Thank you.

 

[jodes2]

It looks difficult. I'd just try to get better at doing it manually

 

[marcy2022]

It looks difficult. I'd just try to get better at doing it manually

Some parts like the first few videos, maybe they are a bit complicated.
Problem with doing it manually is that some mixtures or one I'm thinking to use is Thiopental and phenytoin sodium. I'll probably go with double or tripple the dosage which would be 30g Thiopental mixed in 150ml water (50ml for each 10g as suggested in ppeh) and 3g phenytoin sodium. If I can't find 150ml syringe, maybe I'll go for 3 small syringes with 50ml each. Connecting all of them with a 3 headed Iv infusion extension line to the cannula. I'm not sure if 1 syringe or 3 syringe is better and more reliable?
Something like this maybe:

https://dydercare.nl/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/I.V-Extension.png

I'm not sure if it sterile water or regular purified water would make any difference but both can be found easily I think. I'll leave that for later. For now I'm just thinking about how to make it work.
Maybe the crossbow thing can be done by using a rubber band with less pressure on it. I was thinking, maybe it could be done by using a string/rubber band which isn't streched so far out and that way less pressure. That way it might have enough or close enough pressure to make it almost similar to as if syringe is being injected manually.

Still hoping someone with medical knowledge in that regard can suggest which might be more reliable and easier to do

 

[marcy2022]

According to this https://files.deathpenaltyinfo.org/legacy/files/pdf/FlorLethInject.pdf
18 guage needle is used for thiopental
My question is does it have to be 18 gauge/green cannula or could it be less or more (maybe blue or orange)?
Does it matter which type of syringe and IV extension line is being used? Does it have to match the cannula type or something?


Idk if this video is accurate in terms of the veins, if it is, which vein is Theiopental being administered to?
Is there any other vein where Thiopental can be administered?

I know my questions may appear stupid and maybe they are but I'm just trying figure out a way to make sure it all goes well and nothing goes wrong.
Also does it sound like a good reason to say I need vitamins and electrolites on a regular basis and I don't want to get needles evverytime and ask for a cannula to be placed for a nurse or an experienced pharmacist?
Suggestions please?

 

[jodes2]

I don't think the gauge of the needle or choice of vein is that important

 

[Sunset Limited]

Why not just use drip infusion?

 

[marcy2022]

Why not just use drip infusion?

What if your body moves while being unconsious and you block the tubes or move the needle or something and half off the fluid is still there? I'm just wondering, that could happen, no?

 

[Maudlin]

Why build a sandcastle when you can just walk into the sea?

I don't know what brought you here, marcy but you seem to have quite a technical mind and analytical nature. I respect that.

I hope you find the peace and comfort you seek.

 

[marcy2022]

Why build a sandcastle when you can just walk into the sea?

I don't know what brought you here, marcy but you seem to have quite a technical mind and analytical nature. I respect that.

I hope you find the peace and comfort you seek.

Thank you. I've failed before and with the same mixture but oral ingestion. This mixture should work, I think. I'd like to try with intravenous way. Maybe that'll work.

 

[Sunset Limited]

What if your body moves while being unconsious and you block the tubes or move the needle or something and half off the fluid is still there? I'm just wondering, that could happen, no?

Muscle movements are rare after thiopental injection. Especially in a slow infusion.

 

[marcy2022]

Muscle movements are rare after thiopental injection. Especially in a slow infusion.

When you say slow infusion, do you mean like using saline bag infused with Thiopental where the flow controller is set to low'ish? I can't find any data regarding saline and Thiopental infusion. Its suggested to use sterile water. Any ideas?

Here its said:https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/you-asked/why-can-i-taste-saline-when-its-injected-my-iv

"The key here is that medical personnel are not injecting pure water into IV lines. One never finds pure water in nature because all drinkable water has dissolved minerals in it. In medicine though, while pure water exists, you cannot inject it directly into IV lines. If you did, the water would rush into red blood cells because of osmosis. Osmosis is the movement of water from a dilute environment to a more concentrated one. So, pure water injected into an IV would diffuse via osmosis into the more concentrated environment inside red blood cells, make them swell up because of the excess water and eventually make them burst. To avoid this, IV solutions are almost always saline solutions, essentially solutions of salt and water."

