Atheists, do you think the universe has no cause?

[wildflowers1996]

I've heard at a quantum level things don't have to have a cause. So the universe could've "come from nowhere".

It is just hard to imagine a physical things appearing for no reason.

I can't help feeling it makes more sense for the "uncaused cause" to be something outside of time and space.

I'm not saying it's not true just because I don't understand it. But it is really hard to understand.

 

[QueerMelancholy]

But what is the definition of "no reason" and "nowhere" in your mind?

The universe doesn't need a reason to exist. There doesn't need to be a meaning behind any of it. Between order and entropy, it's a cycle.

 

[Throwawayacc3]

Would love to get into this but unfortunately I just drove around all day - went from subway to McDonald's, blasted metal/rock music, screamed to it as best as I could until voice started going after 2 hours and then now here in bed waiting for the next day of shit to occur.

The universe is poop lol.

 

[wildflowers1996]

But what is the definition of "no reason" and "nowhere" in your mind?

The universe doesn't need a reason to exist. There doesn't need to be a meaning behind any of it. Between order and entropy, it's a cycle.

don't physical things always have a cause - as far as we have observed?

so doesn't there need to be a non physical cause?

we have never observed any other physical thing having no cause have we?

 

[Grimscribe]

don't physical things always have a cause - as far as we have observed?

Do they? Physical things certainly have a "cause and effect" relationship with each other, but that's nothing like "reason to exist", they just do and happen to interact with other things.

 

[wildflowers1996]

Do they? Physical things certainly have a "cause and effect" relationship with each other, but that's nothing like "reason to exist", they just do and happen to interact with other things.

I can't think of any physical thing which doesn't have a cause

 

[Artemisia]

It's irrelevant, we're inside the universe and therefore cannot know what's beyond it.
If the big bang theory is right and this universe came from a single point in which all matter and energy were concentrated, we have no way of knowing where that point existed. In another universe? In the absolute nothing? In something so beyond our understanding we don't even have a concept for it? We've come a long way in exploring our universe, but we are trapped inside it, bound by its functioning mechanisms, we have no way of looking beyond it. If we can't know, all theories are equally possible... or impossible, therefore there's really no point in arguing about them, trying to have the right one. Discuss for the fun of it, but that's as far as we can go.

 

[QueerMelancholy]

don't physical things always have a cause - as far as we have observed?

so doesn't there need to be a non physical cause?

we have never observed any other physical thing having no cause have we?

Have a cause if you mean cause and effect through causality and determinism then I believe so.

Antecedent events cause other events to happen. Like a chain of preexisting events that preceeds another.

Maybe try thinking of it more like a cycle of physical effects and physical causes.

I'm still confused about whether quantum theory describes the world as it is or is merely a mathematical model measuring probabilities. And from what I gather this dispute arises regarding the nature of measurement in quantum mechanics or quantum phenomena. Quantum mechanics in my stupid brain is not the root level of reality, but more of like the first few glimpses into something even deeper. Like how some objects the farther you go down (scale of size from atomic and even smaller) may not be influenced solely by their surroundings, and they may also lack definite properties prior to measurement or being "observed". But really precise knowledge at the quantum level is impossible. A big problem is reconciling it with the physical world. Like the biggest problem with quantum measurement in my mind is that it doesn't seem to give us an understanding of what is going on, but only tells us how to compute probabilities of events happening. Toss in the "observer" which is supposed to observe in such a way that doesn't cause a disturbance of an observed system by the act of observing it.

But I am an idiot who is terrible at math. Maybe when we observe something we are the physical cause and the physical effect of something happening in the quantum world. LOL If you're looking for a reason for God or a reason for anything to exist you can look in the quantum world for it but be wary because as soon as you observe it you might find that the universe is not locally real.

Here's a pretty cool video on it:



And just Sabine Hossenfelder simply because I enjoy her:

 

[Forever Sleep]

I find the alternative stranger. What possible cause could all this have? What's the end goal? We're all creatures going about our lives. We get born here, faff about for a bit. Live a morally good or bankrupt life, reproduce or don't reproduce and then die. Then- debatably- we go on to an afterlife in heaven or hell or, we get reincarnated. The crux of a lot of religions seems to be to live a certain way and obey the rules and learn. But again- for what? Even if we're all one being- one consciousness- why does it need to find stuff out?

What is so much worse though is the suffering that goes on. What could possibly justify it? I actually think life becomes a lot more frightening when we start to consider what meaning could be behind this. That it was their intention for things to be this way! I actually think it's more reassuring that it could well just be chance that things turned out like this. I wish I was a convinced atheist.

 

[yellowjester]

The universe is it's own cause. There is nothing beyond or ouside of it.

 

[DarkRange55]

Have a cause if you mean cause and effect through causality and determinism then I believe so.