Now that makes me confused, in ppeh its suggested to use water (my guess is sterile water) and its said that it can be used intravenously or as a oral solution. And the ammount suggested to 50ml water for 10g Thiopental mixed with 1g phenytoin sodium. If I'm to use 20g or 30g of Thiopental mixed with 2/3g of phenytoin sodiom, how much water should I use? 50ml or 150ml?

Does it also mean I should use 2/3 times the dosage of anti-emetic as in metoclopramide? Only metoclopramide or metoclopramide and ondansetron both?

 

[Sunset Limited]

Yes, I mentioned 0.9 saline IV bag. Medicines are not diluted with pure water. Pure water causes hemolysis. Do you have thiopental in powder form for injection or solution?

 

[marcy2022]

Yes, I mentioned 0.9 saline IV bag. Medicines are not diluted with pure water. Pure water causes hemolysis. Do you have thiopental in powder form for injection or solution?

0.9 saline IV bag, do you mean Sodium Chloride 0.9%? How many ml of 0.9 saline IV bag for 30g?
The label says its for intravenous injection. 1g each vail and I have thirty vails and I can get phenytoin sodium, metoclopramide and ondansetron.

 

[Sunset Limited]

0.9 saline IV bag, do you mean Sodium Chloride 0.9%? How many ml of 0.9 saline IV bag for 30g?
The label says its for intravenous injection. 1g each vail and I have thirty vails and I can get phenytoin sodium, metoclopramide and ondansetron.

If you plan to infuse yourself with 30 grams of thiopental, you won't need anything else. Putting 30 grams of thiopental in an IV bag and infusing it is deadly to everyone on the planet. Thiopental is not as easily metabolized as propofol. The blood concentration increases rapidly as the infusion continues. If you have the powder form for injection, you will have a highly concentrated solution. This would cause death within minutes, probably due to the hemodynamic effects of that dose of thiopental. No need for antiemetics for an IV infusion. You will be unconscious in a minute.

 

[marcy2022]

If you plan to infuse yourself with 30 grams of thiopental, you won't need anything else. Putting 30 grams of thiopental in an IV bag and infusing it is deadly to everyone on the planet. Thiopental is not as easily metabolized as propofol. The blood concentration increases rapidly as the infusion continues. If you have the powder form for injection, you will have a highly concentrated solution. This would cause death within minutes, probably due to the hemodynamic effects of that dose of thiopental. No need for antiemetics for an IV infusion. You will be unconscious in a minute.

What size IV bag would be ideal for 30g Thiopental or more? Should the flow controller be open all the way? Anything else that matter?

I know you said anti-emetics aren't necessary however here: https://eji.org/news/oklahoma-plans...s-despite-flaws-in-lethal-injection-protocol/ or if you search with lethal injection and vomiting, you may find some evidance. According to the above link, they used midazolam and someone the person vomited. And its also said that vomiting is extremely rare which means well idk, anti-emetic is a good thing or not?

I know I probably don't have enough knowledge as many other folks here. Appologies for repeated questions but here's the thing, In past I've failed with oral thiopental mixture with 48 hour anti-emetic regime. That time I've used around 20g thiopental with 2g phenytoin sodiom and for anti-emetic I think ondansetron and another cuz I don't have access to meto. My guess is maybe I did something wrong or the thiopental wasn't pure.
Unfortunately due to limited access I can't choose other methods such as SN, N. And I have no way of testing its purity. What I'm thinking is if I use a large enough dosage of thiopental, maybe even above 30g, maybe it'll work. And won't it help to mix it with phenytoin sodiom to make it even more potent?

 

[Sunset Limited]

My method is similar to yours. I will use propofol instead of thiopental. What would I do if I go with thiopental?

I will need the following.

150 cc 0.9 saline IV bag
15 x 10 cc syringes (2-3 spares. I need one of them for cannulation)
3 x infusion sets (one spare)
3 x cannulas (two spares)
Alcohol and cotton
tourniquet
plaster

First, I draw 10 cc of water from the IV bag into one of the syringes. Then I inject it into the thiopental vial, shake it until the thiopental dissolves, and draw it back into the syringe. Repeat for the other 10 vials. Empty all the remaining water in the IV bag with a syringe. Keep 10 cc for cannulation. Inject thiopental into the IV bag. So we have 100 cc (maybe a little more) solution containing 10 grams of thiopental. I set up the drip infusion. I place a cannula on my dorsum of my hand or arm. Once I've connected the infusion set to the cannula, I'm ready to go.

The maximum rate I can get from a gravity fed drip infusion is around 7-8cc per minute. This means 700mg thiopental infusion per minute. I will be unconscious and apneic 30 seconds after fully opening the roller clamp of the infusion set. I will probably die within five minutes because an infusion of thiopental at this dose would cause cardiovascular collapse.

The most difficult point in this scenario is cannulation. There are many videos on youtube about drip infusion setup, vial medication administration and cannulation. You will need a lot of exercise, especially for cannulation. This is really hard route if you not experienced about IV but one of the best way to CTB.

 

[marcy2022]

My method is similar to yours. I will use propofol instead of thiopental. What would I do if I go with thiopental?

I will need the following.

150 cc 0.9 saline IV bag
15 x 10 cc syringes (2-3 spares. I need one of them for cannulation)
3 x infusion sets (one spare)
3 x cannulas (two spares)
Alcohol and cotton
tourniquet
plaster

First, I draw 10 cc of water from the IV bag into one of the syringes. Then I inject it into the thiopental vial, shake it until the thiopental dissolves, and draw it back into the syringe. Repeat for the other 10 vials. Empty all the remaining water in the IV bag with a syringe. Keep 10 cc for cannulation. Inject thiopental into the IV bag. So we have 100 cc (maybe a little more) solution containing 10 grams of thiopental. I set up the drip infusion. I place a cannula on my dorsum of my hand or arm. Once I've connected the infusion set to the cannula, I'm ready to go.

The maximum rate I can get from a gravity fed drip infusion is around 7-8cc per minute. This means 700mg thiopental infusion per minute. I will be unconscious and apneic 30 seconds after fully opening the roller clamp of the infusion set. I will probably die within five minutes because an infusion of thiopental at this dose would cause cardiovascular collapse.

The most difficult point in this scenario is cannulation. There are many videos on youtube about drip infusion setup, vial medication administration and cannulation. You will need a lot of exercise, especially for cannulation. This is really hard route if you not experienced about IV but one of the best way to CTB.

Thank you so much for the details.

Whats would be the ideal IV cannula gauge?
Dorum of arm or hand, (sorry for my lack of knowledge) does it mean any IV cannula, for example ones used for vitamin IV bag would work?
In ppeh, its suggested that alcohol helps, what about drinking a few glass or shots of alcohol after anti-emetics and the tubes and everything is setup, just before opening the controller?

What if I want to go with 30g thiopental. Here is the idea:
Use 10cc saline for each vail and Inject them into the IV bag for all 30. That would mean around 300cc solution. Is it too much (I mean 300cc, not thiopental)

The other version:
Empty all 30 vails and crush 3g phenytoin sodiom pills, mix them together in a sterile vacuum sealed glass jar, pour 150cc saline in there using a syringe and shake it well to mix them together. Use syringe again to draw back the mixture and inject back into the IV bag. (preparation of the IV bag with the solution)
Take anti-emetics (just to be sure), 3x0mg meto 1 hour before.
(only reason I keep thinking to go for more is because of previous failiure and I don't want history to repeat itself, I would rather go with more if possible.)

Few questions:
How long can I keep the IV solution? (I would like to cleanup, as in remove the vails and whatever else possible. I know it may not make much sense as the IV bag, cannnula will be there but its just something I'm thinking. I may or may not do it.)

With the other method, what if the powders get dust or idk something in there and its not all the way clean or maybe the glass jar isn't all the way sterile (clean but not all the way sterile), there maybe germs and stuff, would it matter?