Antecedent events cause other events to happen. Like a chain of preexisting events that preceeds another.

Maybe try thinking of it more like a cycle of physical effects and physical causes.

I'm still confused about whether quantum theory describes the world as it is or is merely a mathematical model measuring probabilities. And from what I gather this dispute arises regarding the nature of measurement in quantum mechanics or quantum phenomena. Quantum mechanics in my stupid brain is not the root level of reality, but more of like the first few glimpses into something even deeper. Like how some objects the farther you go down (scale of size from atomic and even smaller) may not be influenced solely by their surroundings, and they may also lack definite properties prior to measurement or being "observed". But really precise knowledge at the quantum level is impossible. A big problem is reconciling it with the physical world. Like the biggest problem with quantum measurement in my mind is that it doesn't seem to give us an understanding of what is going on, but only tells us how to compute probabilities of events happening. Toss in the "observer" which is supposed to observe in such a way that doesn't cause a disturbance of an observed system by the act of observing it.

But I am an idiot who is terrible at math. Maybe when we observe something we are the physical cause and the physical effect of something happening in the quantum world. LOL If you're looking for a reason for God or a reason for anything to exist you can look in the quantum world for it but be wary because as soon as you observe it you might find that the universe is not locally real.

Here's a pretty cool video on it:



And just Sabine Hossenfelder simply because I enjoy her:

In the block omniverse, there is a cause - the universe can exist, and so it does exist.

Quantum mechanics describes what we can measure about the world, so it is at least a mathematical model predicting measurement probabilities.
Many quantum theories attempt to explain why the world is as it is and thus to give us an understanding of what is going on, but the only one that makes sense to me is the simplest, cleanest one, the block multiverse.

Of course I am a bit biased towards this theory...

 

[DarkRange55]

In the block omniverse, there is a cause - the universe can exist, and so it does exist.

Quantum mechanics describes what we can measure about the world, so it is at least a mathematical model predicting measurement probabilities.
Many quantum theories attempt to explain why the world is as it is and thus to give us an understanding of what is going on, but the only one that makes sense to me is the simplest, cleanest one, the block multiverse.

Of course I am a bit biased towards this theory...

The omniverse is everything that exists, so there is, by definition, nothing outside of it.
The simplest explanation for what we see (measure) is that everything that can exist exists in some universe of the multiverse.
The omniverse is thus not just everything that exists, but everything that can exist.
And the simplest explanation for that is that the potential to exist causes existence.

 

[G50]

I've heard at a quantum level things don't have to have a cause. So the universe could've "come from nowhere".

It is just hard to imagine a physical things appearing for no reason.

I can't help feeling it makes more sense for the "uncaused cause" to be something outside of time and space.

I'm not saying it's not true just because I don't understand it. But it is really hard to understand.

The sequence of cause and effect is something which happens within the flow of time.

Some new theories of physics are now considering how space and time themselves might be constructed from more fundamental elements (quantum entanglement plays a role in these theories). So these theories are looking at what may be beyond time, or outside the flow of time.

This is interesting, as some religions has postulated the existence on an eternal realm located beyond time and space.

From the perspective of eternity, all the events of history — past, present and future — exist all at once.

 

[tankapi]

The idea that God or a higher power created the universe begs the question, what caused the higher power to exist? It isn't an answer to why the universe exists.

 

[Placo]

After thinking about it for a long time, in my opinion the universe has always existed and will exist forever, in fact I am fascinated by Roger Penrose's idea of conformal cyclic cosmology which does not deny the Big Bang but denies that it is the beginning of everything, the Big Bang to me resemble a creationist notion, in fact it was a priest who first theorized the thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology

Even though lately I've been seeing suggested videos of Penrose on Youtube where he believes in a vague idea of a god of the universe even though I haven't watched them, he's still not an atheist but an agnostic.

For an atheist I ultimately believe the universe itself is God.

 

[mlha]

I am fascinated by Roger Penrose's idea of conformal cyclic cosmology which does not deny the Big Bang but denies that it is the beginning of everything,

In this sense, I'm fascinated by Black Hole Cosmology, a matryoshka doll of universes.

For an atheist I ultimately believe the universe itself is God.

That sounds to me like CTMU.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

Whatever the cause of the universe truly is, none can definitively say right now. I just can't shake the feeling that there is something hidden right in front of us. It must be something incredibly obvious that we are blind to.

 

[Darkover]

well i thought it all could be mathematics and we could be living in a simulation but my reasoning is that this place is real mathematics can do a lot but create emotion is something other than math still we don't know what create the natural laws of the universe like the speed of light or what governs them all we know for sure is the universe as a start and an end big bang we still don't know where all this matter came from in the first place some say it came into existence out of nothingness