Big question regarding IV cannula, I really would like to have someone experienced setup the cannula. What if I tell them that I need a IV cannula setup for some vitamin therapy and I want to do it at home, ask them to setup and IV cannula and show me how its done properly. According to google, IV cannula's should be changed within 72 to 96 hours. Then once everything is in place, I'll use it within the next 24-48 hours. But this probably doesn't matter too much. Cuz while moving around or sleeping what if the needle gets misplaced and it stops working, if the risk is high then I might just do it as soon as possible after getting the IV cannula.

It might be difficult to get too many syringes, would it be okay if I use same few syringes multiple times? (I know its not ideal but just incase if I don't have access to more)

If I can get an IV cannula setup done, I'll probably get another IV bag of 150cc to test just before the actual bag, just to make sure its working properly.

For additional safety, Idk if its ideal but if I can maybe I'll do it in a bathtub so maybe when unconsious, I'll go under the water and drowning might occur at the same time? Could it affect the IV cannula, plaster or anything else?

 

[Sunset Limited]

Let's make it more realistic. The graph below was generated in stan pump pharmacokinetic simulation. If I infuse myself 10 grams of thiopental at a rate of 700 mg/min, the result would be as follows. Actually, I could have stopped the simulation at three or four minutes. Because at this point my circulation will collapse due to the negative inotropic effects of thiopental and I will die.

The yellow line I drew in the graph is the target safe plasma concentration for anesthesia induction. So you can understand why this infusion is deadly. In real life, probably after the third minute, the plasma and site of action concentration will stabilize because I'd be dead. A five gram infusion is also fatal, possibly three too.

I clearly explained what I would do if I planned CTB with thiopental. I think this is a good guide. I've explained it so that no more questions are needed. Other questions please ask Google and Youtube.

 

[marcy2022]

Thank you.

 

[marcy2022]

@Sunset Limited I was doing some research and found the following. Its about IV administration and dosage of thiopental. I'm don't understand what this means or to be precise whats the exact dosage being suggested there? Do you by any chance understand what any of this means?

"The steady-state volume of distribution (Vss) of thiopental following iv administration is reportedly is about 0.4-4 L/kg in adults. The Vss may vary according to dosage and mode of administration (single- or multiple-dose); the pharmacokinetic model (eg, 1-,2-,3-, or 4-compartment) used to describe the drug; and gender, age , or weight of the patient. Limited data indicate that the average Vss is greater in women 20-40 years old (1.2 L/kg) than in men of the same age (0.417 L/kg). It has been suggested that the initial volume of distribution (Vd) may change with age; however, these changes may be associated with the pharmacokinetic model used. The Vss is 3-4 times higher in obese patients compared with lean patients possibly because of the highly lipophilic nature of the drug."

Found it here: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Thiopental#section=Absorption-Distribution-and-Excretion

 

[Sunset Limited]

@Sunset Limited I was doing some research and found the following. Its about IV administration and dosage of thiopental. I'm don't understand what this means or to be precise whats the exact dosage being suggested there? Do you by any chance understand what any of this means?

"The steady-state volume of distribution (Vss) of thiopental following iv administration is reportedly is about 0.4-4 L/kg in adults. The Vss may vary according to dosage and mode of administration (single- or multiple-dose); the pharmacokinetic model (eg, 1-,2-,3-, or 4-compartment) used to describe the drug; and gender, age , or weight of the patient. Limited data indicate that the average Vss is greater in women 20-40 years old (1.2 L/kg) than in men of the same age (0.417 L/kg). It has been suggested that the initial volume of distribution (Vd) may change with age; however, these changes may be associated with the pharmacokinetic model used. The Vss is 3-4 times higher in obese patients compared with lean patients possibly because of the highly lipophilic nature of the drug."

Found it here: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Thiopental#section=Absorption-Distribution-and-Excretion

Intravenous anesthetics are highly lipophilic. It accumulates in adipose tissues. That's why there are pharmacokinetic models for dosing that target obesity. This is not a factor for you if you are planning CTB with 10 grams of thiopental.